More reasons tank items suck atm.

The thigh guy·Jul 12, 2019·35 votes·12,561 views

So almost none of them are gold efficient on their own.

So they are already inefficient buys.

Now take into account that 40% of their resistances simply do not work due to EVERY game, with or without anyone building tank stats, has %pen items in it.

It’s no wonder tanks are garbage right now. :/ we have the absolute worst items in the game, and the items that deal with us are so efficient that they are being build even when we aren’t in the game.

I have a wonderful example for you.

Sunfire capes raw stats make it 85% gold efficient roughly.

Now rip another 720 gold worth of stats off it.

That’s how you have to calculate EVERY tank item now.

51 Comments

SirPurrrJul 12, 20194 votes

you're forgetting passives

defensive items may be a bit on the weaker end but they're not terrible and tanks have special synergy from masteries and their kits

I think Deadman's & Frozen Heart could use a bit of help but others, such as Randuin's, Thornmail and Visage seem decent

The thigh guyJul 12, 20198 votes

{quoted}

you're forgetting passives

defensive items may be a bit on the weaker end but they're not terrible and tanks have special synergy from masteries and their kits

I think Deadman's & Frozen Heart could use a bit of help but others, such as Randuin's, Thornmail and Visage seem decent

I don’t think any synergy is worth your items averaging out to 60% gold efficiency after being shredded into the dirt by items that are already being build regardless of wether or not you’re in the game.

MarshbouyJul 13, 20193 votes

I love how you're casually forgetting that, post damage reduction, most offensive items are much less gold efficient as well.

The thigh guyJul 13, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I love how you're casually forgetting that, post damage reduction, most offensive items are much less gold efficient as well.

That’s not even close to true. You still get all of your stats. None of them are being taken away.

If you build and infinity edge, you are getting 111% of gold in stats.

If I build any tank item ever, I have to accept that I’m getting at most 60% efficiency.

And it’s not an if they build x. It’s a when they build x. These pen item are in EVERY game, even if there is no tank they, these items are in EVERY game.

People like to analyze say void staff as a 57% efficient item. But that’s not even close to true. Removing resistances is the equivalent of removing 1% of the enemies effective hp per resistance.

If you have say. 100 mr and they get void staff. You now have 40% less health than before. That’s not even a huge bar to cross.

BugogJul 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-13T02:40:16.593+0000)

That’s not even close to true. You still get all of your stats. None of them are being taken away.

If you build and infinity edge, you are getting 111% of gold in stats.

If I build any tank item ever, I have to accept that I’m getting at most 60% efficiency.

And it’s not an if they build x. It’s a when they build x. These pen item are in EVERY game, even if there is no tank they, these items are in EVERY game.

People like to analyze say void staff as a 57% efficient item. But that’s not even close to true. Removing resistances is the equivalent of removing 1% of the enemies effective hp per resistance.

If you have say. 100 mr and they get void staff. You now have 40% less health than before. That’s not even a huge bar to cross.

Void staff isn't the best example. I've been in too many games where no one builds an MR item, and in that case it's removing like 10 MR from someone (most champs have base 35 MR @18 if I remember correctly).

In that case it's best to just build sorc boots + the morello base item, which nets you 32 magic penetration, giving you almost true damage.

If someone builds a lot of MR then yeah voidstaff, but it's not an every game type thing.

I agree with the basic argument, but it's more of an issue with armor and not magic resist.

The thigh guyJul 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Void staff isn't the best example. I've been in too many games where no one builds an MR item, and in that case it's removing like 10 MR from someone (most champs have base 35 MR @18 if I remember correctly).

In that case it's best to just build sorc boots + the morello base item, which nets you 32 magic penetration, giving you almost true damage.

If someone builds a lot of MR then yeah voidstaff, but it's not an every game type thing.

I agree with the basic argument, but it's more of an issue with armor and not magic resist.

That’s the thing. They are building morello and sorc shoes as well. Every mage is currently building the exact same items.

Inari Fox OrrionJul 13, 20193 votes

40% mPen + 33 mPen, even on a tanky boi (lets use Pyke with his absurd MR of 57.5, so 57.5 - 40% = 34.5) will mean you're doing true damage to every champion in the game except for Talon, Pyke and Sylas if they're to build no MR at all. Talon is left with 3.18 magic resist, Pyke with 1.5, and Sylas with 1.44. It's especially potent mixed with Liandry+Rylai or Ludens (strange how that works...)

Oh, and Sudden Impact makes sure not even Talon, Pyke or Sylas are safe from true magic damage™. It becomes 40% + 40. It's why champions able to easily proc it are so frustrating to fight: they will, literally, nuke you before you can react unless you build one or two defensive items, and that's the source of peoples' bias when they say "defense DOES matter!" It's just because, after buying a negatron cloak, it now takes two whole rotations to kill you so you can nuke them before they nuke you.

How Riot had been screwing with magic penetration has had major backflow, and some people are too stupid to see why they think tank items matter when in the grand scheme of things, two single pieces of cloth armor will do the exact same. Tank items are bad. The way they've been fucking with armor penetration (lethality, etc.) and magic penetration is making it worse and creating a divide people are too stupid to bridge the gap between, and I'm sitting here laughing at them as the game suffers because of it.

Literally, tank items are so bad that people don't even bother to finish them because it has too little impact. They sit on a cloth armor all game because anything more has no noticeable impact on how much damage they can take in this burst-heavy meta.

MarshbouyJul 13, 20192 votes

That’s not even close to true. You still get all of your stats. None of them are being taken away.

the exact same thing applies to tank stats. When you build tank stats, you reduce the worth of their stats. When they build armor pen, the same happens.

The thigh guyJul 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

the exact same thing applies to tank stats. When you build tank stats, you reduce the worth of their stats. When they build armor pen, the same happens.

Not really. If I’ve gotten 6 stacks of black cleaver on me, I lose my armor against their entire team.

If I build armor, I’m only reducing the damage from those building ad and targeting me.

Xela SyabJul 13, 20196 votes

You're missing a huge problem. Damage gets you more gold by farming, killing, or destroying turrets, defensive stats don't help unless you're playing Rammus just because he gets a raw conversion of defensive to offensive stats.

MarshbouyJul 13, 20192 votes

Well, uh, yeah. That's how stats work. It's why tank items are generally cheaper, tanks are loaded with utility, and base damages are generally high (on champions that need to function solo or in jungle) - they are designed to be on a lower budget.

LordGeovanniJul 13, 20191 votes

Uh yeah thats how stats work. apply that to what you said about damage stats being worse when they are taken away from tank stats. Does it make sense yeah does it add anything to the conversation not one fuk

Xela SyabJul 13, 20192 votes

item 3047 Now look at this item, do tanks buy this item more than damage dealers? Your argument about tanks is flawed that they need worse items because they are overtuned, meanwhile we have mages in every lane and even in the jungle since they don't have to sacrifice on damage or utility or itemization. item 3157 The strongest damage mitigation item in the game was designed for mages, not for tanks.

MarshbouyJul 13, 20191 votes

angry man yells at sky

i literally have no idea what point you're trying to make in this comment.

Xela SyabJul 13, 20192 votes

ok Ninja Tabi is not for defense, it's for trading in fights adc's and bruisers buy this to gimp the enemy damage with the passive over dealing more damage with Zerks. Zhonyas isn't designed to make a mage actually tank it's an oh shit button if they get caught out or cc'd before they can 100-0 someone. So both of these items are strong with armor, but they aren't tank items. Meanwhile item 3110 item 3143 barely affect adcs and don't deal with ad casters and the items are expensive with little payout. There are no lategame tank items that effectively counter raw attack damage, item 3075 counters sustain and that's it.

voidscalerJul 14, 20192 votes

Ninja tabi is literally pure defence, that's all it does

voidscalerJul 14, 20192 votes

Damage reduction is t the norm though, most champions do not have the damage reduction as a result those gold efficiency values are normally correct Tanks are supposed to build the damage reduction and reduce the damage they take, but damage reduction is not only much more inneficient as a baseline then damage is, but there are also ways to reduce the amount of damage reduction, doubling up the inefficiency

Exin0Jul 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Damage reduction is t the norm though, most champions do not have the damage reduction as a result those gold efficiency values are normally correct Tanks are supposed to build the damage reduction and reduce the damage they take, but damage reduction is not only much more inneficient as a baseline then damage is, but there are also ways to reduce the amount of damage reduction, doubling up the inefficiency

damege reduction can only work if you dont have infinite damage source due to CDR and insane AS, you just mitigate first round of burst only to be bursted down by same champion second later.

Sire HippingtonJul 13, 201913 votes

cause other items don't have passives?

Duskblade is 91% gold efficient with two strong passives IE is 111% effective without the increased crit damage BC is 100% effective without the passives Trinity is 97% efficent without the passives Sojin is 97% effective without the passive Ludens is 104% effective without the proc

And don't try to tell me those items have worse passives than the tank items...

Hong Kong AnnieJul 13, 20199 votes

Duskblade's vision passive is probably the strongest passive in the game, and it is still more gold efficient then most tank items.

True GarenJul 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

you're forgetting passives

defensive items may be a bit on the weaker end but they're not terrible and tanks have special synergy from masteries and their kits

I think Deadman's & Frozen Heart could use a bit of help but others, such as Randuin's, Thornmail and Visage seem decent

Since you brought it up...

What kind of a buff is +10 armour for Randuins? Seriously?

In general, yeah, the item is a better buy than it was a few months ago, because of other things... Adding 10 Armour to it, doesn't feel like it's made any difference. Would rather they lowered the cost (the original idea), boosted the HP, lowered the item CD... any of these...

Exin0Jul 14, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2019-07-14T18:17:39.317+0000)

Since you brought it up...

What kind of a buff is +10 armour for Randuins? Seriously?

In general, yeah, the item is a better buy than it was a few months ago, because of other things... Adding 10 Armour to it, doesn't feel like it's made any difference. Would rather they lowered the cost (the original idea), boosted the HP, lowered the item CD... any of these...

cosmetic changes to shut people mouth nothing else.

Mitsuk3Jul 13, 20193 votes

Vayne don't give a fuck

mack9112Jul 12, 20192 votes

Idk in my coordinated matches the team with the tanky frontline seems to come out on top.

My zac ramnus sej Nunu junglers are still pretty strong and tank supports are pretty good too.

The ultimate issue is tanks struggle to be in top lane because that lane is designed around dueling so if you are a tank while also being a strong duelist then you are usually busted... aka tahm

Tahminatrix Jul 12, 20194 votes

All of those champions have some pretty decent damage potential for tanks, regardless of if they actually build damage. Malphite Amumu Galio I almost always see building damage instead of tank stats and its understandable why, an ap amumu has burst potential, a full tank amumu doesn't do anything after he ults.

This is also an issue with aftershock since the duration simply doesn't reward you for building full tank, having an extra 2 seconds to live when you were already gonna last several isn't a big difference compared to when you would only last 1 or 2.

I even saw galio building no magic resist against a team that has 4 magical damage dealers..he was just rushing ap and magic pen.

mack9112Jul 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-12T21:48:01.200+0000)

All of those champions have some pretty decent damage potential for tanks, regardless of if they actually build damage. I almost always see building damage instead of tank stats and its understandable why, an ap amumu has burst potential, a full tank amumu doesn't do anything after he ults.

This is also an issue with aftershock since the duration simply doesn't reward you for building full tank, having an extra 2 seconds to live when you were already gonna last several isn't a big difference compared to when you would only last 1 or 2.

I even saw galio building no magic resist against a team that has 4 magical damage dealers..he was just rushing ap and magic pen.

Infersting enough though tank amumu has the better winrate compared to his tank side.

Malphote burst is such a risk as it falls off super hard.

Galio is an interesting champion but he has a lot of changes rolling through so we will see how he lands.

Sire HippingtonJul 13, 20191 votes

The issue with toplane tanks isn't the dueling, I either win or stay even in most matchups with picks like orn or nauti, the issue is that you don't scale well with the gold compared to other picks, which is why those champs work in the low econ positions of sup and jungle as the CC they provide will always be relevant.

mack9112Jul 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-07-13T00:08:59.892+0000)

The issue with toplane tanks isn't the dueling, I either win or stay even in most matchups with picks like orn or nauti, the issue is that you don't scale well with the gold compared to other picks, which is why those champs work in the low econ positions of sup and jungle as the CC they provide will always be relevant.

But the team fight potential of tanks far exceeds the same oriented top laners.

Renekton is a great example as he is only relevant mid to late game if he has a lead.

The thigh guyJul 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

But the team fight potential of tanks far exceeds the same oriented top laners.

Renekton is a great example as he is only relevant mid to late game if he has a lead.

Tanks aren’t really relevant in team fights either.

They can’t stay alive long enough to be of any real impact.

Another good example of this is Malphite. He ults in. Gets a 5 man knock up. Instantly dies after because his armor doesn’t get to exist. Now his team is 4v5

mack9112Jul 13, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-13T00:43:42.127+0000)

Tanks aren’t really relevant in team fights either.

They can’t stay alive long enough to be of any real impact.

Another good example of this is Malphite. He ults in. Gets a 5 man knock up. Instantly dies after because his armor doesn’t get to exist. Now his team is 4v5

Tanks are incredibly important in a team fight I am shocked hear you do not agree with that.

With correct item building and positioning you will make or break team fights.

You engage with 5 man malph ult you have a yas and he ults off it as an example you diving acting as the distraction to force them to deal with you. Course if you just ult in with no help from your team what do you honestly expect no champion should be able to face tank 5 champions indefinitely.

Cordinating with your team to correctly use your cc will allow for far easier wins that taking 5 damage dealers and expecting to come out on top.

Just recently had a great game as a zac with a cho and our combined frontline smashed the opposing team that built a damage heavy comp since our cc and tankiness prevented them from getting to our carries.

ApocalypsicJul 13, 20191 votes

If a malphite got a five man knock up then that team fight should be over unless your team is incompetent.

Sire HippingtonJul 13, 20192 votes

Thing is, you first have to find proper teamfights which in soloQ is not easy, especially with the poor state of vision. And even then, without proper coordination, most fighters that just solokill a misspositioned opponent can impact fights better than tanks while haveing the option for splitpushing. Esepcially picks like Irelia or Camile can totally wreak chaotic fights as they usually happen in soloQ. And even in coordinated play, you rarly see toplane tanks in proplay this season, a sion or orn here and there and that's it. you don't need items on them to bring the initiation potential, and that's basically all you want from them, so they are palyed sup or jungle instead. And for the Renekton example: If he doesn't have a lead in the midgame, then he's bad and has no one else to blame. I play a lot renekton, and it's nearly impossible to **not **have a lead if you know what you do and most games end befor he falls of.

mack9112Jul 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2019-07-13T01:10:45.958+0000)

Thing is, you first have to find proper teamfights which in soloQ is not easy, especially with the poor state of vision. And even then, without proper coordination, most fighters that just solokill a misspositioned opponent can impact fights better than tanks while haveing the option for splitpushing. Esepcially picks like Irelia or Camile can totally wreak chaotic fights as they usually happen in soloQ. And even in coordinated play, you rarly see toplane tanks in proplay this season, a sion or orn here and there and that's it. you don't need items on them to bring the initiation potential, and that's basically all you want from them, so they are palyed sup or jungle instead. And for the Renekton example: If he doesn't have a lead in the midgame, then he's bad and has no one else to blame. I play a lot renekton, and it's nearly impossible to **not **have a lead if you know what you do and most games end befor he falls of.

The reality is they cannot compete with the top lane fighters but how do you possibly have a tank he good top lane ?

Top laners need to be able to win lane as he Lane is meant to snowball to make up for the inability to interact with the rest of the game in a meaningful way for a good chunk. If a top can win lane and then just be a good tank in teamfights then they are op.

Basic team coordination is not difficult and I perform it on a daily basis and I’m just a gold scrub. ( almost plat though )

Nar7iaJul 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Idk in my coordinated matches the team with the tanky frontline seems to come out on top.

Same here. I feel like I have much easier time winning when my team has a tank while the enemy team doesn't. I don't know why these boards keep calling tanks a garbage class, it's really difficult to teamfight in soloQ without them.

Inari Fox OrrionJul 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I ~~don't~~ know why these boards keep calling tanks a garbage class, it's really difficult to teamfight in soloQ ~~without them.~~

Nar7iaJul 16, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitsuné Orrion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jd9Rf9Bt,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2019-07-13T15:53:50.151+0000) I ~~don't~~ know why these boards keep calling tanks a garbage class, it's really difficult to teamfight in ~~soloQ~~ without them.

Yeah no. Lost plenty of games because lack of tanks and won plenty of games because enemy team had no tanks. Tanks are far more important than people on this board would like to admit.

Inari Fox OrrionJul 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah no. Lost plenty of games because lack of tanks and won plenty of games because enemy team had no tanks. Tanks are far more important than people on this board would like to admit.

Someone to engage for you is more important than people would like to admit, sure. Tanks? Not so much.

Exin0Jul 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Idk in my coordinated matches the team with the tanky frontline seems to come out on top.

My zac ramnus sej Nunu junglers are still pretty strong and tank supports are pretty good too.

The ultimate issue is tanks struggle to be in top lane because that lane is designed around dueling so if you are a tank while also being a strong duelist then you are usually busted... aka tahm

tanky and tank isnt same.

DragonSheaJul 13, 20192 votes

Tanks should be unkillable if the enemy team doesn't build any tank buster items. Not be a free kill.

The thigh guyJul 13, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Tanks should be unkillable if the enemy team doesn't build any tank buster items. Not be a free kill.

I agree. But you should be sacrificing something for that tank killing power.

Best example of this is black cleaver and void staff.

These items are in EVERY game regardless of whether or not a tank is there.

voidscalerJul 14, 20192 votes

Not only is armour only about 40% effective due to pen, but as games go on % health damage gets bigger and bigger meaning every point of health becomes less effective as well If you buy 100 health in the early game only around 5 of that is lost to % damage, in the late game you can say goodbye to closer to 35% in pure % health damage

The thigh guyJul 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Not only is armour only about 40% effective due to pen, but as games go on % health damage gets bigger and bigger meaning every point of health becomes less effective as well If you buy 100 health in the early game only around 5 of that is lost to % damage, in the late game you can say goodbye to closer to 35% in pure % health damage

Don’t forget as well. The more health you build in general, the more that guy who has a Bork gets to heal. :D

AceNinja1993Jul 12, 20191 votes

i normally build tank in my games and it works just fine only time it doesnt is when whole team jumps on me but again me bing tank and they focus me is whole point let the weak hp/def/mr do damage while tank takes the brute force even if results in death and it doesnt matter the tank i am building like i do tank items work main thing is which order to acquire to work efficiently there in lies the question whether it be SR or Aram order of items bought can save or harm u

Bork is the only thing that breaks through np even if have thornmail its op on tank compared to reflect damage

ƒrostγJul 13, 20191 votes

I agree however a lot of the tanks have really high burst damage right now. Imagine making them even more tanky, that would solve nothing.

ToshinouJul 13, 20191 votes

Bruiser items sucks too but better rework mage and adc items 4times in row

The thigh guyJul 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Bruiser items sucks too but better rework mage and adc items 4times in row

Triforce Black cleaver Deaths dance Steraks gage Titanic hydra

Yeah no. Bruiser items are arguably just as good if not better than mage items.

ToshinouJul 14, 20192 votes

For price of triforce you can have 2 mage items, black cleaver is bad, sterak gage was nerfed, deaths dance is cool item but not very cool since every mage oneshot you with full hp, both hydras are weak af but yeah these items are sure stronger than mage items that is why mages oneshoting everyone while having hp like tanks and mages can choose wich items they build while bruisers have 3 items to choose from also imagine bruisers having item with +40% ad that would be sure overpowered but on mages its completely okay

The thigh guyJul 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

For price of triforce you can have 2 mage items, black cleaver is bad, sterak gage was nerfed, deaths dance is cool item but not very cool since every mage oneshot you with full hp, both hydras are weak af but yeah these items are sure stronger than mage items that is why mages oneshoting everyone while having hp like tanks and mages can choose wich items they build while bruisers have 3 items to choose from also imagine bruisers having item with +40% ad that would be sure overpowered but on mages its completely okay

Are you actually about to argue that black cleaver is a bad item? And that sterak’s gage is a bad item. These are LITERALLY, 2 of the top 5 best items in the game and are the main reasons why bruisers are better than tanks at being tanks. -.-

ToshinouJul 14, 20191 votes

3 best items in game are rod of ages, zhonya, rabadon also dont forget protobelt who is cheap af but yeah on NA sterak and black cleaver can be better because its NA

The thigh guyJul 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

3 best items in game are rod of ages, zhonya, rabadon also dont forget protobelt who is cheap af but yeah on NA sterak and black cleaver can be better because its NA

Wait wait wait wait wait. Are you actually about to argue that rod of ages is a top tier item at the moment?

Holy shit man...... idk what to tell you. You need to find Jesus or something. League balance just isn’t your thing man.