Daily reminder that Athene's unholy grail is garbage

The Deckowner·Apr 23, 2017·37 votes·7,942 views

rework this item so it actually makes you feel like you have it in your inventory pls.

72 Comments

MinaZer0Apr 23, 20176 votes

it isnt garbage.. faker just used it on lulu mid today in their playoff finals, it just has a specific niche that is barely filled so it isnt even used or worth getting over another item like item 3107 item 3222 item 3190 often even on enchanters, I do agree it needs to be changed to fit a better "majority" minded perspective instead of a niche. highly specific team comp in a Pro level game..

chipndip1Apr 23, 20174 votes

Yeah, Lulu MID, where the person building it can do dmg. That's the problem. Sups aren't allowed to hurt people, so how is Athene's going to be useful to SUPPORTS?

EschetonApr 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Lulu MID, where the person building it can do dmg. That's the problem. Sups aren't allowed to hurt people, so how is Athene's going to be useful to SUPPORTS?

You build it on a tank support that took Bond of Stone so they can provide burst healing as well. Sion item 2303 item 3109 item 3174

Or off-supportive midlaners like Ori or Morgana

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

I'm so close to legitimately insulting your whole lifestyle with what you just showed me in this post.

This STILL doesn't negate the issue of not having enough damage output to make the purchase worth anything, and to boot you have Knight's Vow...aka "Locket's second fiddle".

EschetonApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm so close to legitimately insulting your whole lifestyle with what you just showed me in this post.

This STILL doesn't negate the issue of not having enough damage output to make the purchase worth anything, and to boot you have Knight's Vow...aka "Locket's second fiddle".

No, locket doesn't allow the adc to heal the invinceable support-tank. Have you actually considered the items?

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

Slightly closer now.

Have you ever considered that Knight's Vow only mitigates 12 damage per 100 damage taken on your carries? Have you considered that Locket does a WAY better job at protecting entire teams from damage, let alone one target? Why build Knight's Vow when your job is to protect carries, given Locket does THAT better?

EschetonApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Slightly closer now.

Have you ever considered that Knight's Vow only mitigates 12 damage per 100 damage taken on your carries? Have you considered that Locket does a WAY better job at protecting entire teams from damage, let alone one target? Why build Knight's Vow when your job is to protect carries, given Locket does THAT better?

Your kit protects the carries. Knights Vow keeps the wall of meat protecting the carries alive. You are misreading the uses of pretty much all items, then complaining they don't do that thing another item does. Locket is a good item on most support. Knights Vow is better on some. But also, Locket is single use, long cooldown. Not good for anything but all-in teamfights. It just does that quite well. But that isn't the only situation to deal with.

chipndip1Apr 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Your kit protects the carries. Knights Vow keeps the wall of meat protecting the carries alive. You are misreading the uses of pretty much all items, then complaining they don't do that thing another item does.

You DO realize that support tanks aren't that tanky, right?

You DO realize that Knight's Vow's main purpose isn't to make a support have proxy life steal more than it's to use the support as a "bonus life bar" for someone he's tied to, which can be "refilled" through the proxy life steal, right?

You DO realize that the point of Knight's Vow is to mitigate damage to the person you're tied to by using your health when they take damage, not to just give you life steal, right?

Locket is a good item on most support. Knights Vow is better on some. But also, Locket is single use, long cooldown. Not good for anything but all-in teamfights. It just does that quite well. But that isn't the only situation to deal with.

Silver 2 non support main tells Diamond 4 support main that Knight's Vow is occasionally stronger than Locket. I know you're going to get mad about "rank shaming" but there's no other way to frame just how PREPOSTEROUS your claim is at this point.

EschetonApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You DO realize that support tanks aren't that tanky, right?

You DO realize that Knight's Vow's main purpose isn't to make a support have proxy life steal more than it's to use the support as a "bonus life bar" for someone he's tied to, which can be "refilled" through the proxy life steal, right?

You DO realize that the point of Knight's Vow is to mitigate damage to the person you're tied to by using your health when they take damage, not to just give you life steal, right?

Silver 2 non support main tells Diamond 4 support main that Knight's Vow is occasionally stronger than Locket. I know you're going to get mad about "rank shaming" but there's no other way to frame just how PREPOSTEROUS your claim is at this point.

I play about 30 ranked games a year. Only care about the end of year reward. How many did you need to get to Diamond? Rank shaming only works on people stuck in their elo.

And what the "point" of an item is, and how an item actually works in the meta aren't always the same. Knights Vow exists to make tank supports with aggresive adc viable. Not to sit back and reduce dmg. Thats what passive items like Locket or Redemption are for. Sit back and click something.

And who is talking about auto attacking? Who needs to auto attack?

Yes, these are not items for Janna/Soraka. Other supports exist. Stop saying something is useless because you can't use it. It sounds really dumb and takes away from your points.

chipndip1Apr 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I play about 30 ranked games a year. Only care about the end of year reward. How many did you need to get to Diamond?

Me putting in the time to get to the top percentile of my server doesn't change the fact that I supported mostly solo to get to the top percentile of my server. Also, it took 300, then I demoted, then I climbed back.

Regardless, the amount of games it took me to climb three tiers above yours doesn't change the fact that, by all implications, you have no grounds to stand on making a claim over mine about a role I play and you don't.

Rank shaming only works on people stuck in their elo.

I guess it's nice it won't hurt your feelings, but that doesn't change the notion that there's no real weight to what you're saying, nor does it change the fact that what you're saying is..."highly debatable.

And what the "point" of an item is, and how an item actually works in the meta aren't always the same.

...but that IS HOW IT WORKS IN THIS INSTANCE ANYWAY.

Knights Vow exists to make tank supports with aggresive adc viable. Not to sit back and reduce dmg. Thats what passive items like Locket or Redemption are for. Sit back and click something.

You're pulling this shit out of your ass and you need to stop. Stop making up romanticized "Raison D'êtres" to frame Knight's Vow as something useful. You can have your adc go in aggressively with a bigger shield value than Knight's Vow could match with its passive damage mitigation given the max health your adc has so long as you have the mental capacity to "click something" on time. So with this fact in mind, why on Earth would one build Knight's Vow? You and everyone around you, including your adc, get that shield + that shield has more potential health value than Knight's Vow can spare given an adc's ENTIRE HP BAR AT LEVEL 18 by the time you hit level 10 unless that marksman built more HP...PER PERSON SHIELDED. What on Teemo's unholy Rift could Knight's Vow accomplish that can match that? "Oh, my marksman AA'd you for 200 damage. I got 24 HP BACK! WORTH!"

And who is talking about auto attacking? Who needs to auto attack?

...WHAT?

Yes, these are not items for Janna/Soraka. Other supports exist. Stop saying something is useless because you can't use it. It sounds really dumb and takes away from your points.

I made an entire thread to provide the entire logic around why Knight's Vow is filler in comparison to Locket. If you choose to build it anyway, have fun.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fPPeTObW-im-calling-it-here-knights-vow-is-hawt-gaabage-dont-buy-it-over-locket-using-actual-logic

MrHaZeYoApr 24, 20171 votes

Dam he just toasted you.

Redemp + Locket > Everything else a support can build. If you're not building them at some point in the game, if not right after SS/Boots, you're doing something wrong.

EschetonApr 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Dam he just toasted you.

Redemp + Locket > Everything else a support can build. If you're not building them at some point in the game, if not right after SS/Boots, you're doing something wrong.

If he was getting even remotely any of the points, maybe. But given that he misinterprets every single thing to fit his own narrative...no. For instance, tank supports are in fact tanky. You just need one with a self shield so while the shield is up, they heal their hp back up with Knights and just high base regen. Think champs like Sion Nautilus TahmKench

Don't get me wrong, Redemp and Locket are good. They are just not always first item good.

MrHaZeYoApr 24, 20171 votes

It's not that I don't think Knight's Vow is a good item, because it is. It just isn't as good as the other two combo'd together.

Locket can shield your entire team while Redemption can heal your whole team and slightly damage them. While also granting you better Shielding and Healing. Which both helps with both items actives and helps with your shields (assuming your playing one of those 3 champs support).

Let's assume your 1st four items are: item 2303 item 3047 item 3107 item 3190 . You now have 800 HP, 60 Armor, 60 MR, 20 CDR, 175% HP Regen, 125 Mana Regen, 10% Heal and Sheild Power, + the two actives and 12% AA reduction.

You now have the basic stats you need to be a second grade tank, while also having a crap load of utility and decent stats.

I think item 3109 is a good next item followed by (if you ever happen to get to a last item on a tank support) another tank item. But that early unless your ADC is fed beyond relief, you're better off with the the standard 4 items. Even if your Luc is super Fed, the Aegis shield is prolly still needed.

Weasel KenseiApr 23, 20171 votes

Stoneborn Pact... not Bond of Stone.

Bond of Stone doesnt exist anymore.

HeroquetApr 23, 20173 votes

Sona is an awesome user because of her super low CD on both damage / shield + passive. You get a lot of charges from an ult too. But really they need to increase the blood charge generation from 20% to 100% (or even more) for autoattacks, that way you give Janna / Soraka a reason to built it and be interactive, put themselves in danger and use auto attacks past lvl 6. And still getting rewarded for that.

Same way Bard / Karma / Lulu / Thresh / Ivern / Rakan (maybe, can't asses yet the risk level for him to do that) have a passive that rewards auto attacks and don't make them 100% ability reliant (Janna / Raka / Nami).

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

"I'm Soraka. I hit you with a 70 damage AA so I can add 70 healing to my W. I could have just built all the heal/shield multiplier items that'd raise it by a full 40% on top of Windspeaker's 10%, but THIS is my real calling. Did I mention I don't have a Locket?"

I honestly think Athene's and its current passive will never have a space in a rift with Redemption and Locket both in it. One of those items needs to go to the dumpster, honestly. It's too much aoe healing/shielding to pass up, and no other support item is going to come close to that defensive power.

EschetonApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"I'm Soraka. I hit you with a 70 damage AA so I can add 70 healing to my W. I could have just built all the heal/shield multiplier items that'd raise it by a full 40% on top of Windspeaker's 10%, but THIS is my real calling. Did I mention I don't have a Locket?"

I honestly think Athene's and its current passive will never have a space in a rift with Redemption and Locket both in it. One of those items needs to go to the dumpster, honestly. It's too much aoe healing/shielding to pass up, and no other support item is going to come close to that defensive power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZkCPo7tC0

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

Too bad your argument's not that strong to begin with. Why waste time getting in range to AA a target on someone squishy like Janna/Soraka when you can build to get beefier, get WAY MORE team sustain and damage mitigation, ALL WHILE INCREASING YOUR HEAL/SHIELD POWER BY % PER HEAL, rather than just one puff of bonus healing?

Like, you can increase the TOTAL VALUE of Janna's ult healing by 50% rather than just "an AAs premitigated damage worth". Explain that with a snarky YT video.

Weasel KenseiApr 23, 20171 votes

Too bad your argument's not that strong to begin with.

Numbers dont lie, its a high win% item, check out the graph... http://www.lolking.net/items/3174

Currently at a 53% win rate, if this were a champ it would be considered overpowered.

Why waste time getting in range to AA a target on someone squishy like Janna/Soraka...

Why do u have to get in aa range, or aa them? Its 20% of pre-mitigation damage... I mean aa's count, but they arnt the only damage that contributes to the charges...

chipndip1Apr 24, 20171 votes

I was responding to someone else's hypothetical scenario where there'd be 100% value on the premitigated damage from AAs.
So your stats say this item's fucking amazing, then? It CLEARLY isn't.

You don't know how statistics work. You took the win % without any context and made a claim. You disregarded that the popularity stat is less than 1%, and to boot, the most popular build combo clearly shows an AP Sona build, which doesn't negate the notion that the item requires something that support players aren't willing to put the gold down for to get, which is AP.

Weasel KenseiApr 24, 20171 votes

I dont like your stats, and they dont fit my preconceived notions, so they dont count.

Classy.

Hmm, not a lot of people build it....

Heres some other low popularity items.

item 3033 http://www.lolking.net/items/3033 (not very common) item 3036 http://www.lolking.net/items/3036 (also not very common) item 3092 http://www.lolking.net/items/3092 (built less than Athenes, in some cases lower than 0.00%) item 3102 http://www.lolking.net/items/3102 (special note, this is less popular than Athenes, wins more games) item 3083 http://www.lolking.net/items/3083 (even less popular than Banshees, with some obscene win rates)

Those low popularity items.. man, there is actual a lot of them.. so they must all be trash. Or, people who build niche items know how to build to win, and therefore low popularity items that only a few champions build for certain reasons give them an advantage when they do.

So all those low popularity items, thats why theyre called niche items. Not appealing to everyone, but very good to those who want it.

As for disregarding things, at the top it shows champs that use it and apparently Ivern is using it at an 18% popularity with a 61% win rate, Lux at 9% popularity and 55% win rate, then Nami at 20% popularity draging the item down with 49% win rate. So yeah, clearly only Sona builds it...

It seems you have a fixed opinion on the item. One that seems to be almost wholly grounded in opinion. I guess one mans trash is another mans treasure... a game winning niche item treasure.

When you walk around in the world only seeing what you want, you never really see whats real.

chipndip1Apr 24, 20171 votes

I've taken too many stats classes to go around in circles on something like this. You can build Athene's until you're B5, honestly. It doesn't hurt me.

KiokamiApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Lulu MID, where the person building it can do dmg. That's the problem. Sups aren't allowed to hurt people, so how is Athene's going to be useful to SUPPORTS?

supports arent allowed to hurt people?

Bard would like some words with you.

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

Yeah at level 2 with T. Lord's...not in the mid game or late game.

KiokamiApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah at level 2 with T. Lord's...not in the mid game or late game.

depends on how good you are at not getting caught and how well you collect meeps.

aggro Q max bard is strong all the way till real late game as long as you collect chimes and stun when youre supposed to.

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

I'm calling EXTREME bullshit on that.

"I build no AP but my meeps alone do MASSIVE damage until real late game."

KiokamiApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm calling EXTREME bullshit on that.

"I build no AP but my meeps alone do MASSIVE damage until real late game."

meeps spawn very quickly, and its very easy to have 70+ meeps by 25 mins.

once you get up to 70+ with tlords and item 3025 , you can chunk squishies for 1/3 of their hp with a q+AA alone.

not saying he's gonna do damage like ahri or lux, but as far as supports go, he's definitely one of the higher damage dealing ones.

and he also has a stupid amount of utility which is also free damage.

chipndip1Apr 23, 20171 votes

70 meeps in 25 minutes. Yeah, there's no point in wasting my time here.

KiokamiApr 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

70 meeps in 25 minutes. Yeah, there's no point in wasting my time here.

If you aren't a bard main you just don't get it. It's alright my man

MinaZer0Apr 24, 20171 votes

yea its like on of those items where very niche champions use it like Orianna , but as I said, isn't worth getting over item 3165 item 3285 item 3157 item 3089 which is pretty standard on her, I'd even get item 3048 before I got item 3174 .. and why would you (atleast in SoloQ) because disjointed teams exist.

Oh and you act other champions don't build those items (in Pro play) which is what we are talking about, usually the Jungler can/does as well.

AgeOfTheMageApr 28, 20171 votes

Athenes is a great item for orianna support.

chipndip1Apr 28, 20171 votes

Great shit is still shit.

ErockandrollApr 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=ILittle IMonster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JPFgQ9Ja,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-04-23T05:15:14.797+0000)

it isnt garbage.. faker just used it on lulu mid today in their playoff finals, it just has a specific niche that is barely filled so it isnt even used or worth getting over another item like often even on enchanters, I do agree it needs to be changed to fit a better "majority" minded perspective instead of a niche. highly specific team comp in a Pro level game..

Athene's is pretty much disposition to be an mid lane enchanter item. You get a stronger heal if you do more damage, making that passive more effective on a carry than a regular support. Also, the mana font passive can be useful when combined with Blue buff, since it gives a big boost in regeneration.

But despite all that, the item's stat line and gold cost pretty much speak to being a support item. Yet supports arn't going to have the damage to fill the passive effectively, and they have many more alternatives to that.

SpecterVonBarenApr 23, 20171 votes

Dude, Mikaels is almost as bad as Ohmwrecker at this point, no one buys it.

The DeckownerApr 24, 20171 votes

Yeah so like 2 or 3 champion can effectively use this item until Rito eventually nerf them, because said champions are straight up broken and dominating pro play atm.

Tribbles FoxfolkApr 23, 20175 votes

Athene's would actually be a good item if everything didn't have CDR these days. For a support that can also DPS (and thus, use Grail) like Sona, that 20% is completely wasted because of your Forbidden Idol items.

I think the amount of CDR in general needs to be scaled back and the effect of Athene's slightly buffed.

The DeckownerApr 24, 20171 votes

idrc about the cdr, but the heal just feels so shit. To get a 200 hp heal you need to do 1k dmg, and most shielding/healing supports can't do that Soraka Janna , only the broken champions can utilise this item Lulu .

Tribbles FoxfolkApr 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JPFgQ9Ja,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-04-24T04:36:54.088+0000)

idrc about the cdr, but the heal just feels so shit. To get a 200 hp heal you need to do 1k dmg, and most shielding/healing supports can't do that , only the broken champions can utilise this item .

A) Soraka can do that. Her Q is on a low CD and can do damage to multiple champions at once. Infuse also hits multiple champs, and potentially twice. Janna's a different story, but I'm pretty sure Ardent Censer attacks from friendlies builds Athene's stacks. Don't quote me on that, though, because I haven't checked the interaction.

B) I do agree that the heal-to-damage ratio is kind of off, but at the same time, it's 5 damage per 1 point of healing. It's not that bad, since Soraka could easily do 150-200/champ by the time she has the item. 200/champ in a teamfight would be a +200 heal from Athene's on ~6s CD, if not less. In a 10 second teamfight, it's very possible that Athene's would grant +400 healing, which is a lot. In a trading lane, it's a little more difficult to build charge, but Soraka's Q is really forgiving and deals a surprising amount of damage with low AP. (Soraka was a really bad example to choose, mate.)

C) Lulu's really good, but I think the meta just favors her too much right now. Assassins and Divers are simply too popular to not have at least one anti-Assassin pick, and Lulu does that and more. (Did you see LCS? Lulu was picked a bunch into Assassins and hyper-mobile champs. Shut a ton of them down constantly. Was fun to watch, actually.)

D) The CDR is a good stat, Forbidden Idol just has no right to give CDR to 3 items. It's ridiculous how early you can get 40% as a support. Remove CDR from Forbidden Idol and it will buff Athene's indirectly.

The DeckownerApr 24, 20171 votes

On theory if you can land multiple target starcall on soraka you can charge it very fast, but a problem with that is the max amount of bloodcharge scales off level, and supoorts are always underlevelled. You might think you are getting 200 heal except u get like 150. Also usually Soraka need to position behind the adc to stay safe, which means you will moatly just be hitting enemy frontlines.

Lulu is picked cuz she is good into everything, not just assassins and divers. polymorth cucks EVERYTHING, shielding counters EVERY CHAMP. She is literally first picked every game even into 0 assassin ball comps, she's just disgusting.

CavemanteroApr 23, 20172 votes

no shit. I used to build it all the time...now with the item 3145 items and item 3285 it passed over.

MrHaZeYoApr 23, 20172 votes

I wouldn't say that's why you don't pick it.

Prolly cause it moved from a Mid Lane item to a Support focused Item.

Very Hard EngageApr 23, 20171 votes

except sustain is not what supports want anymore, especially with it being about hard engage these days.

MrHaZeYoApr 23, 20173 votes

Lol what? We're in a meta of Enchantresses, Karma, Lulu, Nami, Raka and Janna can all get full usefulness out of Athenes, the problem is why build it doing the point you'd want it (lane phase) when you need SS, Locket, and Redemp. Then why build it over Ardent Censor.

I do think the problem is they made it a support item, Now Morello is the go to item, there isn't even decision.

Very Hard EngageApr 23, 20171 votes

karma speed boost

lulu whimsy and ult

nami bubble and wave

raka silence

janna * knockback*

none of those champs are picked for sustain reasons. they want the instant cc/peel.

otherwise why aren't sona or taric must picks?

MrHaZeYoApr 23, 20171 votes

Everyone of those champs have abilities they spam for lane dominance.

The MANA SUSTAIN of Athenes would help them a lot, plus their heals/sheilds would be stronger with Athenes.

Very Hard EngageApr 23, 20171 votes

im not denying them the parts of their kits. im saying they're picked for their instant CC.

their sustain/poke is an afterthought.

MrHaZeYoApr 24, 20171 votes

Ya, I think we got off topic then cause I clearly stated in the post you quoted, why would you build Athenes after your SS, Boots, Redemp, Locket over Ardent, or Mikalis. By that point Athenes isn't as useful.

Very Hard EngageApr 24, 20171 votes

its just not useful period. even for the cdr or sustain. its outclassed by the starting items for its own sustain. (mountain coin and FQ) and if you want raw CDR theres boots for that. sups dont need either stat that badly. they want to enable their kits, especially when the fights over in 1 rotation anyway.