The AD bias against structures is incredible

Incognonymous·Dec 10, 2015·4 votes·1,548 views

Give me one good reason an AD team should instantly have such an enormous advantage via objective control, just by virtue of building one stat? If the enemy wins one fight, you just lost a turret. That's obscene. That's disgusting. It's one thing for Master Yi to people to outduel anyone, and everyone, but to be able to outduel a turret with no minion wave? Stop it. Stop it, please. This is not okay.

And yes, it got buffed for AP, but so what? Isn't that the wrong direction? I don't want AP to hit it harder. I want AD to hit towers less hard. Buff tower armor across all maps.

55 Comments

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20154 votes

"AP is so much worse at objective control than AD, game is biased!"

Everyone else: "Umm, not really. AP champions' attacks still deal increased damage to turrets, they have significantly better wave-clear, and there are items to make them even faster at clearing towers."

Me personally: "So why is it I usually clear mid tower before both top and bot lane...as Xerath, Brand, Syndra, Lux or Zyra?"

OP: [downvotes everyone opposing his blind, unfounded opinion]

Dominick DestineDec 10, 20153 votes

AP scales better as damage against structures.

With Evelynn I can do 1k damage to a structure late game in a single hit with a spellblade proc + AP bonus.

IncognonymousDec 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JKujuEBf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-10T21:02:39.050+0000)

AP scales better as damage against structures.

With Evelynn I can do 1k damage to a structure late game in a single hit with a spellblade proc + AP bonus.

No it doesn't, and your one anecdote doesn't make it so.

viridianArcanistDec 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

No it doesn't, and your one anecdote doesn't make it so.

From the patch notes for 5.22

Basic attacks against turrets deal damage equal to base attack damage + either 1.0 bonus attack damage or ~~0.4 ability power~~ ⇒ 0.5 ability power, whichever is higher

IncognonymousDec 10, 20151 votes

[deleted]

viridianArcanistDec 10, 20151 votes

Sorry I must have misread your first post.

TwigglesDec 10, 20151 votes

Settle down, hotshot. You aren't Samuel L. Jackson.

BluePolarizerDec 11, 20153 votes

There's no AD bias. AD has significantly less AOE and CC than AP champs. AP and AD champs are optimized for different roles. AD in general is better at sustained damage and taking structures while AP is better for teamfighting due to burst, AOE and CC.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's no AD bias. AD has significantly less AOE and CC than AP champs. AP and AD champs are optimized for different roles. AD in general is better at sustained damage and taking structures while AP is better for teamfighting due to burst, AOE and CC.

Delusional AD main. Go defend your freelo elsewhere. AD is broken.

BluePolarizerDec 11, 20155 votes

I'm a tank main lol. I'm the hardest countered by AD.

khorneyDec 10, 20152 votes

i dunno i can outduel yi as taric

EndlessSorcererDec 10, 20151 votes

Outrageous.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i dunno i can outduel yi as taric

Sated- Rageblade Yi? Call me a skeptic.

khorneyDec 12, 20151 votes

more armor means more damage if i have thonamil, iceborn gaun, good luck i typically 2 shot squishies taric has more burst then people give him credit for and like i said more armor means more damage from my w and from the thornmail

Pierce The VealDec 10, 20152 votes

Have you seen how fast an akali/casseiopeia takes a tower down?

A full huild akali three shots towers.

That's NOT ok. NEITHER is a full build adc 3 shotting towers. Neither should happen.

Spicy RiceDec 11, 20151 votes

Full build ads dont 3 shot towers, unless you are talkkng about nasus

Pierce The VealDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Full build ads dont 3 shot towers, unless you are talkkng about nasus

Well, uh. I mean, not like any ad actually optimizes tower damage over crit in the first place. Sure they don't three shot, but they take it just about as fast because of how long it takes say akali or cass to auto attack.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Full build ads dont 3 shot towers, unless you are talkkng about nasus

Derp. Google "hyperbole" for me.

Might as well be three shot for all the good turrets do. 5 item Jinx with elixir can solo a laser turret without a wave. Turrets are too weak.

HeizmanDec 11, 20152 votes

Your very worked up over this. Had a hunch you'd be in silver, I was right.

KaeblenDec 11, 20151 votes

have mercy on me: how do you look that up? Is it on their profile? I can't find it.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20151 votes

I usually use lolking.net

SquarefighterDec 11, 20151 votes

Don't listen to that guy! op.gg master race!

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Your very worked up over this. Had a hunch you'd be in silver, I was right.

I'm SIlver because I don't play Ranked. Four seasons of playing this game and I have what, 35? 40 games? That's not accurate placement and I still landed Silver 2 with no effort in a system designed to intentionally low ball you.

Rank is irrelevant anyway. Now quit your fucking fallacies and leave my thread.

RebonackDec 10, 20151 votes

Nashor's OnHit works against towers now.

And AD was lowered across the board on items, so AD champions don't hit as hard.

Pierce The VealDec 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nashor's OnHit works against towers now.

And AD was lowered across the board on items, so AD champions don't hit as hard.

Holy crap nashor works on towers.

Damn. I mean DAYUMN.

Back to playing nashors diana it is.

RebonackDec 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Holy crap nashor works on towers.

Damn. I mean DAYUMN.

Back to playing nashors diana it is.

Rageblade's OnHit works as well. Not sure about Wit's, haven't tested it.

I know %HP OnHits don't work on them, though.

Try grabbing a blue elixir on AP Marksmen Kog and watch what happens.

ChangstyDec 10, 20151 votes

AD is easier to itemize against. How many pieces of equipment give you 100MR?

ZephyrDrakeDec 10, 20151 votes

APs don't need to hit turrets harder nor do ADs need to hit them for less. Hell APs have the most champions with bonus damage to turrets and Lichbane can melt turrets like they are nothing

IcyPepperDec 10, 20151 votes

Well, sustained damage is more useful than burst damage against towers.

If you want better tower pressure with AP, lichbane is useful, but AP burst is more against other squishies.

Tower pressure is one of the premiere reasons we have an ADC almost every single game, alongside sustained damage in teamfights.

khorneyDec 10, 20151 votes

play as ziggs he does

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

Just saw Jinx reach 2.5 AS with just a hurricane and shard. That is fucking ridiculous. That is not okay.

RebonackDec 11, 20151 votes

I'm going to reiterate here: The fastest tower pusher in the game is AP Kog ( item 3124 item 3115 item 3091 item 3135 item 3020 item 3100 ) with a Blue Elixir.

If you leave him alone for three seconds, towers will vanish.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to reiterate here: The fastest tower pusher in the game is AP Kog ( ) with a Blue Elixir.

If you leave him alone for three seconds, towers will vanish.

This is irrelevant. My point wasn't that AP's can't push towers it's that the classical AD bias has always allowed for too much pushing power for ADs. The fact that AP has finally been brought up to this point doesn't matter. Towers are simply too weak as whole.

KaeblenDec 11, 20151 votes

So, it would be fair if Ziggs 's MEGA INFERNO BOMB damaged and destroyed turrets? https://lh4.ggpht.com/nLlCbdpZeO7wV94wjc3Jg61rjnxhro9bSxJo4I20QLnqLu-qrcnKzDqijUL9cEuy0ERbYEdIuvgYg97LKtd9mn4ohA?.gif http://bestanimations.com/Military/Explosions/nuclear-atom-bomg-explosion-animated-gif-6.gif http://lsdex.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tumblr_lm131eocED1qglnd2o1_500.gif

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20151 votes

Heimerdinger "Oh, but my little grenade damaging towers is too much, huh?"

KaeblenDec 11, 20151 votes

doesn't your ult-turret attack towers? wait: don't ALL your turrets attack towers? I know they deal reduced damage, but they still hit.

Annie Tibbers kills turrets Azir W can be cast on turrets to kill them do I need to find a few more for you?

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20151 votes

Zyra And my plants--oh... Malzahar Go voidling, attack the--oh damn, I forgot he chases my E target. *shrugs* Orianna The Ball does not care about turrets. Maokai Elise Explodey minions, y u no bomb turrets?

(I'm just having fun with this stuff)

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And my plants--oh... Go voidling, attack the--oh damn, I forgot he chases my E target. *shrugs* The Ball does not care about turrets. Explodey minions, y u no bomb turrets?

(I'm just having fun with this stuff)

Malz's Voidlings are AD. Nice try though.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20151 votes

Malz's voidlings scale on his AD, yes, but he still summons them by casting spells over and over, and even when Malzahar builds AP, they're still his other tool-pushing turret.

I'd call it cute snark, but you're killing the humorous vibe of the conversation.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Malz's voidlings scale on his AD, yes, but he still summons them by casting spells over and over, and even when Malzahar builds AP, they're still his other tool-pushing turret.

I'd call it cute snark, but you're killing the humorous vibe of the conversation.

The last time I played AD Malz I obtained over 400 AD. Are you implying that spell casts somehow limit one from being considered AD? Got news for you, mate. There's an entire class of champs that do that.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20151 votes

Jesus Christ's tommy gun of Holy Fucks doesn't even have any fucks to give about this shit anymore.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Jesus Christ's tommy gun of Holy Fucks doesn't even have any fucks to give about this shit anymore.

You should learn to lose graciously, son. You just got educated.

ForgiveColourDec 11, 20151 votes

Anivia one shotting wave at level 6 is fine because shes ap :^)

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Anivia one shotting wave at level 6 is fine because shes ap :^)

Yes? Contrast this with ADCs one shotting minions twice a second and half shotting a wave with just a Shiv. ADCs have waveclear. It's called an auto attack.

ForgiveColourDec 11, 20151 votes

Did you compare one shotting wave to one shotting one minion? LOL

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Did you compare one shotting wave to one shotting one minion? LOL

One-shotting minions > one-shotting waves. AAs have no cast time, can't miss, no associated cost, and have virtually no cooldown.

ForgiveColourDec 11, 20151 votes

one shotting one minions > one shotting wave

TIL ok LOL

Z StatisticDec 11, 20151 votes

AA in DO have a cast time. If they didn't, they could be cast without interrupting orders. If they could, you could attack without stopping move orders
AA also have less range than skillshots, making them significantly more dangerous to perform even at max range than regular waveclear spells
Aoe clear also punishes anyone remotely nearly the wave by default whereas autos are single target.

But I really just want to point out how this logic is silly: the ability to oneshot a single champion is more important that the ability to oneshot the entire team at once.

It's nice how aoe spells that can do this have a heavy cost either in cooldown, resource, or both or else people would just forgo the single target explosion and just use aoe since that would be doing the single target's job but better.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JKujuEBf,comment-id=00100000000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-11T19:49:58.208+0000)

AA in DO have a cast time. If they didn't, they could be cast without interrupting orders. If they could, you could attack without stopping move orders

AA also have less range than skillshots, making them significantly more dangerous to perform even at max range than regular waveclear spells

Aoe clear also punishes anyone remotely nearly the wave by default whereas autos are single target.

But I really just want to point out how this logic is silly: the ability to oneshot a single champion is more important that the ability to oneshot the entire team at once.

It's nice how aoe spells that can do this have a heavy cost either in cooldown, resource, or both or else people would just forgo the single target explosion and just use aoe since that would be doing the single target's job but better.

We're talking about waveclearing, not fighting. Throw out points 2 and 3. Point 1 is irrelevant. AAs have a cast animation, but the time from cast to damage is essentially insignificant. To argue against this is pointless. You are wrong.

Your analogy is not comparable. These are minions. Not champs.

IncognonymousDec 11, 20151 votes

And I know I'm complaining about structures, but this is actually true for all objectives. Why are ADCs the best equipped class to take Rift Herald/Baron/Dragon when we have a special role designated purely for objective control-- that even carries a special summoner for it?

AD bias. Thank you based Riot, for Kalista's Rend.