Could we make Irelias stun duration scale on the Targets health difference agasint her?

ModAcademy Kayn·Aug 14, 2015·66 votes·6,716 views

Irelias stun is frustrating to play against, that sums it up. You're punished for doing well against her.

So what if we made Irelias stun duration based on the percent missing health difference between her and her target?

If target has 1% - 20% higher health then Irelia, then the stun last for .75 seconds. If the target has 21% - 40% then it stuns for 1 second 41% - 60% stuns for 1.5 61% - 99% stuns for 2.25

This would stop her from assassinating carries for doing one ranged auto against her, before she closes the gap, while keeping close battles against her fair, since in a 1v1, both of your healths should be declining, keeping them within a fair percentage.

This also helps her against opponents who are snowballing, since a well timed stun at low health could turn the battle for your team. That's just my thoughts at Irelia.

72 Comments

IonianAug 14, 20159 votes

.75? That's literally how long the cast animation is. Wouldn't even be worth using then. How about you try to stay away from low hp minions? Or buy a qss?

Crowe StalkerAug 14, 201533 votes

Chogath Galio Gragas Malphite Maokai Nautilus Rumble Ryze Do any of these Champions look like they want to buy a item 3140 an item costing 1500 gold that gives magic resist against an AD/True Damage Champion and whose active has a 90 second cooldown verses a 10 second cooldown? 'Buy a QSS' is not always a viable argument, nor should it be. 'Don't be close to low-health minions' and 'Buy a QSS' aren't always viable strategies and the fact those are the only two you suggest implies in and of itself how ludicrous the stun is.

IonianAug 14, 20153 votes

Do you think I want to buy a qss when I'm Ahri vs Malzahar ? No. But I have to. Some abilities can only be counterplayed by items. Like Zed's ult. If you spend those 1500g on damage items then you'll be doing less damage than if you spent it on a qss because you'll be dead. It's logic.

HaIlMonitorAug 14, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0w65wng,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T11:51:23.986+0000)

Do you think I want to buy a qss when I'm vs ? No. But I have to. Some abilities can only be counterplayed by items. Like Zed's ult. If you spend those 1500g on damage items then you'll be doing less damage than if you spent it on a qss because you'll be dead. It's logic.

????????????????????????????? item 3157 > Zed ult ???????????????????????????????

IonianAug 14, 20153 votes

"Some abilities can only be counterplayed by items. Like Zed's ult"

Is Zhonya not an item anymore? Huh.

HaIlMonitorAug 14, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0w65wng,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T12:15:38.252+0000)

"Some abilities can only be counterplayed by items. Like Zed's ult"

Is Zhonya not an item anymore? Huh.

I am just wondering why you would buy a item 3140 when you can build a Zhonya's on apc

Almighty TeemoAug 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0w65wng,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T11:51:23.986+0000)

Do you think I want to buy a qss when I'm vs ? No. But I have to. Some abilities can only be counterplayed by items. Like Zed's ult. If you spend those 1500g on damage items then you'll be doing less damage than if you spent it on a qss because you'll be dead. It's logic.

I totally agree with you, it also gives some nice MR. And add a morellonomicon to reduce her healing(and if you're full AD, you can get a wit's end to proc the morello). Also get a warmog's and a randuin's to mitigate her true damage, and hope she doesn't get botrk.

All Day Tay TayAug 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

and if you're full AD, you can get a wit's end to proc the morello

what

Rustling BushAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do any of these Champions look like they want to buy a an item costing 1500 gold that gives magic resist against an AD/True Damage Champion and whose active has a 90 second cooldown verses a 10 second cooldown? 'Buy a QSS' is not always a viable argument, nor should it be. 'Don't be close to low-health minions' and 'Buy a QSS' aren't always viable strategies and the fact those are the only two you suggest implies in and of itself how ludicrous the stun is.

though to be fair, the sale price is like what 875 or something, so in actuality its more like a 325 gold in the longer run

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 20151 votes

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't recommend using it at the beginning of a fight. Save it for when you're sure you're losing, heavily.

IonianAug 15, 20151 votes

E stuns if you're both 100% hp, so it's ok to use at the beginning.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20151 votes

Well im talking about my suggestion of the change, so I wouldn't recommend using E to get a .75 second stun at the start of a fight. Save it for a close duel, or if you need to get away

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 15, 201514 votes

.75? That's literally how long the cast animation is.

Standard cast time is 0.25 seconds actually, and I believe Equilibrium Strike is a standard cast time.

darkdillAug 15, 20152 votes

So what is your thought on the topic's suggestion?

buster kitonAug 14, 20153 votes

Before fiddling around with the stun, I think they should try nerfing E's base damage to make maxing it less appealing.

LankPantsAug 14, 20154 votes

Before fiddling around with the stun, I think they should try nerfing E's base damage to make maxing it less appealing.

They did that already, most Irelia's max W now.

It's 21.5x more common for Irelia's to rank W-E-Q over E-Q-W, which are by far the best two ways to skill.

IonianAug 14, 20153 votes

You max E-W-Q if you can burst the enemy laner ( Akali Diana Fizz Vladimir Riven ), they have something that ruins your W dps ( Jax Malphite ) or they're just too strong to 1v1 early ( Darius JarvanIV Pantheon Renekton ). For everything else you max W-E-Q. Always max Q last.

Diananmen SquareAug 14, 20153 votes

This isn't needed.

Just reduce the stun duration to like 1/1.125/1.25/1.375/1.5 seconds There you go, she now has a handleable stun that requires her to invest points into it rather than your idea, on which she could just max W-Q-E and obliterate squishies

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 201510 votes

I don't think you see my point, if you think a max health Irelia, could assassinate a max health squishy, with a .75 second stun. The entire point is to make the stun more of a "Im being bursted, better even the fight" instead of "I took an auto first, sucks to be you".

The point of it is to even match ups with Irelia, and to stop her from being able to assassinate carries, while also becoming a sort of Anti-burst warrior, since if she is bursted down, she'll have a higher stun to even the fight.

LadyRenlyAug 14, 20152 votes

Why is Irelia the one champ that people think is busted for having a stun? Half the champs have some form of cc.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20155 votes

Its not the stun that is being complained about. Its the objective behind the stun. To stun, your opponent needs to be of higher health then you, therefore you are punished for doing well against her.

Did you auto attack her first? Stunned. Did she take a bunch of minion agro then came for you? Stunned. Is it a close duel between you and her? Stunned?

The problem escalates when she starts diving your carries. Did you fire one, single auto attack against her? Well have fun getting stunned for 2 seconds straight, while she pummels away at your face.

hashinshinAug 15, 20151 votes

I think of it as a stun that is punished for her doing good.

kile147Aug 15, 20152 votes

The issue is that in lane she doesn't have a weakness. You should never let someone like Irelia dictate when a fight is going to happen, but if you try to dictate the fight then you get punished by being stunned for 2 seconds during which time she can probably at least evenly trade the damage you dealt to her. You both disengage with even health (if you are lucky) which she immediately heals back. Now you have the disadvantage in lane and letting her choose when you fight could be fatal, but firing the first shot is still dangerous because if you damage her too much she stuns you and then gets a free kill.

With the proposed change it would make Irelia hard to force out of lane because even when low she has a long stun to even the tables, but when you are about even with her she no longer just auto-wins trades. The entire idea is that Irelia becomes more dangerous when behind, not insta-wins trades by getting hit first.

hashinshinAug 15, 20152 votes

Uh, Irelia has a huge weakness in lane. It's called either a lane bully, or getting out scaled. Irelia is pretty firmly in the mid game territory. Champions like Olaf bully her all day, Maokai/Gnar out scale her, and now Fiora does both to her.

The proposed change would make Irelia even more useless than she currently is in the current meta.

kile147Aug 15, 20152 votes

Irelia has a 53%, 54%, 55%, and a whopping 65% win rate against Olaf, Gnar, Maokai, and Fiora respectively. I'll concede that the Fiora stats aren't representative yet because she hasn't been out long, but regardless Irelia wins more games than she loses against all the champs you just listed as "counters". Irelia is even listed as being Olaf's biggest counter so I'd say that regardless of your experiences with her statistically she is a lot stronger than you give her credit for.

http://champion.gg/champion/Irelia/Top

GallowgrimAug 15, 20152 votes

Or, she is fighting harder as she's losing. Fits her entire 'determinator' gimmick.

It's a niche. It fits her as a character.

Points for choosing a lesser-seen target to complain about, though.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20155 votes

Or, she is fighting harder as she's losing. Fits her entire 'determinator' gimmick.

For your second point, yeah it fits her theme... doesn't mean the stun itself is fair.

For the first point though, when an Irelia stuns an adc, who has the same percent health as her, and proceeds to murder their face off, how is Irelia losing? How is having 1% more health than Irelia mean that Irelia is losing? The concept is fine, but its entirely unhinged in its point.

Lunar3dgeAug 15, 20152 votes

This change seems to contradict the rest of her kit. Everything else, except her q heals her, so the difference will be continually lowered as the fight continues. If her e duration doesn't scale on duration, then many Irelias would max their q second, which isn't good. Maxing the q second would make her initiation deal more damage and lower the difference in hp and make a smaller stun. If the e doesn't scale, it should probably be reworked in some other way. Also, in many cases, if there is a 61%-99% difference, the stun probably no longer matters. I would make it something like 61%-80% stuns for 2.0 and 81%-99% could stun for 2.5. But that still makes for a pretty small stun unless it doesn't matter.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20152 votes

The Difference will be continually lowered as the fight continues.

Slight difference, if Irelia is winning the fight, she doesn't get the stun at all. She's winning. But if you're winning, she gets to stun you and proceeds to win the trade herself. Are you beginning to see the problem here?

The skill is called Equilibrium. The point of my suggested change is to make it less of, I win whether or not I'm ahead of a trade, and more of, I was losing a trade, but now we're on fair ground. Which, you guessed it would make it equal.

Lunar3dgeAug 15, 20151 votes

I think I like the idea of giving her increased healing on her w as the health difference increases instead of doing that with the stun and just changing the e entirely. Although that would change how the champion works. Balancing is difficult.

HaIlMonitorAug 14, 20151 votes

The other big problem is if you went through with this and she put a 2.25 stun on someone like and ADC they would be dead before out of it. So it might "fix" one problem but causes more.

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 20151 votes

Like Lank said, you'd have to have quite the health difference to put that large of a stun on her. The idea, is to stop the assassination of carries, because Irelia took a single auto before dashing to you and stunning ya.

HaIlMonitorAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Like Lank said, you'd have to have quite the health difference to put that large of a stun on her. The idea, is to stop the assassination of carries, because Irelia took a single auto before dashing to you and stunning ya.

The way the it already works is you have less hp. I think is more of a lane nerf then anything. She will still jump on carries and blow them up.

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 20153 votes

Blow them up in .75 seconds? Current Irelia gets a 2 second stun against anyone with higher health, to kill someone, but having a full health carry and a full health Irelia, she's going to kill them in .75 seconds with out anyone interfering?

You're being pretty vague on details so this is all I can assume that's what you're trying to say.

HaIlMonitorAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Blow them up in .75 seconds? Current Irelia gets a 2 second stun against anyone with higher health, to kill someone, but having a full health carry and a full health Irelia, she's going to kill them in .75 seconds with out anyone interfering?

You're being pretty vague on details so this is all I can assume that's what you're trying to say.

If she fly's into the enemy team she would be missing health by the time she gets up to the adc... or if they are kiting her at first or whatever. Regarless when she gets next to someone unless she is really fed the stun is going to be a while. And to be honest I dont understand why you hate on her so much when champions that actually matter are in the game.

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 20151 votes

If she fly's into the enemy team she would be missing health by the time she gets up to the adc

If she flew into the team, why would you let her get to your adc? That is the worst case scenario. How would Irelia get past your tanks, cc, slows, burst, etc? If you let her get next to your carry when she's that low to have a 80% health difference, its not going to take long to kill her after wards.

kJsAug 15, 20151 votes

Well Irelia has passive increased Tenacity for the slows, stuns and silences for exactly that situation. Though I'm not saying she can swathe through your entire CC composed team all the time, just that with proper baiting of abilities and positioning Irelia can get to the carries pretty easily.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20151 votes

If she is able to maneuver her way through your team to get your carry, she kinda deserves to deal damage to them. She got through your wall, so now she's gonna wreck it. The Irelia who can get past your front line, obviously put some thought in how to get there, putting together a plan to do it. People are smart, they can do things.

kJsAug 15, 20151 votes

Yes. It happens all the time in every game that has Irelia that I play in.

When Irelias can 100-10 the ADC or AP carries with just a Triforce and 4 other tank items, she will be difficult to kill afterwards, especially now that one of your squishy carries are gone.

ModAcademy KaynAug 15, 20152 votes

Irelia, imo, is pretty much a ball of stats. An unstoppable ball of stats if she gets rolling. Her kit doesn't allow much outplay potential, for her opponent that is, so going up against her usually feels very... unfair?

SkiasAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Irelia, imo, is pretty much a ball of stats. An unstoppable ball of stats if she gets rolling. Her kit doesn't allow much outplay potential, for her opponent that is, so going up against her usually feels very... unfair?

That's her problem. She either has more stats then you and wins every engagement or has less then you and does nothing.

LankPantsAug 14, 20151 votes

If target has 1% - 20% higher health then Irelia, then the stun last for .75 seconds. If the target has 21% - 40% then it stuns for 1 second 41% - 60% stuns for 1.5 61% - 99% stuns for 2.25

How would this work with ability ranks though?

At rank 1 would the 1-20% stun be shortened down to 0.375 seconds AKA nothing?

Would it just not scale with ranks and make ranking E completely worthless? Would that also make her slow duration 2.25 seconds on rank 1 E?

The idea isn't bad but there's still a lot of problems that would need to be solved. Also Irelia would still punish you for doing well against her, probably even more so than she does now.

My Waifu VanillaAug 14, 20152 votes

I think the idea is to not completely punish someone for BOTH of you being at max health or have close health. Considering most Irelias max E now it is very difficult to fight her in lane after level 7 due to an on demand stun that lasts 2 seconds and has no counterplay to. It's let her have higher health and then you die or you drop her health and then she stuns you and you die anyway.

LankPantsAug 14, 20151 votes

As I mentioned somewhere else most Irelia's max W. It's 21.5 times more common to max W over E.

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 20151 votes

I'd think that the stun duration would scale on the percent missing health difference alone, not with Levels. This promotes Irelias maxing something else first, while keeping close trades close.

LankPantsAug 14, 20151 votes

It also has a side effect of making her level 9-13 even more prominent since she can effectively have max rank W and max rank E at level 9 and at 13 she has the 'full' effect from all of her abilities.

ModAcademy KaynAug 14, 20153 votes

Have you seen Elise? A non-scaling cc is not a rarity.

LankPantsAug 14, 20152 votes

Have you seen Elise's power curve? Having a non-scaling CC serves to make you more powerful early while becoming weaker into the late game.

Also Elise's E scales at 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2

Old Man TeetoAug 15, 20151 votes

Would be a harsh nerf to Irelia, who is mainly a duelist and suffers in team fights.

If they reworked her E, and I do like the idea you put out, she would need something substantial.

This sort of nerf makes it so that Irelia either never really gets her stun, or is just using it onto targets she isn't focusing or as an escape.

Currently, Irelia works well against champions who tend to do a lot of damage at the start of a trade, putting her lower than them, so she can stun them then use her Hiten Style to make the trade favorable with it's sustain/damage.