A (very) weird alternative to the traditional support playstyle which I absolutely love

Mister Support··59 votes·4,915 views

Going to start off by saying, people have been saying that (with some truth) that with the increase in game speed and all that the FEEL of playing support has become that of being less impactful in games. And this I somewhat agree. There are plenty of matches where if some lane starts to get in trouble, I can't do much to affect it if my allies don't have the damage to follow up with any peel or engage I make.

Now, I'm not going to suggest going some full damage support or ask Riot to make supports outright stronger, because that is just hopeful and stupid (supports are not meant to deal damage, they are meant to support allies in one aspect, usually in utility). So instead, I've been thinking and experimenting a bit to find out what silly thing randomly works way too well from normal. And I've found it!

Now, this is where a LOT of people will disagree with me. But my idea is simply one little change...take smite. It can be summoner 3 summoner 11 or summoner 11 summoner 4 or summoner 11 summoner 14 it's situational, but just hear me out.

  1. Smiting wolf and raptor camp are great when it comes to granting or removing vision. DO THIS IN THE ENEMY JUNGLE, NOT YOUR OWN. It will starve the enemy jungle and help your entire team, especially with the wolf smite, since it is guaranteed to tell whether or not the enemy is in that portion of the map. Raptor camp is essentially a free upgraded sweeper for vision denial as well. Also makes taking Scuttler easier.

  2. Can pressure dragon without needing your jungler. If you are able to force the enemy lane out of bot, you can turn to take dragon fast.

  3. Can take jungle camps very fast to get you and your carry ahead just that much faster. Or if you have some clear, take it for yourself and give yourself that gold and experience you've always wanted.

  4. item 3706 and item 3711 are surprisingly decent items for support use. One of them will add to pick or peel potential, while the other is essentially a replacement to item 2049 . And the upgrades are very nice whether its item 1409 or item 1410 .

  5. Strong mana regeneration early game just for sitting partially in the jungle after picking up item 1039 .

  6. Potential to smite steal away the buff camp from the enemy jungler at level 1. (all games I've done this successfully so far).

  7. Ease of 20-minute baron. A second smite, no explanation needed.

  8. Provides a good source of catching up in experience in the mid-late game.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2131197824/215026110?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2130713185/215026110?tab=stats

Note for both of these games, my overall vision control by view of wards was better or on par with the enemy's, but look at the number of monsters I took directly from the enemy.

Here's a Braum game: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2132100173/215026110?tab=overview

Nami: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2132149740/215026110?tab=overview

Nautilus: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2132306410/215026110?tab=overview What do you guys think?

85 Comments

OurLestrade21 votes

This sounds pretty interesting actually... I don't think I'll be allowed to try it without getting screamed at, but who knows? Maybe it'll become a thing outside the cheese Blitz Smite?

Mister Support5 votes

Yeah I'd recommend doing this a few times in normals first, that way once you hit ranked if someone tries to rage and complain at you in champ select just link them to your match history and say "what now" xD

Yosuke Apperu17 votes

{quoted}

This sound pretty interesting actually... I don't think I'll be allowed to try it without getting screamed at, but who knows? Maybe it'll become a thing outside the cheese Blitz Smite?

The funny part is if/when it does become a thing.. You'll get called a sheep/troll if you DON'T do it XD

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

{quoted}

The funny part is if/when it does become a thing.. You'll get called a sheep/troll if you DON'T do it XD

It's already a thing, just we're the first people rolling it out.

Spoofghoul1 votes

ive been doing this for over a year now lol

YoloQ where new meta's are born

Mhihnj1 votes

If we make a new meta, i am practicing my autographs

Mister Support4 votes

Try it before fully judging it please!

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

I definitely will. You could add jungle items to potential benefits, item 3092 item 1410 Karma or Zilean sounds RAD.

Fllesh4 votes

these both seem to be games in which u destroyed the enemy team, i dont know how good of a representation of a normal game that is....

i mention this because i then question how effective it is, u lose a traditional support spell of exhaust.... so in games in which u did not dominate how did it go, was not having exhaust a factor in losing bot fights? what about when you were ganked 3v2, did not having exhaust get ur adc killed?

idk...

im not saying it does not have a place, and im not saying that it could not be effective, i simply question if it is a better alternative to other summoner spells....

it seems focused on the support being a roaming support though, u have to encounter monsters to make the most use of it, and if ur jg solos dragon u dont need to use it on drag....

if your jg is counter jging then u dont need to use it in the enemy jg, if your not a tanky ali support maybe its more dangerous to go into the enemy jg if ur not dominating...

taking jg camps means ur jg is not taking them, in a normal game that is whats suppose to happen isnt it? i could so be wrong i dont know how to jg

buying items that build out of smite take away from the more "traditional" support items, this means that u gain in the jg items, but lose the support item buffs, many of which are meant for the support role

im just trying to ask u, what about the other side of the coin.... isnt there more to this?

do u think this works for all supports, or just certain ones? will it work in every elo, or as you climb will it lose effectiveness? is it made for yolo and pure fun, or will it work in a competitive atmosphere.....

Mister Support2 votes

You obviously didnt pay much mind to the links. I has Exhaust and Smite, I gave up flash instead so that in fights I could still exhaust the threat. Going from a personal feel in the games I felt as though I had a large impact. I wouldn't always take an entire camp, especially early that would just be dumb I would nearly die since I'm support, but would just smite it for the smite benefit, or bring the ADC with so they could get the gold.

All of your other points are valid, however. And that would need to be tested. One of the games It was a 5-man vs. 5-man so I saw it work well in a coordinated aspect, and the other game was all solos so it worked there too. The selling point I had with this was that just by smiting (not necessarily taking) wolf camp is essentially told where the enemy jungler was.

Reformed Dunni2 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadCast Fenris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JNYhAUTg,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-21T17:59:13.716+0000)

You obviously didnt pay much mind to the links. I has Exhaust and Smite, I gave up flash instead so that in fights I could still exhaust the threat. Going from a personal feel in the games I felt as though I had a large impact. I wouldn't always take an entire camp, especially early that would just be dumb I would nearly die since I'm support, but would just smite it for the smite benefit, or bring the ADC with so they could get the gold.

All of your other points are valid, however. And that would need to be tested. One of the games It was a 5-man vs. 5-man so I saw it work well in a coordinated aspect, and the other game was all solos so it worked there too. The selling point I had with this was that just by smiting (not necessarily taking) wolf camp is essentially told where the enemy jungler was.

First off I want to save I love the idea and I'm glad people like you are experimenting with new things in the game but Fllesh has a point. By taking smite you do get those advantages that you listed in your post but not having exhaust or heal can lose you bot lane fights. Yes, you can take smite/exhaust but it's not optimal and it would lead to an easy support kill if ganked or caught out by a support like, blitz, thresh, leona, ect.

EDIT: Upvote

Mister Support4 votes

This is just an alternative, not a must do thing lol. If they have a hyper aggressive team then yeah avoid taking smite, stick to exhaust and flash. I'm just saying that this is something that is viable and can work really well.

LilxPaprika3 votes

I did this with old runeglaive on maokai. was very effective.

Dataless3 votes

I don't see this working outside of Bronze/Silver, you give up a LOT by not taking flash.

Mister Support10 votes

So far the games have been in high plat/low diamond tier.

Dataless2 votes

Those must be some bad junglers for not identifying and exploiting a flashless support.

Mister Support16 votes

I made it difficult for them, told the adc to let the enemies push so we'd be near tower, and I also roamed a lot so it wasn't exactly easy for them to find me out in the open. On top of that, Alistar and braum both have some good self peel so even if I was caught out I could often times just knock them away. I've mained support since I started playing ranked, so I've learned how to handle myself while flash is down, essentially I just play those games as I would if it were always down.

Looknook3 votes

I wanna try this on Bard now. Would make for an easy killing of the jungle creeps by the botlane for experience advantage. Also item 1402 item 3092 (Cosmic Binds and Magical Journeys) Bard "BOOOOOONNNGGG" aka "NO TOUCHING THESE BUNS"

ltmetal3 votes

As a jungle main, this post speaks to me. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Mister Support1 votes

Do explain, I don't see how this is nice to junglers aside from smite being involved.

ltmetal3 votes

It makes it more appealing to be a support secondary if you are ordinarily just a jungler.

Valexfor2 votes

A refreshing cheese strategy. It might work on chill games, but it's very easy to predict and work around if you're a good player, since if you take smite you will lack either ignite or exhaust (or both) making your laning phase a lot harder. Also if the enemy knows you have 2 smites, the enemy jungler will problably expect you to try and do something, meaning that if he's smart he will snowball other lanes and leave bot alone sicne you will not be able to trade thanks to the lack of exhaust/ignite, giving his bot lane an advantage and more control on the fights, als if you lose the enemy will snowball a lot harder since you won't be able to stop them nor fight them (thanks to the lack of these summoner 3 summoner 14 two guys). The smite upgrades are good, but gren smite is not a really good replacement for ss, you need at least 3 wards when playing support, and green smite gives 2. Blue smite is not bad since if you want to catch an escaping opponent it's better than exhaust, and jungle items tend to offer nice stats at a relatively low price, but it's still not completely worth. All in all I repeat: it's a refreshing thing and probably a fun strategy if you're with friends or are against an unsuspecting opponent, but that's just it, a cheese strategy. Still will upvote since it looks like a lot of fun to mess around the enemy jungle with smite as a support ^^.

Mister Support9 votes

Read the context...the only "cheese" about this is possibly trying to take the enemy buff camp early. I also get rid of my flash to keep exhaust or ignite most games. I work around the smite to get experience advantages to me and my carry early, use smite on enemy wolf camp for vision, take raptors for the free sweeper, place pressure on dragon and rift at the same time, catch up in experience by taking camps in the mid game, etc.

The way I'm using this isn't for cheese, but to take advantage of what smite offers in exchange for flash or ignite. Weighing the benefits of both and deciding that overall it's better. And even with green smite in most of my games I'd have more or the same amount of wards placed.

Valexfor1 votes

I read the context, and I explained to you that it only works on unprepared (or stupid) opponents. There is a reason if this strategy is not used in professional play: it's a cheese strategy.

You take ignite/exhaust insterad of flash: You will die most of the times if the enemy is at least a bit smart, since he will know you probably won't be able to escape an all in engage. Also smite has less fighting potential than exhaust/ignite, so if you want to take flash for safety you won't get anything done early. If with green smite you have the same amount of wards that means that you either waste 10 minutes every game going back just to get the extra wards you need or you don't take red trinket (so you can't deny vision) or you just use 2 wards every time, meaning you're not warding enough (unless you play with someone you know and he's helping to ward, since most adc don't ward even when you ask them to and they have 2 stack of yellow trinket). Also if you take smite the enemy jungler will also know that you will probably try to fuck up with his jungle, so he will probably start bot (effectively nullifying your smite, unless you want to leave your adc alone for a lot every time you want to smite something, and that's not too smart nor efficient unless you're already winning, which is hard since you will be weak to all ins and will probably have to play passively), and will probably just clear his jungle bofre ganking since from the second clear onwards every jungler has a decent enough clear that he can clear a portion of his jungle before every gank usually. also utill you upgrade smite you have a useless summoner (smite). the only good thing about this is the possibility to contest a dragon/baron better, but that also weighs on yor bot not beying too much behind (which will probably happen since you can't fight), else the enemy will just kill you first then take it (if they're not dumb). Also machete and talisman are good only in the jungle really, and upgrading them costs more than ss, so you effectively get less for more gold (150 hp and 1 ward) and will have less goldsince you won't get any extra ambient gold, meaning that this strategy really starves you unless you manage to get some good early kills (and even then, it's just on par with the normal support builds in my opinion).

After this analysis (as you can see I did take into account a lot of things, I'm not just saying it's cheese since I like the word) we can say: this strategy works only on unprepared and/or bad players. And what's a cheese strategy? A strategy which works only on unprepared/bad players. So this is a cheese strategy. That said I actually find it funny and refreshing so, even if it might not work too well against a good team, it's worth to use it just for the funny scenarios and interactions it might have. That's why I upvoted, hope you realize my analysys better now and understand why I call this a chesee strategy.

2ManyJons2 votes

The entire comment section of this post is "WAAAH you're breaking the meta by not taking flash everyone is gonna kill you forever!"

I think it's a great idea. With the current mobility creep in this game, a flash isn't going to save you shit if you don't have a dash or something to follow it up with unless you flash under a tower. If you are in the middle of bot lane and Udyr comes running in at mach 5 landing a chilling smite, you can flash twice if you want, but you aren't going to make it back under tower without getting stunned and losing atleast 70% health when enemy ADC/Sup catches up.

I honestly believe they're making so many hyper-mobile champs to demean flash as a summoners spell. Yeah, you get to dodge a skill shot once every 200 seconds, maybe make a jump over a wall. But what is Soraka gonna do after she flashes over the wall and Trist, Kha'zix, Leblank and Jarvan leap over the wall after her, and Leona tags her with a well placed Zeneth Blade to fly through it too?

Owntrolf2 votes

Are people copying my shit now

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=owntrolf

Mister Support1 votes

The only real similarity here is just that we both take smite. Otherwise you go full damage with assassins and juggernauts.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

It was explained to me a while back why replacing Exhaust with Chilling Smite isn't so great an idea. Chilling Smite is massively inferior to Exhaust when peeling, something very important in the current sated/devourer jungler meta. Leaving your ADC alone for the time it takes to run into the jungle for that mana regen is a really risky idea unless you KNOW your ADC can stay alive without you; I personally don't trust my marksmen alone for any longer than it takes to ward river. You wouldn't be able to get jungle items until after your gold item, and since a lot of their value is tied into bonus damage/gold against jungle creep kills, it's cost ineffective on a class that already gets shit on in the income department. Plus until you get the actual chilling smite item, you have a summoner spell that's basically only good in lane for stealing CS (unless you have a Relic shield, though besides Thresh no one should have any problems proccing the execute).

I'm not saying it doesn't have value. But all the value of a Smite support build is in mid-late game in a meta where games are more and more frequently decided in the early laning phase, where your Exhaust/Flash equipped enemy support will dance all over your ass.

Side note, your teammates will likely flame the ever-living shit out of you for doing "TROLL SUMM OMG" in champion select.

Mister Support6 votes

Don't know how many times I have to say this...I REPLACE FLASH MOST OF THE TIME, NOT EXHAUST, IT'S SITUATIONAL WHICH I WOULD REPLACE IT WITH. Seriously so many comments and on the post itself I've had to restate this. As well as the use, it can be a replacement to Sightstone with the Tracker's knife in some cases, and if I get Stalkers Blade then I use that for taking/smiting wolf camp or scuttle for vision, as well as pressuring dragon.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Um.... did you read the part where I specified "replacing Exhaust with Chilling Smite"? It really helps if you don't just skim.

the Anarchit3cht7 votes

did you read the part where he suggested replacing exhaust with chilling smite because i didnt.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

" But my idea is simply one little change...take smite. It can be summoner 3 summoner 11 or summoner 11 summoner 4 or summoner 11 summoner 14 it's situational, but just hear me out."

Holy Jesus, it's like no one ever reads anymore, they just skim, then downvote because someone in class actually paid attention. I thought this kind of shit ended in middle school.

4th3t0s1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JNYhAUTg,comment-id=00120000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-22T11:55:24.885+0000)

" But my idea is simply one little change...take smite. It can be -------->summoner 3 summoner 11<------ or summoner 11 summoner 4 or summoner 11 summoner 14 it's situational, but just hear me out."

Holy Jesus, it's like no one ever reads anymore, they just skim, then downvote because someone in class actually paid attention. I thought this kind of shit ended in middle school.

summoner 3 summoner 11 Tunnel vision much?

It Hertz When IP1 votes

How is that vaguely relevant? He proposed three options for including Smite in a support's summoner spell lineup; I commented on one of them. Jesus, you people learn slow.

4th3t0s1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JNYhAUTg,comment-id=0012000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-22T19:47:15.674+0000)

How is that vaguely relevant? He proposed three options for including Smite in a support's summoner spell lineup; I commented on one of them. Jesus, you people learn slow.

"Don't know how many times I have to say this...I REPLACE FLASH MOST OF THE TIME, NOT EXHAUST, IT'S SITUATIONAL WHICH I WOULD REPLACE IT WITH."

^ This, right here, should have shut you up. It was clarified right here, crystal clear, but you kept throwing around the "skimming" crap when you, in fact, skimmed right over the aforementioned statement.

delonix1 votes

Very cool. Do you make any changes besides taking smite and picking up the jungle item? Have you tested Strength of the Ages? Is it worth it to rush Cinderhulk, or is it better to finish a different health item first? How do you stay safe taking the first buff/wolf/raptors from the enemy jungle, especially without flash?

The enemy junglers don't seem to be very far behind in farm even when you take 20+ of their jungle monsters and the first buff. Does it seem like they fall behind in game?

Mister Support2 votes

Usually stick to Bond of Stone since I will be a part of fights, it will help me and my laner. Typically will start a gold item, then get the initial jg item item 3706 or item 3711 , then finish the gold item, whether it's mixed with SS or not, then finish jg item (with boots somewhere in there). Then continue the build normally. If you want could wait to get cinderhulk third or fourth so the hp bonus is stronger once completed.

If you want to steal the enemy jungler's first buff, I do this, after the initial leash, go to just outside of the enemy buff camp, wait until you notice your jungler going on his own buff camp, then count to 3 or 4, and walk close enough to smite, and run out. Don't stay, that will get you killed. For taking full camps, either take your carry/jungler with you and let them have the gold, or wait until you see the enemy jungler in the opposite side of the map from the camp you are taking, and try to be a level where you can actually take it without having to wait 50 years. If it would take you to long, then just smite the large monster for the benefit and leave. Try to keep one smite up so you have dragon pressure.

Since the camp you will take most is wolves, you won't always "steal" important camps from the jungler, since most people just ignore that camp aside from the first clear. The big difference comes if you smite a camp away that you see the enemy jungler working on, because then you made them waste resources just to give you free gold and experience. The biggest thing I noticed was I put the enemy jungler 1-2 levels behind ours early game if I was successful in what I was doing. But mid-game they usually would be able to catch up.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

either put yourself behind to get a jungle upgrade for your smite (making it actually useful in combat) or get an inferior sightstone that gives me benefits only against jungle camps?

...hmmm. Seems pretty garbage to me, since at level 1 you'll automatically lose any all-in unless you hard outplay your lane opponent due to the combat summoner spell differential.

Mister Support3 votes

What kind of people do you play with where a level 1 all in has any actual impact? Also it's a matter of cost vs. benefits. About 2500g for a Cinderhulk or Runic Echoes Item, I see it as worth. Also a matter of providing vision on the enemy jungler every 1.5 minutes, taking scuttlers faster, pressuring dragon, easier barons, etc.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

...the kind where they get a level 1 all-in or hit level 2 early and all-in and then make my ADC lose 1-2 early waves and continue to hold an exp advantage for the rest of the game?

I feel like you just haven't played against a botlane that has properly played against your strat. If I saw you with smite/exhaust or smite/flash in lane I'd probably just stand really really aggressively and force you to play back to keep you from pushing the wave in... Once you secure level advantage, the lane is basically won since even after you finish your smite upgrade, you will still have decreased summoner spell combat effectiveness unless you take smite/exhaust or smite/ignite, in which case it's unlikely you survive the laning phase very well. I'm in no way saying that it hasn't worked for you, I just feel like it's less that the build is good and more that people are not properly playing against it because it's so weird.

Mister Support1 votes

I mean, it's also possible that I'm playing properly while not having flash or exhaust. It's the same as if I used it in lane, and now the enemy would have a summoner advantage, but that "advantage" is throughout the laning phase. I avoid their skillshots, peel when necessarily, poke when they go for cs or blow a high priority ability, sustain with relic shield or my own abilities, and use smite to fast take jungle camps to secure my lane an experience advantage. Meanwhile during any downtime in the lane or when the enemies back, I either smite and leave, or just take the enemy wolf camp so we can see if their jungler comes near bot-side for the next 1-2 minutes. As well as Scuttler for 1.5 minutes of river vision. I've also been able to use smite on a cannon minion to proc relic from a distance which healed my carry when he got caught and leveled him up which made us get a double kill bot, so it can turn the tide of a fight even before the upgrade if used right. The stats it gives when all items are finished will be better overall comparing full late-game builds, and with the extra experience from camps, catching up in levels will be easier.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

Again, if I were the support playing against you and you were flashless it's unlikely that you'd survive laning phase to get any of these benefits you're listing (or for them to really matter compared to a snowballed ADC), unless you hard outplayed us in which case it wouldn't matter that you had smite. again, I'm in no way saying that it CAN'T work - I just find it highly unlikely that the strategy is actually stronger than exhaust/flash, just that you're playing into lanes that aren't countering your lack of mobility properly (or you're playing supports that don't require flash for safety, not that I can really think of any from the traditional support pool).

It's like, I have something like 90% winrate with AP Ziggs support bottom, that doesn't mean it's actually good or that other people should do it. I've just played Ziggs since the day he came out and it works pretty well if you hit a lot of bombs around rank 2 Q.

Mister Support1 votes

I can see smite/exhaust or smite/flash stronger in some cases than exhaust/flash. But that's where it gets situational. It it's why I'm saying it's an alternative, not a "stronger than current meta must pick this is freelo". Just something that works well and is another way to play support. Like how there's the ignite/flash kill lane of bot that tries to snowball early, exhaust/flash is the late game focus of things. Smite/exhaust or smite/flash would be more of a mid-late game I guess you could say where you can trust yourself to either peel enough without exhaust or position without flash so that the benefits of smite (wolf smite and neutral objective pressure) end up being better.

There are definitely cases I would say NOT to do this. Such as Soraka, she would never really make good use of this idea. Or if the enemy has a strong early game focus composition, then you're just putting yourself at high risk.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

the main issue I have is that it doesn't actually feel like the benefits are that... beneficial. The only times I could see this being strong would be against lanes that are forced to play passive (Soraka lanes) or in lanes where you can be assured of breaking even... I just feel like if you get behind, it doesn't much matter that you have scuttle because your ADC isn't scaling, and that's your primary job as support. It's a neat idea in that it makes the own support's recovery pattern better (opening up jungle exp and gold as a source of goldstream for them) but it actually hurts the recovery pattern of the rest of your team (unless you're solely jungling in the enemy jungle, I guess) as it removes potential exp/gold from them and funnels it to a role that statistically scales the least with items. It's a neat idea and all, I just don't see the strengths outweighing the weaknesses except in super specific cases.

DrShoking1 votes

why not item 1413 it decreases the enemies damage while letting you do a tiny bit more damage

Catastrop2 votes

Skirmisher's only decreases damage to him so it's kind of a selfish pick up since you're not really helping anyone but yourself with it.

Ryùuzaki1 votes

wow that's genius ! what do you suggest for other items next to the jungle item ?

Mister Support2 votes

The build order I've done on tanks: item 3302 and 3item 2003 item 1039 item 1001 first back. item 3711 or item 2049 for vision item 3706 get stalkers post vision item (if not trackers) item 3401 item 2303 finish gold item item 3158 cinderhulk item 3067 hp + cdr item 3024 armor + mana + cdr item 3110 item 3190 / item 3060 situational on order of purchase and which Aegis to get item 3512 / item 3800 situational

Meteor Driz1 votes

SUPPORT ROLE SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME ENTIRELY.

MAKE TEAMS HAVE 2 JUNGLERS.

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