Title.
Everything in the Ferocity tree works solely on Champions and Champions alone, which I don't think it's always been so... so I don't know, context? Why can't Fervor be used against neutral monsters?
Bonipherus6 votesThere's not supposed to be jungle-centered keystones. Junglers would likely get pigeon holed into choosing it if it were as strong as the other keystones or completely useless. I think it would also be possible that tiers may develop based on which junglers can forego that jungle-only keystone in favor of other keystones that give more power in teamfights, ganks, etc.
Incognonymous1 votesThere's not supposed to be jungle-centered keystones. Junglers would likely get pigeon holed into choosing it if it were as strong as the other keystones or completely useless. I think it would also be possible that tiers may develop based on which junglers can forego that jungle-only keystone in favor of other keystones that give more power in teamfights, ganks, etc.
SoA stacks off Large Monsters.
I don't think a mastery has to be "jungle centered" exactly, I just want some use outside of direct PVP. I mean, obviously, prestacking Fervor on minions was too much, but why not allow it on Large Monsters just as SoA allows stacks from them?
Ralanr1 votesThen they'd stack it off super minions before all ining you.
I'm not saying it's bad, just saying a possible abuse.
Incognonymous1 votesThen they'd stack it off super minions before all ining you.
I'm not saying it's bad, just saying a possible abuse.
Hence stacking on neutral monsters and not cannon minions.
Abyssphere3 votesWhy would you want a jungler keystone? The context given for not having one was the fact that it'd either be useless on everyone, mandatory on everyone or specific enough that the junglers who worked well with it would have a major advantage in jungle clearing over the people who couldn't take it. You want Fervor to work against neutral monsters - why? Why should attack speed bruisers like Xin get a significant buff to their clear in comparison to every other type of jungler, particularly when that class of champions already has a strong clear?
If you make a couple of Keystones work on junglers then you introduce significant inequality in jungle clear between classes of junglers. People who use the jungle keystones well would require clear nerfs, those who don't use them likely need buffs. If you make a Keystone SPECIFICALLY for junglers that doesn't do anything except help clear, then it's either essential on everyone who can go into the tree that contains it or it's completely useless. It's a bad thing for it to be good because nobody would want to take it (it'd be boring) but they'd feel obliged to anyway.
I mean laners don't get keystones that help them CS or anything anyway so it'd be odd to have a jungling keystone, but the potential problems of adding jungling keystones far outweigh the potential advantages given that junglers really aren't struggling to clear camps as is. I'd rather not risk creating unnecessary inequality in jungle clear/creating a situation in which people feel they NEED to take a certain mastery even though it's boring when there's no real need for junglers to have better clears right now.
Incognonymous1 votesWhy would you want a jungler keystone? The context given for not having one was the fact that it'd either be useless on everyone, mandatory on everyone or specific enough that the junglers who worked well with it would have a major advantage in jungle clearing over the people who couldn't take it. You want Fervor to work against neutral monsters - why? Why should attack speed bruisers like Xin get a significant buff to their clear in comparison to every other type of jungler, particularly when that class of champions already has a strong clear?
If you make a couple of Keystones work on junglers then you introduce significant inequality in jungle clear between classes of junglers. People who use the jungle keystones well would require clear nerfs, those who don't use them likely need buffs. If you make a Keystone SPECIFICALLY for junglers that doesn't do anything except help clear, then it's either essential on everyone who can go into the tree that contains it or it's completely useless. It's a bad thing for it to be good because nobody would want to take it (it'd be boring) but they'd feel obliged to anyway.
I mean laners don't get keystones that help them CS or anything anyway so it'd be odd to have a jungling keystone, but the potential problems of adding jungling keystones far outweigh the potential advantages given that junglers really aren't struggling to clear camps as is. I'd rather not risk creating unnecessary inequality in jungle clear/creating a situation in which people feel they NEED to take a certain mastery even though it's boring when there's no real need for junglers to have better clears right now.
SoA is clearly a jungler-viable keystone, and no one complains about it. The other trees lack it-- outside of Windspeaker's. Again: I'm less interested in jungler specific keystones than making keystones less PVP-based.
And what you described accurately describes the state of keystones right now... like, what even is your point? Some keystones are invariably and irrefutably superior to others-- in some instances transcending role, champ, situation, etc. Keystones are broken. Adding more generalized versions---versions that junglers can effectively utilize-- isn't going to make it worse.
p.s. AS based clears are the most optimal regardless of class. I use AS runes on everyone, especially tank junglers. The Fervor monster stack wouldn't be a huge of a buff as you seem to think, and secondly, Riot has proven they don't give a frosted fuck about overbuffing champs, as can be seen by the current Xin buffs on the docket.
Abyssphere1 votesSoA is clearly a jungler-viable keystone, and no one complains about it. The other trees lack it-- outside of Windspeaker's. Again: I'm less interested in jungler specific keystones than making keystones less PVP-based.
And what you described accurately describes the state of keystones right now... like, what even is your point? Some keystones are invariably and irrefutably superior to others-- in some instances transcending role, champ, situation, etc. Keystones are broken. Adding more generalized versions---versions that junglers can effectively utilize-- isn't going to make it worse.
p.s. AS based clears are the most optimal regardless of class. I use AS runes on everyone, especially tank junglers. The Fervor monster stack wouldn't be a huge of a buff as you seem to think, and secondly, Riot has proven they don't give a frosted fuck about overbuffing champs, as can be seen by the current Xin buffs on the docket.
SoA isn't a jungle keystone in the sense that I'm talking about, because it doesn't aid your clear at all (outside of giving you some sustain post-20 minutes lol). It's useful on junglers but it doesn't actually make them better at jungling, and that's how it should be. Strength of the Ages allows its user to utilise their jungle farm to perform better in PVP combat, but that's completely different to Fervor giving you a shitload of extra damage against monsters which is a very real boost to your clear. I'm more than fine with keystones being useful on junglers (Thunderlord's being great in ganks for example), I just don't like the idea of keystones that specifically make your jungling easier/stronger.
Keystones being invariably and irrefutably superior to others is a problem, though, and one that Riot are likely to spend the entire season trying to address. "This thing is bad, let's make another bad thing" isn't something anyone should ever advocate. Why add another problem to the game? I also just flat out disagree that junglers can't effectively utilise current keystones - I have never felt left out of the mastery system via being a jungler and just because you don't run into enemy champions quite as often as your laners in the early game doesn't mean that PVP-focused masteries are useless on you. ADCs taking Warlord's start getting consistent use out of it long after junglers start getting consistent use out of Fervor/Thunderlord's/Grasp/SoA etc etc.
And yes I realise that AS-based clears are the best already, that's the exact reason that making specifically Fervor the PVP mastery that randomly works on jungle monsters would be ridiculous. Don't widen the gap between high AS junglers and ability-based junglers any more than is necessary - there's no benefit to doing that.
p.s. Advocating for a change because "Riot are shit at balancing so who cares?" doesn't convince anyone. If you yourself know that your idea would cause problems then you should probably just abandon the idea, because nobody wants more bullshit to deal with.
Slamurai Jack1 votesEvery tree lacks jungler friendly keystones. The only 2 junglers could possibly want are Strength of Ages or Bond of Stone, and neither of them make you do any more damage to monsters, which is what you really want.