I want to hear some opinions about what supports should do. The most common topics I have seen for this are:
TehNACHO2 votesThe most important thing in my opinion are these two points:
So to answer your points.
PhantomGG1 votesThe most important thing in my opinion are these two points:
- Don't steal gold from other people. The only reason why the Support role exists is because the map is not designed to support 5 people equally, at best it can handle 4.
- Must be a strong(ish) laner. As bot is the most efficient place to put supports in for a myriad of reasons, and since most of those reasons involve supporting player #4 and protecting them in the laning phase, they got to be either a good buffer or a good bully in the early game.
it's not even designed to properly pay 4, that is why on every pro team where you see 4 hard carry players on the same team they are always failing
Famous examples
Origen TSM
TehNACHO1 votes"At best" was that point really.
PhantomGG2 votesseen for this are:
1-This happens by default, it was a meta stratagy developed in all mobas where at leaste one member will sacrifice experience so a more carry focus champion can get a early lead in gold while haveing a body guard to make up for this champions early game weakneses, if we see literally every moba in the world useing this strat from smite to dota, then clearly it is a good strat that works.
2- your name is literally "SUPPORT" yes, yes you should, more times then not your a tank champ with naturally good stats, what? You want your fucking mid lane ahri building sightstones? or your top lane riven to build them?
3- YOUR TITLE IS ONCE AGAIN "SUPPORT" you have one job, to protect, the adc is is the sword you are the shield. YES
4-Completely match up dependant, if your adc is getting bodied and can barely even farm without getting harrased, no you cant roam, you have to stay with them, if you have a good adc, on a champion who is good at protecting himself then yes you can roam
Bad topic is bad, obvious questions are obvious
TheSlogs1 votesBut the problem is that with this binary definition, in metas like this it is difficult to enjoy support, so you start to see a lack of support players. By removing the constraints of the definition - being a tool to enhance your ADC's potential - you could possibly help with the drought of players wanting to play the role.
PhantomGG1 votesBut the problem is that with this binary definition, in metas like this it is difficult to enjoy support, so you start to see a lack of support players. By removing the constraints of the definition - being a tool to enhance your ADC's potential - you could possibly help with the drought of players wanting to play the role.
Supports are hella fun, the only reason people don't find it fun, is for they want to play mid lane, pretend they are good, build full ap and one shot people, it takes a calculated personality to find the joy in landing a proper thresh hook.
Support is fun, people are just to stupid to understand the joys of it, it like trying to ask a dumb ass party football jock to understand the beauty in art.
TheSlogs1 votesOkay so the multiple flaws I see in this are: First, we are referring to the role "support" as designated by the new queue, which is in bot lane. Second, I can prove that there is a decline in total satisfaction by the reduction in support players, as can be shown in the queue and agreed upon by the general community.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, however it is a flawed logic to say that, because you find them to be "hella fun," that others must think that as well.
PhantomGG1 votesOkay so the multiple flaws I see in this are: First, we are referring to the role "support" as designated by the new queue, which is in bot lane. Second, I can prove that there is a decline in total satisfaction by the reduction in support players, as can be shown in the queue and agreed upon by the general community.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, however it is a flawed logic to say that, because you find them to be "hella fun," that others must think that as well.
no everything about your logic is flawed ._. what your asking for is to remove the job of support more carries, this will be my final post, you have absolutely no comprehension on how mobas work or how support works.
TheSlogs1 votesOkay, I am sorry that you can't have a legitimate debate. If you change your mind and perhaps think of a way to contribute to the conversation other than insult me, tell me I am wrong, and say that I am stating something that I am not, with no real supporting evidence, please feel free to come back.
Dominick Destine1 votesWarding.
Baby Ghoul1 votesScapegoat.
weeaboomer1 votesBe fun.
Very Hard Engage1 votesthe supports job is to protect their carries. which generally means warding the river and brushes to protect your ADC from the enemy mid/jungler. you back up your carry or initiate for them whenever it would be an optimal time to do so.
using the minimap is a big help, see that zed go MIA heading through his bot lane brush? you should probably ping danger over your adc and mid mia and start backing yourself...
its not necessary for you to pretend to be a conjoined twin, but you absolutely should be there for him while both of you are in lane together, dont leave him when hes level 4 and both of them are level 5.... for instance.
all of this is based solely on what gets you the win more often. which is why off metas sometimes work, but its just for the benefit of the team that you dont take minions, stick with your adc, buy a sightstone, get some cdr, dont focus on damage or killing an enemies carry, because your team already has the damage it needs to win a team fight.
ArlanKels1 votes"Jobs" doesn't really work in this game. It's a team game. The jungler's "Job" can be considered to "Gank" and create "Pressure", but depending on which Jungler you take they might also have the job of "Counter-Jungling" and some even are "Heavy Farmers" due to needing to build up to a high gold count before they're usability becomes obvious.
However the job of "Gank" and "Pressure" can also fall to the rest of the team. I have both done and seen, as many of you as well, mids go to gank bottom or top, top going to mid to gank, bottom moving up toward the mid(Or even top) to gank.
And even then "Counter-Jungling" can also fall into the hands of the rest of the team. One of my friends has a bad habit of going support and actively disrupting the enemy jungler in the early game, forcing either his team to try and coordinate/pincer him or simply making it so the enemy jungler can't properly do what he needs.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that the Support doesn't really have a "Job" because EVERYONE shares the same job. Win. As soon as you demand specific duties from a single role/person you're making it so the team itself doesn't work together toward that common goal, they'll slack off and be like "Well the Jungler can ward not me..."
TheSlogs1 votesThe term "job" is one used quite often when referring to what supports do. I did not mean it in any way to be negative, it is just using terminology that I see used on the boards.
ArlanKels1 votesThe term "job" is one used quite often when referring to what supports do. I did not mean it in any way to be negative, it is just using terminology that I see used on the boards.
I know nothing negative was meant. No worries buddy.
However think about this: We're calling what we do in a video game we play for fun a "Job".
Jobs are not fun. Perhaps there is a fundamental issue here that needs to be addressed?
Vincenttnecniv1 votesI wish theyd remove sightstone and the other warding items except for trinkets. 2 wards per person is more than enough
KazaJhodo1 votesThe reason you hear so many different things is because all of those are important, and a support does all of them depending on the situation. So, in order to be a great support, you have to be first great at assessing situations.
For instance, a super super useful trick is keeping track of how your enemy laners move. When they suddenly change their pattern, you know something has changed right? Generally this means something, did they move back? Forward? Both could mean their jungle is coming- they want to let you push, or the jungle is almost there and they want to tangle you up. Simply seeing a difference in behavior can trigger you to gtfo. Assessing situations.
This carries over into nearly everything. Can we all-in our lane? Can we trade our lane? Can we trade them down and then all-in? Can I deep ward their blue, can I roam mid to gank. All of these things come from assessing the situation.
To more specifically address your question:
Supports should have less income, because your income is going into the carry.
A support should be more situationally aware of where jungle is, if top has tp, and if mid is in lane. You should ward more. This has a few varied benefits:
A support should be the most map aware and ping the most in my opinion. You don't have to cs, so all of that attention should be spent else where. The better you get the easier it will become to do all of this at once.
Being attached to your carry, thats a tricky one:
Back to assessing your situation. If you leave, can your carry 2v1? Can your carry easily cs under tower? Is he good enough to cs under tower and pressure or will you frustrate him and he won't understand why you left? Can they dive your carry under tower? Where is their jungle? How much time will you have before your carry is forced under tower? Does the enemy have the lane frozen out on him so he can't get exp?
All of these questions help you arrive at the answer. The basic question is, will you gain more or lose more by leaving lane? You will lose exp, your adc will gain it. Will you be right back? If you drop a deep ward, will the jungle even be there any time soon, where was he last? Is everyone else where they belong on the map so you won't get caught? If you get caught by the enemy jungle can you get away? If you screw up is it worth your flash or will you need it to engage a fight?
If you want to leave your adc, first, be sure hes strong enough to leave- and good enough to leave. If he/she/it is fed and goes ham and just dies, its a huge waste. Leave he/she/it warded up. If they are pushing a lane out alone, leave them wards if you need to be with your team for a seige/split senario. If you can't leave your adc safe, don't leave. If your team isn't safe because you and your carry aren't there, ping them back or set the wave to push and goto them.
All in all there is no this is what you do all the time. You assess and adjust to the situation. You may make a decision and the see the enemy jungle on a ward headed toward your carry- well, its time to change your mind and go back to your carry.
Assess and react. The best supports will do all of those things you mentioned exactly when appropriate for the situation.
TheSlogs1 votesI will have to agree with most, if not all of what you have said, but I guess that wasn't the type of response I was hoping for xD. I think the idea of this post in my opinion is to address the declining popularity of the support role, and what can be done to change it. It's not to say there isn't a lot to supporting, as you have demonstrated in your post, it is rather complex requiring a lot of thinking. I just think perhaps too many people are getting bored of what it is, especially combined with the new meta where you can't get to the late game to become your own champion separate from the carry.
KazaJhodo1 votesI see. Well, I think the answer to that is simple. If you want to be your own champion, in regards to having the power of other champions in the game, your adc has to be weaker- or you simply play a different role.
It sounds like the core issue here is that you want to be your own champion. Because as support you can certainly make and setup tons of plays.
Really nothing has changed in regards to the role, you never really became a separate entity from the adc before, your fates are intertwined- thats why its called support right?
I think if this is how you feel you would be more cutout to be a solo laner or jungler. That has all of the things you describe, support does not.
TheSlogs1 votesI think perhaps then I have approached this with the wrong explanation. However it is impossible to deny that there has been a decrease in people willing to play support, and this is something generally agreed upon by players and shown with the new queue. What do you think has caused this then?
Chickendoodles1 votesI think perhaps then I have approached this with the wrong explanation. However it is impossible to deny that there has been a decrease in people willing to play support, and this is something generally agreed upon by players and shown with the new queue. What do you think has caused this then?
I honestly think that people are disliking support mainly because that is what they get when they want to play their primary, so they are just getting annoyed overall.
KazaJhodo1 votesI don't think this something resulting from the new q. Even before when you were picking your role in champ select- or being forced into it, support by far and away is always either what the bad players want, or what no one wants.
For instance if you are uncomfortable with the game or new, support is a great place to go. You are with someone else in lane, so its not as easy to get blamed/flamed, you don't have to cs, in many ways support seems easier.
Once people are more familiar with the game, I think in general people no longer want to play support - not because of the q, but because of a variety of reasons as follow:
You have to rely on others to 'carry' the game.
Its not as rewarding directly.
You have to have a different mindset.
To be a great support, its very difficult.
Bottom lane has a target on its back.
Lack of coordination.
Overall I would argue that this is all nothing new, the new q just gives an appearance that its new. There is nothing here that didn't exist before. We just notice it now because if you select support as an option you instantly get into games, if you choose fill you'll often get support. This happened in team builder before as well, this is why the q times were always long. You always knew what roles you were waiting for.
I think there are a variety of other causes as well that further complicate this problem. For instance if you have a bad adc that seems like he shouldn't remotely be in this division by how he is playing... and he chose the role.... players are not accurately placed within the ladder.
I go into that with some detail and ideas to fix in this post: Ranked Improvement Suggestions
EvilRabbitt1 votesIf you pick utility yes. If you pick kill, no. CS for adc kills for whoever gets it. (Braum, Raka, Nami, Thresh, Blitz should not get kills. Katarina, Lux, Annie etc may fight for them).
No. Warding is 4 wards a player HOWEVER you can't buy greens so at best 3. This means everyone gets blue trinket or sweeper and a pink ward. No exceptions. Not my fault you died off at the enemy red buff with no vision.
Same as above. I'm not looking out for you I got too much on my plate to save your ass for not looking. Jungler on the other hand has more time since they just pve.
Like answer 1, it depends. Utility stay with your adc. Kill go roam. If you sit in one lane it better make your adc so potent you could let them 1v1 anyone. Otherwise go get mid and jung rolling so they can carry mid game.
All my opinions of course. I play bronze and my adc's never carry just complain. Meanwhile jung and I hook up to carry.
Narsicus1 votesThe #1 role of the support should be to provide utility to the team. Traditionally utility abilities do not scale, thus making supports far less gold reliant and enabling them to give up their portion of resources to their allies who require the income to better fulfill their roles.
To change this would require a complete rehaul of the revenue streams in the game as well as how things like cc duration scale with stats. It might make supports getting legitimate percentages of team gold more likely if cc's scale but no one wants to get hit by that 600 ap Nami Q that lasts for 5.8 seconds and no support wants their utility abilities balanced around them building lots of ap.
On a side note here I really like Nami's E scaling for how this works, building a lot of ap changes how you use it so that subsequent bounces begin to be more effective than the initial cast. Building AP changes the way you use the ability, you can still rely on the first cast even if you don't have a lot of it but if you do it gives you a little extra.
On the other numbers obviously the rest of the team should help with vision and be aware and everything, but playing support means you should be open to helping out in whatever way you can. Vision is traditionally a thing that supports do because they can afford to without any loss to their utility, so it makes sense that they choose to invest in it more than other people. As to the map awareness, sure your allies SHOULD have as much map awareness as you or anyone else. But what is going to help the team more yelling at them to have more map awareness or pinging beforehand and maybe stopping a death?
Lastly the support, like every role in the game, should play the role their team needs to win. If that is babysitting Kog so he stays alive through a teamfight than that's what you should do. If your adc isn't being useful and you feel that your efforts are better used helping a different ally or locking a few enemies out of a fight while your team cleans out their front line than do that. It depends on the situation and I am not about to pretend I have the right answer for every possible situation out there.
Honeslty these questions remind me of how people thought of Tanking in WOW. Bad tanks think their role is to take a lot of damage and survive, Good tanks realize their role is to win the encounter and they do whatever they have to to make that happen.
PhantomGG1 votesThe #1 role of the support should be to provide utility to the team. Traditionally utility abilities do not scale, thus making supports far less gold reliant and enabling them to give up their portion of resources to their allies who require the income to better fulfill their roles.
To change this would require a complete rehaul of the revenue streams in the game as well as how things like cc duration scale with stats. It might make supports getting legitimate percentages of team gold more likely if cc's scale but no one wants to get hit by that 600 ap Nami Q that lasts for 5.8 seconds and no support wants their utility abilities balanced around them building lots of ap.
On a side note here I really like Nami's E scaling for how this works, building a lot of ap changes how you use it so that subsequent bounces begin to be more effective than the initial cast. Building AP changes the way you use the ability, you can still rely on the first cast even if you don't have a lot of it but if you do it gives you a little extra.
On the other numbers obviously the rest of the team should help with vision and be aware and everything, but playing support means you should be open to helping out in whatever way you can. Vision is traditionally a thing that supports do because they can afford to without any loss to their utility, so it makes sense that they choose to invest in it more than other people. As to the map awareness, sure your allies SHOULD have as much map awareness as you or anyone else. But what is going to help the team more yelling at them to have more map awareness or pinging beforehand and maybe stopping a death?
Lastly the support, like every role in the game, should play the role their team needs to win. If that is babysitting Kog so he stays alive through a teamfight than that's what you should do. If your adc isn't being useful and you feel that your efforts are better used helping a different ally or locking a few enemies out of a fight while your team cleans out their front line than do that. It depends on the situation and I am not about to pretend I have the right answer for every possible situation out there.
Honeslty these questions remind me of how people thought of Tanking in WOW. Bad tanks think their role is to take a lot of damage and survive, Good tanks realize their role is to win the encounter and they do whatever they have to to make that happen.
off topic but i feel the way you judge a tanks skill is to observe his ability to rotate agro with the other tanks, this is best shown during a raid, their truley is a art form in juggling agro in a raid, to then abuse the agro settings in such a matter where the boss even forgets the existance of your carries.
Valderis Vandala1 votesShould a support have any difference in gold income or levels compared to other roles?
No but it can't be helped much. More needs to be done to come up with solutions but it will always stay a problem due to having 5 people on a map with only 3 lanes and a jungle. At least its not as bad as it used to be in terms of gold.
Should a support have more of the responsibility of warding?
No but it allows for a form of power that's mostly unrelated to your kit or numbers, so giving it disproportionately to supports gives them more power to influence the game.
Should a support be more map aware or ping more?
No but its one of the roles that doesn't need to focus on CS so its a little bit easier to do?
Should a support be attached to their carry, or should they split and do their own thing/help other lanes?
Depends on your kit. Anything is possible. But not everything is practical.
Chickendoodles1 votesI want to hear some opinions about what supports should do. The most common topics I have seen for this are:
- Should a support have any difference in gold income or levels compared to other roles?
- Should a support have more of the responsibility of warding?
- Should a support be more map aware or ping more?
- Should a support be attached to their carry, or should they split and do their own thing/help other lanes?
1- I would say yes, the support sacrifices their potential to make money in order to let their carries get what they need quickly
2- This is yes and no. Every member should be warding to some capacity whether that is with pinks or stealth wards but when it comes down to setting up objectives (Baron/Dragon) the support is probably going to be the one that does that quickly since he has the sightstone and can quickly get down 3 wards.
3- As a support main, I pay close attention to the map and ping for other lanes, however I will not say it is my responsibility to watch other lanes because everyone should be paying attention to the map whether for picks, ganks, etc.
4- I would say supports should be near the ADC early on, but once the opportunity arises mid or the lower jungle where a roam would get a kill, they should because they arent exclusive to just the ADC. ADCs like to think that supports are their slaves but in reality they are there to help the entire team. This is not to say the support should leave the ADC a lot to try and make plays because that is just going to put the ADC in a bad spot but enough to help jungle/mid
Erockandroll1 votesMore or less unavoidable, there are too many problems that would crop up trying to bolster the Supports gold/xp. (mainly in terms of making farming a moot point) however, on a champion to champion level, higher than normal XP/GP could be an appropriate niche. (Like Bard or Zillian with there XP steroids)
yes, but not by that much. Even if you removed the Per champ limit, one champ isn't going to be able to cover the map. Also since the Support is going to be fairly squishy. (even for some of the tank supports.) They will have trouble if they need to face check just to drop vision.
More to say that a support should be a shot caller, considering that map awareness isn't going to do you anything without action. A support can do that, since there role allows them a higher level view of the field. But I wouldn't say it's a hard and fast rule.
This can vary from support to support. Many supports, you do want to roam with. But you shouldn't be attached to the ADC. Just about anyone can baby sit the carry. and later in the game, a Tanky Jungler would better protect the ADC than a Squishy support.
Horse Grenades1 votesThis entire post and all the comments made by the OP are so pointless and painful to read. I can only assume he also writes Riot's ability tool tips.
TheSlogs1 votesGlad to receive your thoughtful criticism.