All these unbalance posts on the front page make me feel old in terms of my League experience.

Doctor Dyment··191 votes·7,228 views

So many people are upset about balance now and days, saying this season is unbalanced as it has ever been. There's a guy up there who said he was around since Season 3, and yadda yadda yadda. These younger League players (in terms of years played not actual age) didn't know what it was like back then. Back in the dark ages. During old League, there wasn't really a team. There were five players on a team, and five players on an enemy team. You took turns slugging it out on the jaw before one team died and you won the game. Jax used to be unkillable, with free dodge chance and the ability to dodge fountain shots with his E. Tryndamere used to be able to use his ult to survive fountain shots too. Feral Flare was basically Devourer, but even worse to go up against. I bet half you new fish don't even remember what Ninja Tabi used to do. Ever wonder why Ninja Tabi gives you armor, despite being called "Ninja" and having the blur effect behind them in the icon? Those used to give out dodge chance. Release date Darius was a terror to behold, Master Yi could build full AP, heal everything you dealt at him with his Meditate and then proceed to kill you anyway. LeBlanc and Kassadin both had silences, and could both lock you in a silence tornado of CC before snuffing your pathetic candle of a life out with a fucking tsunami.

I get it, balance is kind of wonky right now. Actually, it is REALLY wonky. But when you play for so long, you see the patterns and the changes. People always complain about balance, people always complain about champions they deem overpowered, people always cry over the smallest of things. This game used to be so simple. But over the years it evolved, and became more and more complex. You might as well rename the game "League of Math" for how much arithmetic I need to do in order to properly calculate if X amount of skills will deal Y amount damage to remove Z amount of health and win the duel. Evolution may seem bad, jarring at times. Sometimes Riot seems to throw darts at a wall of post-it notes with balance information on it blind folded and implements it into the game. But you just have to roll with the punches. Speak up against unjust things, but don't scream. A sane man on the street'll ignore you if you scream at him as apposed to talk to him. And that's just what the men and women at Riot are, people. They'll make mistakes. You have to see them not as a massed together gray blob known as "Rito Game" but as individual people trying their damnedest to keep a successful company running, and maintain a healthy relationship with the player base.

AUTHOR'S NOTE: This is, to be honest, an extremely heartfelt post. I don't know if that'll stop you from downvoting me or just leaving me to the abyss of obscurity, but please try to consider what I have just said. I just realized today that I have played this game for six years now. Six fucking years. I wanted to make this post to explain my feelings. The feelings of someone who thinks that maybe the mindset of the original generation of League players is outdated and does the game more harm than good now and days. Try to have fun out there, okay?

-Solomon

EDIT: Front page. Thanks.

156 Comments

WalkingInACircle14 votes

Maybe, but I played dota 1 back in 5.84b, and I'll say this:

League's balance sucks right now. Sure, okay, dota 1 never had the kind of information infrastructure that leads to people actually knowing what is overpowered, which means you could pick crap and the enemy would pick crap too. League? If its strong, people abuse it every game. And Riot should be able to know this stuff, and do things like nerf Fiora already. But they don't, and that is really frustrating.

Ralanr9 votes

Abuse everything.

I hate it but it's true.

cuddlykitten44 votes

Your tier affects that kind of stuff. Lower skilled players have issues with things that higher tier players don't. Fio, for example. The lower tiers hate her. They scream she's op. The lower tier also has issues kiting, which is her counter. Same with Xin. He's not actually that strong. He's just powerful early. In low ELO people tend to not ward. IF you don't ward you don't see him coming, at this point he destroys you. Enough of this and he spirals. Sometimes the reason riot doesn't change something is because players confuse their underpowered playing to be overpowered champs.

LF Annie2 votes

when a obv less experienced player tries telling you, you know nothing.

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Mdb7c895adacad3c5f32d0af6df6286a0o0&w=300&h=247&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

cuddlykitten420 votes

Is that like when a lvl 14 posts talking shit about experience? Even if it's a smurf, you should have had the sense to get on your main for that one. It's like calling someone stupid while holding a report card full of Fs. Way to insult fail.

LF Annie1 votes

cant, my main is banned from the forums because i asked riot to ban it.

cuddlykitten421 votes

aaaaannndddd........you just lost all validity

63536895_DEL23 votes

Well the thing is, we tried talking with Riot, they didn't listen and made the game horrible, so now we're screaming.

For example Patch 6.2 Us: Please don't let these Xin buffs go through, he's not in the best spot right now but these buffs aren't the answer. Riot: Buffs Xin Patch 6.3 Us: WHY THE FUCK DID YOU BUFF XIN Riot: We feel this is the right direction. Us: Filling the boards screaming about how bad the balance team is.

Sammystorm55 votes

Riot is kind of in a catch 22. On one hand the boards get irritated when they don't listen like Xin Zhao. On the other hand boards gets irritated when they do listen like skarner.

Honestly the OP couldn't be more dead on.

Retillin15 votes

Well the problem with Skarner (as was said over and over on the PBE) was that he is strong near his spires but was weak everywhere else. So they buffed him right before release to live. And his numbers were high away from the spires, meaning he was a god near them. Basically just a bad design choice. As Riot has hinted at not being happy with the spires.

Sammystorm4 votes

That may be true but a lot of the more public complaining that was seen was that all the other juggernauts were too strong but skarner was too weak. Another example, if you would prefer, is veigar post rework. People kept complaining about how weak he is but eventually riot through listening to the community buffed him to be too powerful.

PixTron4 votes

Veig wasn't even that GOOD when he was buffed, being a Veig Main back throughout S5 myself. Even when Froggen used him, and he became this TP Mid, he was OK, but nowhere near the level of Zed, Ahri, Yasuo, etc.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

This ^ they heard us say he was too weak, so they buffed him without taking into account why we thought he was weak. Then they didn't give enough time to test out the buffs they gave him. That has nothing to do with the feedback and everything to do with the people listening.

Mecha MaIphite29 votes

Us: Skarner, Garen, and Darius are so weak. Buff please. Riot: Ok. Us: WTF SO BROKEN RIOT IS DRUNK WTF CERTAINLYT Riot: :(

Rikari4 votes

I don't remember anyone saying darius was weak.

Captain Aishi9 votes

anyone who looked at his stats on his rework's release... the guy was abysmally weak it was actually pathetic his Q cost 30 mana at all ranks and he'd run oom using it before actually dealing 100 damage to a shen, would get killed by maokai all-ins, etc.

SpecterVonBaren14 votes

............ -_- Since when was a 30 mana cost high when some people have 130 mana cost basic spells...

Captain Aishi8 votes

that's what i mean, it was basically the lowest mana cost spell in the game, and you would go OOM spamming it dealing no damage because it was so bad

The Soulforged2 votes

I don't think anyone wanted him buffed though.

KaisadiIIa5 votes

Let's dispel with this fiction once and for all that players were responsible of Skarner, Garen and Darius. They were weak in the PBE and so the players said, then RIOT buffed them shortly before releasing them to Live and people had no time to figure out their new strength level.

Ethyreon22 votes

Back in the day, when Ethyreon was only level 10 he discovered a champion called kassadin. His q had a 3 second silence with a range longer than caitlyn's auto attack range. Both this ability and his e had about 280 base damage at max rank on top of 70% ap scalings. His ult also had a much lower mana cost, twice the range and a 70% AP scaling. All lil Ethy had to do was mash q in lane and he would terminate anything that showed up on the other side of midlane and then he could easily take over the game by one-shotting everything with his absurd AP burst. His entire match history would soon be entirely full of kassawin victories.

Remember children, this was a time when there were actual new players and the smog of toxic smurfs hadn't choked them all out yet. The other noobs didn't stand a chance. Eventually, pro players also realized what an op monster kassadin was, and kassadin reached one of the highest ban rates of any champion in soloq, and a basically 100% pick ban in pro play. This went on for over a year.

League is not the most balanced it ever has been right now, but it far from its worst. Riot is also more responsive to op champs than ever before. Increasing levels of competition at the highest level cause a hyper awareness of the meta. Additionally, more people are continually exploiting smaller and smaller advantages. Now, simply giving a few free things here and there can send a champion from relative obscurity to being a must ban.

Personally I'd say the balance teams only big mistake were the juggernauts. Skarner and Mordekaiser are worse off then when they started while Garen and Darius are basically the same. The worst part is any idiot could have told you that patch was completely asinine (Yup I'm still bitter about Morde). Other than that they have basically only improved at their jobs since the beginning. And their job is getting harder. It took a long time for a champ as insane as Kassadin to be discovered en masse. Now OP champs are discovered overnight.

I'd personally guess Riot is trying to make champions generally stronger rather the playing nerf whackamole with every new power pick, and things might take some time to get worked out. Some champions are ALWAYS going to be stronger than others. At this point what makes one champ better than another will soon come down to only minutiae. My only apprehension is that I think Riot introduces new variables to quickly which is making getting the game as balanced as everyone would like it basically impossible. This is one things that Dota has generally done better, but I don't really want to get into league Dota comparisons right now.

Basically I'm agreeing with the OP and trying to pitch in with a little perspective.

BastionKross6 votes

This went on for over a year.

Now this is an interesting statement. It's true, I was there for it as well. And if Riot's balance team back then had two brain cells to rub together, it wouldn't have lasted one month; let alone one year. This was back when if a champion was a serious problem the standard operating procedure was to gut the living hell out of them, leave them there for a couple years, then put them on a rework list that only kept getting longer. Hell, Yorick is still on that same list today.

But for some reason, despite him singlehandedly making all games have five bans for an entire season, Kass wasn't meaningfully touched. That's not ignorance at that point, that's neglect. And Kass was only the worst example, not the only one. Nid back then used to take off 3/4s of a squishies health with one Q, from the fog of war, with a hitbox the size of a Morgana Q. Renekton ruled top lane with an iron fist, to the point where Riot attempted to buff other top laners up to the "Renekton bar", and failed miserably. Lee was the king of the jungle, but I'm tempted not to count that since Lee is the king of the jungle every season (especially when Worlds is close).

Riot nowadays isn't neglectful for the most part. They're so much quicker at bringing things down to a reasonable level today then back then. There are a few exceptions like GP, but at least they haven't been fucking things up for a year or more.

No, current Riot's balance problems are more quantity over quality. Back then we had a handful of really powerful champs lording over everyone else. Nowadays we have several handfuls of slightly less powerful champs lording over everyone else. It's certainly more diverse, I'll say that. Instead of having three champs being very powerful top lane, now we have six or seven to choose from.

So... progress? A step maybe not in the right direction, but sort of diagonally towards it? Baby steps where the baby got dizzy and sort of veered off to the left? Either way it's certainly better now than it once was, but it's still far from where it should be.

Dreadlocks15 votes

You are missing the point.. Riot has had very balanced patches, but then they decide to fuck it all up...

look for yourself: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/eIHzP7QJ-im-just-going-to-say-it-i-miss-season-5

Smithney4 votes

I'm not sure how the old item 1401Sejuani fits your idea of very balanced. While I enjoyed the era as well, I have to admit that an "enjoyable" meta is just a matter of taste. The reign of Cinderhulk had to be incredibly frustrating to assassins, bruisers and early-game carries (e.g. MF), as much as the current meta is hostile to the likes of JarvanIV or Syndra. (sidenote: I was actually sifting through champion.gg to look for crippled champions that aren't either extremely high-skill or suffering from Yorickitis, I actually couldn't find too many glaring cases, unlike in some other metas I have experienced).

I think cases like XinZhao or KogMaw are slip-ups that aren't too hard to be fixed and are being overstated by the community (not saying that they are not a problem, they definitely are).

Retillin2 votes

But it's not just Xin and Kog. They are just the straw that broke the camels back. The marksmen update lead to a LOT of unbalanced play. Add in Fiora/GP/ect. So this is a lot of frustration boiling over.

Smithney1 votes

I'm not sure if you understood me well. I'm not saying this meta is more balanced than the past ones. What I'm saying is that meta will always be playing favorites. Just because someone doesn't like the meta doesn't mean the meta is bad. As far as I know, a lot of the most frustrating outliers either are or have been addressed by Riot (like the ones you mentioned).

Issues with Xin and Kog are being caused by a bad buff, while Fiora and GP have long standing flaws in their designs. As you said, they are the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back, but what I am trying to say is that they should be easier to fix than the other champions you named.

Retillin1 votes

Well, when Riot remaked a lot of the kits in the past year wasn't the goal to make the champions healthier? I remember see that tossed around a lot with the reworks from GP on. Yet, as you said, Fiora and GP have flaws in their designs. That leads to hesitancy from the players, which is another source of frustration.

Truth be told, it doesn't feel like Riot has a design philosophy in place for their balance department. They'll nerf a low play rate champ because of a Keystone (Swain) yet they turn around a buff a champion that synergies really well with updated items (Xin). All we, as players, can do is take Riot at their word. But at some point if we don't see those words/goals being kept, well then I don't know what to say.

Smithney2 votes

I have to remark that both Fiora and GP had more significant flaws before their reworks. While now they have balance issues, Fiora used to have a worryingly binary kit and old Gangplank was a walking stereotype armed with an unsynergistic kit.

The rest is up to speculation. I personally don't feel like Riot are doing a terrible job at the overall design, but perhaps they could improve their balancing. In the end, the ultimate goal of League's balance isn't actually to make it balanced, but to keep it as fair as possible. _ EDIT: After watching the video I'm linking, I feel like I need to disclaim that certain details of the video concerning LoL are dated. Not that you couldn't still find elements of cyclical imbalance in the League, but a big part of its fun factor is erased by the mainstream nature of modern LoL. The part I want to highlight is from 0:26 to 4:16._

cuddlykitten44 votes

Lol, they have always struggled to keep Xin in line. His kit is just hyper powerful. They nerf him hard every so often to keep him down, but then eventually they try to show him some love. He takes their love, cheats on it, makes it watch, and then does it again. It's not that they make him OP, he just kinda takes it from them.

Vistha Kai3 votes

It may have been frustrating for assassins and the like, but you fail to see the most important thing here.

Assassins by design aren't suppose to jump on tanks.

The fact they can is a sign of imbalancement.

Gorgiolio1 votes

But cinderhulk tanks were suppose to be able to jump on anyone and kill them themselves? I watched a nautilus solo a vayne who was played by Gosu during that patch. It was utter shite.

Vistha Kai2 votes

I'd love to see that.

But it must've been full AP Nautilus.

Dominick Destine13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JBGkbqkE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-14T03:45:21.001+0000)

So many people are upset about balance now and days, saying this season is unbalanced as it has ever been. There's a guy up there who said he was around since Season 3, and yadda yadda yadda. These younger League players (in terms of years played not actual age) didn't know what it was like back then. Back in the dark ages. During old League, there wasn't really a team. There were five players on a team, and five players on an enemy team. You took turns slugging it out on the jaw before one team died and you won the game. Jax used to be unkillable, with free dodge chance and the ability to dodge fountain shots with his E. Tryndamere used to be able to use his ult to survive fountain shots too. Feral Flare was basically Devourer, but even worse to go up against. I bet half you new fish don't even remember what Ninja Tabi used to do. Ever wonder why Ninja Tabi gives you armor, despite being called "Ninja" and having the blur effect behind them in the icon? Those used to give out dodge chance. Release date Darius was a terror to behold, Master Yi could build full AP, heal everything you dealt at him with his Meditate and then proceed to kill you anyway. LeBlanc and Kassadin both had silences, and could both lock you in a silence tornado of CC before snuffing your pathetic candle of a life out with a fucking tsunami. I get it, balance is kind of wonky right now. Actually, it is REALLY wonky. But when you play for so long, you see the patterns and the changes. People always complain about balance, people always complain about champions they deem overpowered, people always cry over the smallest of things. This game used to be so simple. But over the years it evolved, and became more and more complex. You might as well rename the game "League of Math" for how much arithmetic I need to do in order to properly calculate if X amount of skills will deal Y amount damage to remove Z amount of health and win the duel. Evolution may seem bad, jarring at times. Sometimes Riot seems to throw darts at a wall of post-it notes with balance information on it blind folded and implements it into the game. But you just have to roll with the punches. Speak up against unjust things, but don't scream. A sane man on the street'll ignore you if you scream at him as apposed to talk to him. And that's just what the men and women at Riot are, people. They'll make mistakes. You have to see them not as a massed together gray blob known as "Rito Game" but as individual people trying their damnedest to keep a successful company running, and maintain a healthy relationship with the player base. AUTHOR'S NOTE: This is, to be honest, an extremely heartfelt post. I don't know if that'll stop you from downvoting me or just leaving me to the abyss of obscurity, but please try to consider what I have just said. I just realized today that I have played this game for six years now. Six fucking years. I wanted to make this post to explain my feelings. The feelings of someone who thinks that maybe the mindset of the original generation of League players is outdated and does the game more harm than good now and days. Try to have fun out there, okay? -Solomon

Wall of text strikes **YOU **for 6,194 points of damage!

FantasySniper9 votes

Screaming? Oh, no, no, this is technically chanting now.

http://img.pandawhale.com/77535-wrestler-NO-NO-NO-gif-WWF-Imgu-cLym.gif

Auz the Ripper8 votes

I remember when every AD built nothing but item 3071 and maybe item 3117 . Then came League of item 3083 Then item 3153 Then Feral flare Then Feral flare 2.0 (item 1415) Then what were we talking about again?

YCitizenSnipsY7 votes

Here is what happened, one thread got a lot of attention for complaining about the balance team, it even got Red responses. Now everyone else is trying to get the same attention by doing the same thing. That's why there are like 20 of these balance team threads and complaint threads.

It just another Flavor of the Day thing to complain about on the boards.

Doctor Dyment11 votes

People will always complain. People'll always do what they think makes them popular.

Troll for Trump2 votes

That includes complaining about the complainers

Doctor Dyment4 votes

If you are trying to say that I made this post just so I could get popular by complaining about complainers, then you are just a bit off sir.

Troll for Trump2 votes

People'll always do what they think makes them popular.

Titanium704 votes

What really bothers me about League, is Riots decision to build Assassins as a new class, their decision to keep them always viable and than calling the worst lane experience in the game Zed healthy. Dont get me wrong, we always had Assassins, we had Eve, Talon, LB, Shaco, Fizz someone would mention Teemo and Twitch and we had DFG. Those guys created a playable Sub-Class but only had success in experienced hands. Most players considered LB (WITH HER SILENCE!) or Talon weak, because their lack of Teamfighting potential. (And they were completely fine at that point. I played LB regulary because she was fun.)

Why? You may ask. Because in older days, we had a ton of targeted abilities to elimiated squishy melees with ease when they've made a mistake. Today, you have to throw so much on a single squishy without any guarante for a kill for the sake of 'counterplay'. (Fun thing.. those Assassins them selfe tend to lack this holy counterplay... so much that our only option left is to counterbuild them....)

To make thing clear:

I'm sad that League lost alot of its 'strategic' aspects and gained alot of 'action and reaction' aspects - some may like it, I as Chess and RTS-Player definately dont - sorry

cuddlykitten45 votes

Wait.....you are under the impresion that Talon and LB used to be weak? I dont' even need to finish your post to know you have no clue.

RasCaelestis3 votes

They used to be considered weak by the forums. There were a few of us that recognised the cheese for what it was and spoke out, but we were downvoted into oblivion and told to 'get gud' and 'lurn2dodgem8'.

My friend mained Talon in those days, and I played a lot of immobile mages. I saw my friend wreck face with Talon, regardless of who/what he was against, and I was so very glad that he was on my team. Even back then, Viktor was my most-played champion and LBs had a field day against me. It was a nightmare and there was nothing I could do. In-game I am normally a very positive person, with a 'we can still win this' attitude. Fighting LeBlanc made me want to surrender five minutes into the game.

In those days Zed was also considered to be one of the weakest assassins, and looking back I don't really disagree. Sure, he was annoying, but I'd have much rather fought a team of Zeds 1v5 than fight even one LeBlanc back then.

Odinakos2 votes

Confirming that LB has been considered UP for long periods even with silence. One classic was "How to beat LB? rteach lvl 14". And even when Rito was nerfing her because she was strong, people were screaming "Omg why nerf LB UP just pink ward her!". And still dominated professional play. Not denying thought that she was also considered OP also. Really the community were frustrated of her.

Titanium702 votes

LOL! There was a time when LB and Talon where nothing else but cheese picks for normal games and smurfs! You got flamed for picking LB! And those complains where legimate to some degree! Assassins could only do well if those playing them where really good players.

Nowadays Assassins are among the most popular Champions! Obviously because everyone can pick them up and get fed.

Nah... w/e

I dont' even need to finish your post to know you have no clue.

I cant expect any form of civilized discussion here anyways.. so why do I even bother...

CeexSett3 votes

The 95% Ban rate Kassadin (If Kassadin went through the champion select the game was probably over, even if that guy just bought Kassadin). The Kayle reign of terror in season 4, where she was the best pick in every role (maybe except support). The Assassin meta, where we had Zed top, Akali mid, Rengar Jungle and the game was decided by who blasted the enemy assassins faster... The League of Black cleavers where a Pantheon's E would reduce your armor to -10 with the 3 ticks and there were in average 10 Black Cleavers in each game.

I may not be that old in play (played since season 2), but something were just utter hell, and I don't know how did we survive those... I may not have met release TF, release Xin Zhao or even release LeBlanc, but when people complain about Kog'Maw being broken...

BluePolarizer2 votes

uh no.

Feral flare was inferior to devourer.

HighH17 votes

It was better than devourer,just not sated devourer

Auz the Ripper5 votes

The original Feral Flare was better than sated. It transformed from wiggles lantern at 25 stacks and it counted the monsters you killed before you upgraded machete

Then Feral Flare itself got three damage on hit per stack against monsters and a heal equal to the number of stacks.

Against champions it only gave 1 damage on-hit but still gave the full heal on-hit.

Imagine the current Xin Zhao, now Imagine every champion healing like that That was the original feral flare.

More from Gameplay

More by Doctor Dyment