Will virtually never recover. A laner who DCs can quickly recover their lost lead in experience, perhaps not gold, but it's often enough. Jungler doesn't have that benefit. Gold and experience are too sparse in the jungle, and even if monsters gave more, they have punishing respawn times.
What's worse is what's unseen on the surface: smite scales with level. A jungler who DC's will NEVER be able to contest baron or dragon against a jungler who hasn't.
The Virgin Perry8 votesMoral of the story: don't play jungle with shitty internet. lol
Easyyy2 votesMoral of the story: don't play jungle with shitty internet.
Or if your east coast....lol
junglerboy161 votesGuess I'm just lucky, I've never DCed while actually in the jungle, even though I main it. As an East coaster...
Rando McGee1 votesSame her, though I do get split-second jumps up to 300+ ping every once in a while. I've gotten used to it though and barely even notice it anymore.
junglerboy162 votesI've had those for sure, just never a full on disconnect while jungling. Usually it happens right between when I see a projectile AA that is certain to kill me and it actually having me die (like I stand there for a second knowing I'm actually dead but my character moves a step or two before lagging back to where I died).
177A Bleecker St1 votesGuess I'm just lucky, I've never DCed while actually in the jungle, even though I main it. As an East coaster...
same ive had bugsplat before but i came back withing 2 min
Silents4297 votesThey are buffing the XP gained in 5.6
And no it isn't hard to catch up, I dc'ed before I got my leash and didn't get back until 6 minutes in as jungle Shen. Just power farm. I managed to get 2 ganks off too.
What Is Smite4 votesYea same thing happened when I was playing Nautilus jungle before all his buffs (in reality I was in the bathroom doing my business) started the game 5 levels behind everyone else. Power Farmed, got back into the game and we won.
Incognonymous1 votesThey are buffing the XP gained in 5.6
And no it isn't hard to catch up, I dc'ed before I got my leash and didn't get back until 6 minutes in as jungle Shen. Just power farm. I managed to get 2 ganks off too.
I'm referring less to early DCs and more midgame DCs. Shen can powerfarm. He has absurd sustain and no mana. If you're Sejuani or Naut you wouldn't have caught up so fast, and if it had been at a time in the game at which people were actually in the jungle poaching your shit while you're gone you'd be out of luck.
Glad the experience is being buffed. It's not fun to being doing completely fine in the jungle, ganking, farming, securing objectives, and still being four levels behind a laner.
Silents4291 votesWell no, The point of the Cinderhulk item was to fix exactly this, Tanks can clear camps at a monstrous speed now, and if is mid game you already have item, and can easily power farm.
Plus you are a tank, you have tons of CC, farmed or not your CC is still useful for the team.
Incognonymous1 votesWell no, The point of the Cinderhulk item was to fix exactly this, Tanks can clear camps at a monstrous speed now, and if is mid game you already have item, and can easily power farm.
Plus you are a tank, you have tons of CC, farmed or not your CC is still useful for the team.
Monstrous? Hyperbole. Cinderhulk is good, great defensively even-- but it's not up to par compared to warrior/magus/devourer. Nor is it even a Sunfire Cape.
I agree about tanks being relevant regardless though. Utility picks are score independent. KDA doesn't always reflect your contribution to the game.
Silents4291 votesMagus is garbage on mage junglers.
And hyperbole or not, the Cinderhulk allows tanks to come back after falling behind unlike before very easily. And thanks to having 2 smites, its even easier.
And now that 5.6 is out with the XP boost for jungle camps, it's even easier to catch up. As someone stated above they got behind as Nautilus and easily caught up, and as another Naut main I agree with him. Is their any particular champion that can't?
Incognonymous1 votesMagus is garbage on mage junglers.
And hyperbole or not, the Cinderhulk allows tanks to come back after falling behind unlike before very easily. And thanks to having 2 smites, its even easier.
And now that 5.6 is out with the XP boost for jungle camps, it's even easier to catch up. As someone stated above they got behind as Nautilus and easily caught up, and as another Naut main I agree with him. Is their any particular champion that can't?
Magus? Garbage? Again with the hyperbole. At the beginning of the season people were lamenting about how OP it was. Good ole Boards. Magus is far from garbage, but some champs get more from the 20% CDR than others.
I'm conflicted about the double smite charges. It was not meant for farming junglers. Let me repeat: it was NOT meant for farm jungles. It was meant for people who were smiting champs but still needed to secure buffs in the jungle. Remember, the cooldown was only 60 seconds before double smite, and before that it was 40. Now its 75, with 15 seconds in between. So, you come back from your DC, you have one low-level smite, wait 15 seconds for another low level smite, then have to wait for the full recharge? Forgive me if I'm not impressed.
Silents4291 votesYou seem to be under some impression that the second smite won't be ready by the time you are on your next camp assuming you have 2 charges, which you will since it's mid game and you DC'ed. It REALLY isn't hard to catch back up and it just feels like you are just finding any small reason to complain about. You still haven't mentioned a jungler who can't catch up after a DC.
And Magus is garbage on Jungle Mages, it provides nothing in the ways of mana which they (Mage Junglers) are reliant on, and late game the only good part of the item is the 20% CDR, but you are still better off replacing it with some other AP item that gives CDR, AP, Mana Regen 
and a useful passive. It's a pile of crap item that doesn't fit the intended audience, and that is why Riot has already come out and say it's weak and going to get changed.
Incognonymous1 votesYou seem to be under some impression that the second smite won't be ready by the time you are on your next camp assuming you have 2 charges, which you will since it's mid game and you DC'ed. It REALLY isn't hard to catch back up and it just feels like you are just finding any small reason to complain about. You still haven't mentioned a jungler who can't catch up after a DC.
And Magus is garbage on Jungle Mages, it provides nothing in the ways of mana which they (Mage Junglers) are reliant on, and late game the only good part of the item is the 20% CDR, but you are still better off replacing it with some other AP item that gives CDR, AP, Mana Regen
It is, the third won't. Where as the single smite system would've been. It is hard to catch up, or rather, was. Jungle experience was recently buffed. It remains to be seen if it was enough. I haven't mentioned a jungler who can't catch up because its universal. No jungler who's behind will catch up purely on jungle farm. They have to go to lane to do so. Or did. You really replied too late to this thread.
Magus is no more or less garbage than Cinderhulk for the same reason. As I mentioned, last season's items had some form of mana sustain. They were just superior. Cinderhulk doesn't provide mana regen, and if anyone can compete with mages for mana dependency it's your classic Jungle Tank. Naut, Cho, Amumu, etc. Magus, viewed in that light, looks pretty good. And honestly, if season 5 showed us anything, Riot is like the last people that are qualified to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of mana regen.
Silents4291 votesAs demonstrated by everyone in this thread, posts about the cinderhulk, high skilled players and so on the Cinderhulk has been a massive help to Tanks allowing them to come back from easily if they DC or get counter jungled, No jungler currently has a problem catching up. It is NOT universal. Fucking EVE of all champions is doing great now.
Magus is garbage because it gives the wrong stats early on, and later on its stats are shadowed in comparison to other items. It is not the same as the Cinderhulk at all. Tanks don't need the mana items, thats why you don't seem the building mana regen late game like mages have too.
Everyone in this thread is pointing out champions they easily catch up with, the jungle isn't meant to be such a huge source of XP. But early on its more then enough, Mid game you are able to get some lane creeps if you really need it. (Which you don't)
Riot is like the last people that are qualified to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of mana regen.
Oh please like you have a fourth of the qualifications to do what they do.
Incognonymous1 votesAs demonstrated by everyone in this thread, posts about the cinderhulk, high skilled players and so on the Cinderhulk has been a massive help to Tanks allowing them to come back from easily if they DC or get counter jungled, No jungler currently has a problem catching up. It is NOT universal. Fucking EVE of all champions is doing great now.
Magus is garbage because it gives the wrong stats early on, and later on its stats are shadowed in comparison to other items. It is not the same as the Cinderhulk at all. Tanks don't need the mana items, thats why you don't seem the building mana regen late game like mages have too.
Everyone in this thread is pointing out champions they easily catch up with, the jungle isn't meant to be such a huge source of XP. But early on its more then enough, Mid game you are able to get some lane creeps if you really need it. (Which you don't)
Oh please like you have a fourth of the qualifications to do what they do.
Everyone in this thread? Please go back and read the first page. You will find it is not in fact everyone.
Magus is 80 AP and 20% CDR. That's crazy for how cheap it is, and you have early blues regardless. "Tanks don't need mana items", plz stop.
Oh please, like I need a culinary arts degree to determine someone's food taste like shit and they probably should leave the cooking to someone else. Enter team Riot.
Go cry and be wrong in another thread. The upvotes have it here, jungle experience is a problem and DCing is a problem. DCing in the jungle is a double problem.
Silents4291 votesEveryone in this thread? Please go back and read the first page. You will find it is not in fact everyone.
Where? I have yet to see anyone ever complain about having issues catching up? Not on your post, never on the front page. Not here, not on reddit. No where.
Magus is 80 AP and 20% CDR. That's crazy for how cheap it is, and you have early blues regardless. "Tanks don't need mana items", plz stop.
- 2250
- 2300
How is it a cheap good item when for 50 more gold you get one that's better in every single way?
Oh and yeah. Jungle Tanks totally need mana. Thats why all the late game tank builds have no mana/mana regen items involved at all. Not saying they aren't gated by mana, but so is practically every champion in the game. Just some fair worse without it. (Jungle Mages)
Oh please, like I need a culinary arts degree to determine someone's food taste like shit and they probably should leave the cooking to someone else. Enter team Riot.
Fair point I guess, but you do need an understanding of balance, how to read the statistics they get from live, how long to wait before changing something etc, before you criticize them for something they are paid to do.
It's not to say Riot hasn't made goofs or taken a bumpier road to something greater, but by no means are you or most anyone on these boards going to do even slightly better then they do.
Go cry and be wrong in another thread. The upvotes have it here, jungle experience is a problem and DCing is a problem. DCing in the jungle is a double problem.
Lol you mean 25 upvotes? Wow that's like 25 out of 40 billion players. What about the comment about the Nautilus main with some upvotes saying how he has had no problems catching up with jungle farm? Or my original comment saying I didn't have any issues too?
Or hell just read through these comments, no one really agrees with you at all.
Incognonymous1 votesWhere? I have yet to see anyone ever complain about having issues catching up? Not on your post, never on the front page. Not here, not on reddit. No where.
How is it a cheap good item when for 50 more gold you get one that's better in every single way?
Oh and yeah. Jungle Tanks totally need mana. Thats why all the late game tank builds have no mana/mana regen items involved at all. Not saying they aren't gated by mana, but so is practically every champion in the game. Just some fair worse without it. (Jungle Mages)
Fair point I guess, but you do need an understanding of balance, how to read the statistics they get from live, how long to wait before changing something etc, before you criticize them for something they are paid to do.
It's not to say Riot hasn't made goofs or taken a bumpier road to something greater, but by no means are you or most anyone on these boards going to do even slightly better then they do.
Lol you mean 25 upvotes? Wow that's like 25 out of 40 billion players. What about the comment about the Nautilus main with some upvotes saying how he has had no problems catching up with jungle farm? Or my original comment saying I didn't have any issues too?
Or hell just read through these comments, no one really agrees with you at all.
It's only better in every way if you happen to discount all the jungle specific stats on Magus. Which is kind of hard to do. Hell, no reason you can't get both.
Yes, jungle tanks need mana-- or rather, they need their archaic mana pools updated. It's actually one of the things that brought Sejuani back into relevance. Fair to note that IBG/FH and Righteous Glory are decent mana containing tank items. I personally believe every team needs at least on FH.
The mana regen changes didn't affect me one way or another, I just don't like their approach to changing mana users without considering the implications in a game where so many "problem" champs don't use it and are simply made all the better with their competition nerfed.
You mean the Naut who went to lane and caught up through lane experience or the Naut who was in the bathroom when the game started? Missing your first clear is a little easier to come back from then DCing, having to relog, reconnect, and then go jungle. I'm a Naut player. I know what he can do and what he can do. Naut's version of "power farm" isn't exactly impressive. Especially if he's underleveled after the recent nerfs.
Silents4291 votesIt's only better in every way if you happen to discount all the jungle specific stats on Magus. Which is kind of hard to do. Hell, no reason you can't get both.
2250
80 AP 20% CDR
2300
80 AP 20% CDR +100% Mana Regen Grievous Wounds
What jungle specific stats? Because none exist. Plenty of reason not to get both. replace it with any other much better AP item.
Yes, jungle tanks need mana-- or rather, they need their archaic mana pools updated. It's actually one of the things that brought Sejuani back into relevance. Fair to note that IBG/FH and Righteous Glory are decent mana containing tank items. I personally believe every team needs at least on FH.
Most champions need Mana, Tanks only have mana problems jungling on the first clear, which the blue buff handles in the first place. Second clear and onward they have more then enough mana to clear camps and pull a gank off. The problem is Mage junglers don't get this benefit, their mana pool doesn't grow as large, neither does there mana regen, AND they have to use more mana costing abilities. The Magus item does NOTHING to help this, and that is why it is terrible for junglers, and Above shows why it sucks late game as well.
The mana regen changes didn't affect me one way or another, I just don't like their approach to changing mana users without considering the implications in a game where so many "problem" champs don't use it and are simply made all the better with their competition nerfed.
Because before all mana reliant champions had to do was buy 1 mana regen item and forget about dealing with mana. It is impossible for them to accurately account for every single champions affect on an item, and the change has worked out for the better. It doesn't matter if you don't like it, it is simply how it works.
You mean the Naut who went to lane and caught up through lane experience or the Naut who was in the bathroom when the game started? Missing your first clear is a little easier to come back from then DCing, having to relog, reconnect, and then go jungle. I'm a Naut player. I know what he can do and what he can do. Naut's version of "power farm" isn't exactly impressive. Especially if he's underleveled after the recent nerfs.
Obviously you have been playing Nautilus wrong, not only was he buffed, with a god damn wonderful powershift to his E now. But now he clears at a much better pace, and late game melts camps. And you are the only person who has at all said he still clears bad. Behind or not. And reasonable missing the first 10 minutes of a match shouldn't allow your character to catch up to everyone else in a quick manner, because their would be no proper way of balancing the XP gained in the jungle, sometimes shit happens and you DC.
It's amazing that comments about people against your post are mysteriously getting downvoted.
Incognonymous1 votes
80 AP 20% CDR
80 AP 20% CDR +100% Mana Regen Grievous Wounds
What jungle specific stats? Because none exist. Plenty of reason not to get both. replace it with any other much better AP item.
Most champions need Mana, Tanks only have mana problems jungling on the first clear, which the blue buff handles in the first place. Second clear and onward they have more then enough mana to clear camps and pull a gank off. The problem is Mage junglers don't get this benefit, their mana pool doesn't grow as large, neither does there mana regen, AND they have to use more mana costing abilities. The Magus item does NOTHING to help this, and that is why it is terrible for junglers, and Above shows why it sucks late game as well.
Because before all mana reliant champions had to do was buy 1 mana regen item and forget about dealing with mana. It is impossible for them to accurately account for every single champions affect on an item, and the change has worked out for the better. It doesn't matter if you don't like it, it is simply how it works.
Obviously you have been playing Nautilus wrong, not only was he buffed, with a god damn wonderful powershift to his E now. But now he clears at a much better pace, and late game melts camps. And you are the only person who has at all said he still clears bad. Behind or not. And reasonable missing the first 10 minutes of a match shouldn't allow your character to catch up to everyone else in a quick manner, because their would be no proper way of balancing the XP gained in the jungle, sometimes shit happens and you DC.
It's amazing that comments about people against your post are mysteriously getting downvoted.
Yes, Jungler Specific stats-- as in, it's tied to a smite type which grants you bonuses beyond the magus enchantment itself. You can't just look at the enchantment, that's like 1/2 the item. Even if you were just referring to Magus, enchantments are what? 1400 gold? For 80 AP and 20% CDR? Why would you argue that's bad... Granted, it's kind of retarded that Machette's Jungler passive isn't on the upgraded items. Interestingly enough, that passive has a flat mana gain per second. The answer could be as simple as giving the passive to the advanced items.
There's a difference between "using" mana and "needing" mana. And believe it or not, I would say that it actually isn't the first clear where mana is most dire for tanks. It's in sustained periods of farm and/or ganks. Jungle mages have the same problem, but compare base mana pools to tanks:
Malphite: 282
Fiddlesticks: 350
Nautilus: 284
Diana: 297.2
Cho: 272
But of course mana pool isn't everything. What about combo cost? Let's say QWE. Cho has a toggle on E, and Malph's W is a steroid so they will be lower, but:
Malphite: 145 Fiddlesticks: 195 Nautilus: 220 Diana: 185 Cho: 160 (Only QW, but he only comes in 25 mana below Diana)
As far as mana management, at least champions that were sufficiently gated by mana were having to spend thousands of gold to overcome that gate. What does Zed, Katarina, Akali, Riven etc. have to itemize for in order to spam their moves? Nothing. They're not actually gated by anything. Not even cooldowns, as it were.
Even people who agree those changes were Naut buffs admit that he lost damage on his first clear (i.e. the most important clear). The W nerf was actually pretty big. It was a ten damage per hit loss on a 175 range splash for the duration of the shield, which had recently had its base strength nerfed on top of it. That's 40 damage on hit magic lost at Razorbeaks per EVERY autoattack. That's the equivalent of the on hit damage of a Wit's End at level 1. My problem with the changes were less with actual number changes and more with identity changes, but that's for another thread.
p.s. people are downvoting you and upvoting the OP because they agree with me and don't agree with you. Seems like the posters in this thread are just a very loud minority.
Silents4291 votesYes, Jungler Specific stats-- as in, it's tied to a smite type which grants you bonuses beyond the magus enchantment itself. You can't just look at the enchantment, that's like 1/2 the item. Even if you were just referring to Magus, enchantments are what? 1400 gold? For 80 AP and 20% CDR? Why would you argue that's bad... Granted, it's kind of retarded that Machette's Jungler passive isn't on the upgraded items. Interestingly enough, that passive has a flat mana gain per second. The answer could be as simple as giving the passive to the advanced items.
Hardly any of the bonuses a Jungle Mage will make effective use of beyond the chilling smite. Which, doesn't suddenly make the item not suck ass for its targeted champions. I don't know how far you need to delude yourself, but Riot, along with well. Everyone. Agree the Magus is the weakest and least effective of the final jungle items. I am not going to keep arguing over it because your responses boil down to "Nuh uh"
Even if you were just referring to Magus, enchantments are what? 1400 gold?
You mean buying the components to items makes the final total cost of the item cheaper? Whoaaa?
There's a difference between "using" mana and "needing" mana. And believe it or not, I would say that it actually isn't the first clear where mana is most dire for tanks. It's in sustained periods of farm and/or ganks. Jungle mages have the same problem, but compare base mana pools to tanks:
Malphite: 282 Fiddlesticks: 350 Nautilus: 284 Diana: 297.2 Cho: 272
I don't believe you actually at all. I have jungled since Season 3, and the second clear onwards never has had problems. Early season 5 it was never the case either. No one has complained about it then or now. You are just pulling information out of your ass. Now lets get context on your math.
Apart from the fact they aren't done buffing tank junglers, and you mentioned 2 of them who haven't been buffed and don't need them.
(mana/mana regen)
Malphite: 282 - 962/7.3 - 16.7 Doesn't rely heavy on his abilities. Therefore doesn't burn enough mana then the blue/manaregen is giving.
Fiddlesticks: 350 - 1353/6.0 - 19.6 Apart from having a low ass base HP. And having insanely weak AA. Fiddlesticks relies solely on his W and E for clearing, which have high ass mana costs too. He needs the higher base mana in order to clear and then gank. Too bad a jungle mana item doesn't exist to help him out.
Nautilus: 284 - 1134/8.6 - 20.5 First. Yes he got his W nerfed, but compensated with a powerful powershift to his E, and then giving his W more scaling. Why? Because he got buffed from the cinderhulk, and the gromp, and the jungle monsters doing less damage. He has NO issues clearing, and I have NEVER gone under half mana during the first or second clears. If you are somehow having problems then you are leveling something wrong, or your masteries/runes are screwed up.
Diana: 297 - 977/6.0 - 19.6 Can use AA easily. Doesn't spam abilities to clear.
Cho Gath: 272 - 952/7.2 - 14.9 Again. Can just use AA and his E makes it better.
You completely spaced on the fact that while pointing out how much a combo costs for them, they aren't or shouldn't be using a full combo. Which is stupid considering they can't use the full combo on their first clear in the first place. You ALSO forgot to mention the gromp buff doing a lot of damage, ALSO forgot the massive mana regen from the machete/basestats/blue
But obviously you either forgot or just don't want to bring up stats that make your combo cost theory over here invalid.
It's in sustained periods of farm and/or ganks. Jungle mages have the same problem
Any jungler in the game can clear to level 3 and get off a gank, and clear 1 more camp if they are able. That is plenty of mana, and as stated above they have more then enough sources of mana regen to do it.
As far as mana management, at least champions that were sufficiently gated by mana were having to spend thousands of gold to overcome that gate. What does Zed, Katarina, Akali, Riven etc. have to itemize for in order to spam their moves? Nothing. They're not actually gated by anything. Not even cooldowns, as it were.
This is a seperate problem entirely. But I will again point out. How 1 mana item made worrying about mana non existant previous seasons and they aren't expensive.
600
1000
720
Weird. No jungler tanks build these. But strangely our mage junglers have too.
Even people who agree those changes were Naut buffs admit that he lost damage on his first clear (i.e. the most important clear). The W nerf was actually pretty big. It was a ten damage per hit loss on a 175 range splash for the duration of the shield, which had recently had its base strength nerfed on top of it. That's 40 damage on hit magic lost at Razorbeaks per EVERY autoattack. That's the equivalent of the on hit damage of a Wit's End at level 1. My problem with the changes were less with actual number changes and more with identity changes, but that's for another thread.
I can't help but notice how overly bloated this is.
"Nauts buffs were actually nerfs since his W was weakened by 10, and I am not alone here when I say his first clear is slower"
The rest is filler and unneeded. Now then. First. You are wrong. No surprise here, The gromp buff plus his old W would have been absurd amounts of damage early on, and we don't want tanks being that strong early on. We also should mention his W got a higher scaling, and jungle monsters got nerfed damage, making his W last a bit longer to get off more damage then he did before with his W. So the W nerf literally changed nothing from before. Now lets state this again in case you are being slow.
They nerfed the damage slightly on his W. But was compensated with stronger Gromp buff. And weaker Jungle camps.
Old W + New Gromp + Weak Jungle camps means Nautilus would have a really really strong early game, and that isn't how the tank role is suppose to work.
Now lets correct you again on the damage. Now that the W has a slightly higher scaling along with jungle monsters doing less damage, he is able to have it up a bit longer, and 1 or 2 extra AA's means he is doing more damage with his W now then before. His first clear is much faster then it was early this season, Riot teased us this when they were making the changes. Stonewall008 video showed this, no one has said his first clear is slower now. NO ONE.
p.s. people are downvoting you and upvoting the OP because they agree with me and don't agree with you. Seems like the posters in this thread are just a very loud minority.
Correction. You are downvoting me, and no one else has agreed with you in this entire post except you.
At this point I am pretty sure you aren't taking this serious since you are leaving out massive parts to everything you argue. Like why you would calculate the combo of a jungler on their first clear without factoring they won't have a combo at level 1, and that they will have higher base mana by that point anyway.
Unless you have something compelling to respond to that isn't just you saying "nuh uh" hidden beyond bloated text. I am done responding because this is just going on far longer then I care to let it.
Incognonymous1 votesYour entire fucking argument is that jungle mages lack mana sustain.... why in the fuck would you take Chilling and not Trailblazer? Even if it were the case that none of the smite options fit jungle mages, that doesn't mean you can just discount it when comparing Magus to other items.
And "pulling information out of my ass"? Get the fuck out of here, bro. You can't discount information just because you find it inconvenient. Those numbers come from the wiki. Every post you make descends further and further into idiocy and insecurity-- as if you're getting personally offended that someone disagrees with you on the internet and it's cracking your facade. Get mad all you want. You're wrong. Get the fuck over it.
You cite hunter/blue mana regen for tanks... but not mages? Why? What does this accomplish? Your entire argument is that mages are gimped by not having mana regen. Then you cite this. This is the opposite of the argument. This is you admitting there is no problem. Also, "doesn't need mana cuz can AA" isn't an argument for clearing the jungle. It isn't. And anyone can smite Gromp. Also not an argument.
I have never, not once, EVER seen a mage jungler build Tear or Chalice. You're so full of shit I'm surprised your intestines haven't ruptured and killed everyone in this thread.
Naut was nerf/buffed. The onus was moved from early W to late E. An acceptable change, but a nerf to jungle Naut. Homogenization with other AoE oriented tanks so that they can be better blanket nerfs when Riot tires of them. Period. End of story, and "Riot isn't through buffing jungle tanks"? Yeah, no. They hate tanks. They're going to let the meta adjust to strong tanks for a bit and then periodically strip strength away from them. This game is cyclical. This has happened before.
p.s. downvotes cuz dumb. Leave my thread. You're embarrassing yourself.
Silents4291 votesYour entire fucking argument is that jungle mages lack mana sustain.... why in the fuck would you take Chilling and not Trailblazer? Even if it were the case that none of the smite options fit jungle mages, that doesn't mean you can just discount it when comparing Magus to other items.
My entire, and original comment was how it isn't hard to catch up in the jungle. Which you then decided to lead into all the other garbage about everything else. Also trailblazer is for junglers that don't clear camps well. And Mage junglers do not have such a problem, but Fiddlesticks and Diana benefit greatly having a slow. Magus ,isn't being discounted, its still the best item to pick on jungle mages, but that doesn't mean the item isn't shit.
And "pulling information out of my ass"? Get the fuck out of here, bro. You can't discount information just because you find it inconvenient. Those numbers come from the wiki. Every post you make descends further and further into idiocy and insecurity-- as if you're getting personally offended that someone disagrees with you on the internet and it's cracking your facade. Get mad all you want. You're wrong. Get the fuck over it.
"Pulling information out of your ass" as in how you think the jungle works. Yes you used numbers, Good for you, Then I took those numbers, and made more numbers to show how your numbers meant nothing.
And considering half of this paragraph is a poor effort at insulting? Studying character? Who knows, I would say you are more likely the one getting offended over this.
You cite hunter/blue mana regen for tanks... but not mages? Why? What does this accomplish? Your entire argument is that mages are gimped by not having mana regen. Then you cite this. This is the opposite of the argument. This is you admitting there is no problem. Also, "doesn't need mana cuz can AA" isn't an argument for clearing the jungle. It isn't. And anyone can smite Gromp. Also not an argument.
I cite those champions because you cited those champions? Fiddlesticks and Diana are mage junglers I believe too? My argument you continue misunderstanding, the Magus item is the weakest of the jungle enhancements and doesn't give the right stats to mage junglers.
And junglers that can clear okay with auto attacks is an argument, did you know some champions AA better then others? Fiddlesticks sucks ass at it, while Malphite can do it better.
I have never, not once, EVER seen a mage jungler build Tear or Chalice. You're so full of shit I'm surprised your intestines haven't ruptured and killed everyone in this thread.
Wow and you said I was mad? That's probably because they have a blue buff. And if they have no blue, no mana regen items, then they are simply good at mana conserving or you simply are lying.
Naut was nerf/buffed. The onus was moved from early W to late E. An acceptable change, but a nerf to jungle Naut. Homogenization with other AoE oriented tanks so that they can be better blanket nerfs when Riot tires of them. Period. End of story, and "Riot isn't through buffing jungle tanks"? Yeah, no. They hate tanks. They're going to let the meta adjust to strong tanks for a bit and then periodically strip strength away from them. This game is cyclical. This has happened before.
OHhhh you're ignorant hate for Riot is showing, I missed hearing people talk about how much they hate tanks.
And again, go watch someone do a first clear on new nautilus. See how much better it is for yourself. Better yet, Find someone else who agrees that his early jungle clear is worse now.
p.s. downvotes cuz dumb. Leave my thread. You're embarrassing yourself.
Yeah, I am embarrassing myself, I don't know how I will ever show my face again.
You're so full of shit I'm surprised your intestines haven't ruptured and killed everyone in this thread.
They hate tanks. They're going to let the meta adjust to strong tanks for a bit and then periodically strip strength away from them. This game is cyclical. This has happened before.
as if you're getting personally offended that someone disagrees with you on the internet and it's cracking your facade. Get mad all you want. You're wrong. Get the fuck over it.
Go cry and be wrong in another thread. The upvotes have it here, jungle experience is a problem and DCing is a problem. DCing in the jungle is a double problem.
Riot is like the last people that are qualified to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of mana regen.
Except that this is not the season 4 jungle. Nice try though.
Spacesuit Spiff4 votesThat's a nice narrative you have there, but, no. In s4 they made a change to the jungle exp so that if your level falls too low, the jungle monsters start giving boatloads of exp. Grab purple smite and take advantage of the fact that you have 2 charges of smite and you'll be caught up in levels pretty quickly. You'll be behind in gold and probably have to go full tank, but either way as long as your team can survive without you for another couple minutes it's fine. A laner has to go to lane level 1 and try not to die to their higher-level opponent.
Incognonymous2 votesThat's a nice narrative you have there, but, no. In s4 they made a change to the jungle exp so that if your level falls too low, the jungle monsters start giving boatloads of exp. Grab purple smite and take advantage of the fact that you have 2 charges of smite and you'll be caught up in levels pretty quickly. You'll be behind in gold and probably have to go full tank, but either way as long as your team can survive without you for another couple minutes it's fine. A laner has to go to lane level 1 and try not to die to their higher-level opponent.
Except that this is not the season 4 jungle. Nice try though.
Spacesuit Spiff4 votesYeah you're right, s4 didn't have 2 purple smites. They never changed that exp boost (hence why counterjungling never really became a thing since then), so nice pedantry there.
Incognonymous2 votesYeah you're right, s4 didn't have 2 purple smites. They never changed that exp boost (hence why counterjungling never really became a thing since then), so nice pedantry there.
You know what S4 did have?
-built in sustain on all items, not just purple (including MANA) -easier monsters -lower respawn times -higher experience/gold per monster
This is NOT the season 4 jungle. Not even that, but you say "2 smite charges" like it means something. It doesn't. Longer cooldowns until charges return and at this point the damage is fairly low anyway.
And pedantry? It's not pedantry if it's the entire point of the WHOLE FUCKING THREAD. S4 jungle =/= S5 jungle, and DC's suffer for it. I get that you feel the need to plug in big words into dictionary.com to use on internet forums, but perhaps you should probably use more than one to check definitions.
Not only that, your entire argument of ramping experience depends on there being buffs in your jungle. You were just DCd for X amount of time. Red and Blue are gone. Gromp is probably gone. Bots probably taking golems and mids probably take wraiths. This scenario isn't unrealistic-- hell, laners poach shit when YOU'RE NOT DCd. Why would not being there suddenly change that?
elktrkpancake923 votesI think this would hold true if the game were a 40 minute laning phase, but there are ways to make it back. I play pretty much nothing but jungle, and I literally just had a game last night as 
where I dc'd about 5 minutes into the game when windows updates struck again (have disabled auto-updating now, why did I wait so long to do that). It's just a similar mindset to you being like 0-6 and having to make up for the time you've spent dead or walking back out to the jungle.
I was out for a good 5-7 minutes, being level 3 to the levels 7-9 of the rest of the game participants. However, after catching parts of waves when laners were backing or when enemies were splitpushing so the waves were safely attainable under tower, as well as clearing camps regularly, I was able to make it back and also contribute in the very next dragon fight where we went 4-0 and took the drag.
By the end of the game, I was ahead in levels of the enemy jungle 
, despite having about 2k less gold. Sure, it's difficult, but not impossible. Once laning phase breaks there is still always something to be farmed, whether it's in lane or in the jungle. That's something that people seem to forget sometimes, with the mentality that lane phase is for farm and then after that it's full on teamfight or splitpush time. This is why, in a typical I would say mid-gold or below game, even someone who had 100 farm around 13 minutes might find themselves with 130 at 20 minutes, even though the number of minions pumping out of the base never changed.
It just takes that one very carefully executed pick / gank to give you time to soak up some xp, but let's be realistic: shouldn't you expect to be behind for a bit if you aren't out doing anything for 5-10 minutes? I just think it's unrealistic to say you can virtually never recover.
BTW that game is right there on my match history if you want any proof, you'll see a clear window of 0 kill participation from the point of the early Ez double kill to the dragon fight a couple minutes later.
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1771473521/48108599?tab=overview
Incognonymous1 votesSo you didn't actually catch up by virtue of farm in and being in the jungle? That's exactly what I mentioned in the first post. Lane minions jump you so far ahead that you might as well not even jungle if you DC early. Hell, might as well not even jungle at all. I'd be interested to see if a double top actually stays further ahead in level.
Rando McGee1 votesI doubt a duo top would be significantly ahead, though it would probably be close. But then the enemy jungler would have free reign over the map and could gank from behind, have buffs on them 100% of the time, etc., which is a huge downside for the team as a whole.
Incognonymous1 votesI doubt a duo top would be significantly ahead, though it would probably be close. But then the enemy jungler would have free reign over the map and could gank from behind, have buffs on them 100% of the time, etc., which is a huge downside for the team as a whole.
There are a lot of factors there, of course, but I think it could easily be comparable. The split lane gold is a trade off, sure, but I really do believe the experience would mean equal footing vs. even a successful jungler. Especially if the double top crushes the enemy top, gets that early turret, and starts to roam. That's a big lead relatively quickly. I suspect someone would still have to take smite to contest buffs, but keep in mind that they'd be at a higher level anyway, meaning larger smite damage.
Picture a double top transition into single top-jungle. That wasn't uncommon on TT in the past.
4nth0l0gy2 votesI actually disagree. Jungle is one of the safest roles to farm in. So long as you can survive the jungle, you can get experience without the threat of being killed by a lane opponent. I agree it's frustrating to play from behind, but I think jungle is fairly well balanced to allow for catchup experience, too.
SmknWdl2 votesI once d/c'd as smiteless yi (i forgot)... talk about a bad day. I actually caught up, and was doing well but the team (pussies) surrendered at 20. We weren't doing bad either.
LoRdJeSuS69694202 votesI don't see why it would be any different than a laner. The jungle creeps are still weak since they've never been taken; just clear them and you'd be getting the same amount of xp you'd be getting if you were there at the beginning (in other words, about the same amount the laners get)... You're also less likely to get zoned/dived/etc. in the jungle.
Incognonymous1 votesI don't see why it would be any different than a laner. The jungle creeps are still weak since they've never been taken; just clear them and you'd be getting the same amount of xp you'd be getting if you were there at the beginning (in other words, about the same amount the laners get)... You're also less likely to get zoned/dived/etc. in the jungle.
Why are you assuming they haven't been taken? Laners poach all the time, both yours and the enemy's. There's the enemy jungler to consider, who is in your jungle even when you are there. Now it's free reign. The jungle is a harsh place. It's not near so insulating as it used to be. A laner wandering into your jungle while your clearing camps is almost an assured kill, even when you didn't just come back from a DC.
Sammystorm1 votesjunglers have a easier time coming back in because of the ramping exp from jungle mobs where a laner has a substantial stronger opponent 2 feet away.