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Don't buff Sejuani or Sion.... Buff Cinderhulk.

Painted Celt··127 votes·8,062 views

I will try to keep this brief. For a while now, Sejuani and Sion buff requests have been surfacing on the boards with some frequency. Now, don't misunderstand me - Sejuani and Sion may or may not be in a bad spot right now, but directly buffing them would be a mistake and I will explain why.

I personally enjoy playing Sion. I even "mained" him before his rework. However, I am not so biased as to not see that even in his current state, Sion is still a decent jungler WHEN COMPARED TO MANY OTHER TANK JUNGLERS. Statistically, Sion jungle is actually pretty middle of the pack while Sejuani is lower-middle tier. However, when you actually take a look at the statistically worst junglers (by winrate), you will find that the bottom 5 list is entirely comprised of Cinderhulk users (all of these use cinderhulk in their highest winrate jg builds). [Source Champion.gg] http://i.imgur.com/0IaYLAf.jpg

So, as much as it may appeal to Sejuani and Sion players to have their champions specifically buffed, doing so is going to still leave the majority of other tank junglers in the dust... And don't even get me started on non-meta tank junglers that aren't listed on the database sites. Simply buffing the average/sligtly-underaverage tanks will leave even less reason to ever play the most struggling tanks.

My personal opinion is that in order to achieve an actually balanced and diverse tank jungler pool, we should start at the root of the problem. Buffing Cinderhulk will remove all need to buff Sejuani or Sion while also lifting up the dregs of the jungler pool in a fair manner. Of course, some champions that were 'balanced' with the already nerfed Cinderhulk in mind (ehem... Skarner) might need to be looked at, but even so this remains the simplest, fairest, and most logical course of action.

I would personally like to see buffs to the Immolate passive on Bami's Cinder and all items built from it. This would also help resolve Sunfire Cape being overshadowed by Deadman's Plate. In these examples, the damage is made to scale with current health in stead of per level. This passive would essentially work as a "soft taunt" encouraging enemies to attack the tank in order to reduce their damage output. The improved damage scaling would help tanks clear better early on and draw enemy fire later on. This buff is going to be especially important with the situation that champions like Dr. Mundo are going to be facing in the pre-season...

Bami's Cinder Immolate: Deals 7 (+0.5% of the owner's current health) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. Deals 50% bonus damage to minions and monsters.

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Cinderhulk Immolate: Deals 14 (+1% of the owner's current health) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. Increases with time in combat up to 21 (+1.5% of the owner's current health). Deals 50% bonus damage to minions and monsters.

.

Sunfire Cape Immolate: Deals 30 (+0.75% of the owner's current health + 0.75% of the enemy's current health) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. [Note: This change would help define a niche for Sunfire Cape as an item best in "Tank/Bruiser VS Tank/Bruiser" situations (top lane).]

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Thanks for reading! Be sure to show your support by commenting and voting in the poll. If you don't agree with the proposed Immolate buffs, and have something else in mind, please post your suggestion. I am very open-minded to other solutions.

120 Comments

Prospector Pete40 votes

Plus with the new ADC changes that will make them super OP, Cinderhulk will be left even farther behind.

TurquoiseYoshi12 votes

Plus the buffs for early-game Warrior.

Melledoneus25 votes

LeeSin I don't see a problem with this. As a matter of fact, I don't see anything at all.

Du Ma Mi28 votes

{quoted}

LeeSin I don't see a problem with this. As a matter of fact, I don't see anything at all.

A poem by: LeeSin

Rose are black. Violets are black. Everything is black. I cannot see.

Westonbirt2 votes

He can hit things pretty good though.

XeroKimo11 votes

LeeSin : Blindness is no impairment against a smelly enemy

Draqone1 votes

{quoted}

LeeSin : Blindness is no impairment to a smelly enemy

you mean "against a smelly enemy" I hope....

XeroKimo1 votes

I shall edit that right now :)

Du Ma Mi1 votes

You were... so close with that edit. So. Damn. Close.

XeroKimo2 votes

ALMIGHTY GRAMMAR NAZIS FORGIVE ME FOR I HAVE SINNED!

LankPants18 votes

I think Sej and Sion do both need independent buffs, but I'd agree that Cinderhulk should be buffed first. I just think after Cinderhulk is buffed to a reasonable level they'd still be bad because they were individually overnerfed as well as having their items overnerfed.

Only Play Darius8 votes

RekSai isn't even a tank jungler lol. Riot just nerfed her into that state.

To think that there was a time item 3074 was core on her....

MealReadytoEat7 votes

I wrote a post in counterpoint to yours, but I'll post it here as well. Sorry for the strange narration for a comment.

There's a very popular post on the forms right now claiming that rather than Sion and Sejuani being too weak, Cinderhulk is too weak. The post largely accomplishes this by pointing out the bottom 5 win rate junglers on champion.gg, Gragas, Olaf, Nautilus, Maokai, and Rek'sai, are Cinderhulk users.

They then fail to mention that all 5 of these champions have been nerfed severely because of their strengths and popularity in pro play, yet even still two of them, Gragas and Rek'sai, were played just almost as much as every other jungler combined in this year's worlds. They also fail to note that 6 of the top 20 junglers by win rate are dedicated Cinderhulk users, with many of the 14 others flexing into it. Cinderhulk junglers are as a whole performing about as well as every other jungle item, which like all the others, includes quite a lot of variance between its users. To be fair, the post does mention Skarner is performing fine statistically, although they attribute it to him being unbalanced in general. The only reason the five lowest win rate jungler use Cinderhulk is because tanks with high reliability and teamfighting utility dominate the pro scene whenever they are strong, and thus get repeatedly nerfed in order to make room for other options. Gragas, Olaf, Maokai, and Rek'sai are the worst offenders of this, so it's no suprise they have low solo-que win rates.

As I detail in my last post, strong damage itemization for tanks in Cinderhulk and Thornmail crowded out typical damage junglers for a good part of this season, just like anytime itemization lets one class fulfill the roles of another while still fulfilling their own. Thanks to innate armor or HP scalings many tanks are already uniquely problematic at beating other roles at their own game whenever they have strong itemization, and brutal DPS options, like the writer of the post calling Cinderhulk underpowered wants, would trivialize every other option.

There's no easy solution to the performance disparities between junglers, but it's not from one jungle item being too weak or too strong overall right now. Certainly, some champions utilize certain jungler items better than others, but as a whole right now this comes down to individual champions, not the items relative power towards each other.

The pre season brings about quite a few changes to the jungle, which I detailed in my last post, as well as some itemization changes that make tanks considerably stronger, which I'll detail in my next post. I have hopes that these will being greater variety to the game, unlike the complete removal of champion that wasn't a hyper carry, a support, or tank like the Cinderhulk meta did, despite any false nostalgia.

Decrit7 votes

Just don ' t use solely champion.gg to determine if a champion needs to be buffed or not.

Some of those you listed - aka Gragas, Nautilus, Rek Sai but also Maokai - are dominant picks already in pro play thanks to the cinderhulk nerfs. They have a lower win ratio because in unorganized groups they perform far worse compared to other champions, but if you add some reliability on top of that there will be no reason to pick any other champion beside them! This then can translate too in soloQ if a player can pick them well and in ranked teams or premade teams, that will then be able to use all of their power.

What are you proposing now will only result in a plethora of bans for them. I agree some ADC items are a bit too much powerful but then tackle them, not bring up what made Cinderhulk users OP!

junglerboy162 votes

Maokai has been out of meta for several months now, and Gragas received several nerfs and doesn't really show up in pro play anymore either.

Only Rek'sai still shows up because Riot doesn't nerf her more than a love tap every now and then.

Crett6 votes

Woah WOAH Woah Woah. Last thing tanks need right now is more damage, no one likes getting assassinated by a tank. TahmKench is gross enough right now

If I could have my way, I'd buff Cinderhulk's bonus HP multiplier to 30%... but that's just me

Painted Celt19 votes

Yep, buffing the health modifier could also work. Like I said, I am open-minded to all sorts of solutions to this balance issue.

There is one thing I want to point out though. Since you mentioned Tahm TahmKench, buffing the health multiplier would still provide him with more damage due to his powerful health scaling passive on his ultimate. If Tahm became more problematic with buffs to these items, it would probably make the most sense to target his ultimate's passive.

Edit: Something else to note is that increasing the health multiplier to 30% would probably actually add a lot more damage to any champion that can build Titanic Hydraitem 3748 than the buffs I suggested to Immolate. This would be especially true when looking at the "burst" factor of the user, since Titanic Hydra's active effect instantly deals 10% of the user's maximum health in damage. Immolate is probably actually safer to buff if the intent is to avoid tanks assassinating people.

ofart1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Painted Celt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IxK4U6EK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T00:39:35.149+0000)

Yep, buffing the health modifier could also work. Like I said, I am open-minded to all sorts of solutions to this balance issue.

There is one thing I want to point out though. Since you mentioned Tahm TahmKench, buffing the health multiplier would still provide him with more damage due to his powerful health scaling passive on his ultimate. If Tahm became more problematic with buffs to these items, it would probably make the most sense to target his ultimate's passive.

Edit: Something else to note is that increasing the health multiplier to 30% would probably actually add a lot more damage to any champion that can build Titanic Hydraitem 3748 than the buffs I suggested to Immolate. This would be especially true when looking at the "burst" factor of the user, since Titanic Hydra's active effect instantly deals 10% of the user's maximum health in damage. Immolate is probably actually safer to buff if the intent is to avoid tanks assassinating people.

Tahm is so overrated (at least in solo-que). He doesn't win in any ELO bracket or position. Even in Diamond, his highest winning position (JG) is only at 49%.

The Taco Kat1 votes

Win rate doesn't mean balance. Damage, K/D/A, and counterplay are the usual things to look at. For example, Azir has about a 43% win rate in Platinum+, but deals a TON of damage while being able to peel and zone extremely well. Tahm Kench has a lot of raw damage (onto a single target) and free stats, on top of a ton of cc. He doesn't need any big nerfs though, but lower his Devour damage to 30% instead.

Jbels5 votes

{quoted}

Woah WOAH Woah Woah. Last thing tanks need right now is more damage, no one likes getting assassinated by a tank. TahmKench is gross enough right now

If I could have my way, I'd buff Cinderhulk's bonus HP multiplier to 30%... but that's just me

Tahm Kench LITERALLY does less damage than Sejauni and Zac do in a full rotation, will you STOP with the god damn damage complaints for Tahm

Crett4 votes

32% max health on devour

But about his ult, I mean, damage scaling with health isn't always that bad. But right now I'm pretty bitter about how much damage is flying around in this game, and the only way tanks can compete is having a bunch of damage of their own

Jbels5 votes

{quoted}

32% max health on devour

But about his ult, I mean, damage scaling with health isn't always that bad. But right now I'm pretty bitter about how much damage is flying around in this game, and the only way tanks can compete is having a bunch of damage of their own

Yes, 32% max health. Let's look at an ADC's max health, say, Ashe. Let's assume Tahm and Ashe are both level 9 because That's when Tahm's W would be at rank 5 assuming you maxed it first. At level 9, Ashe has a base health of 1060.

Tahm has 2 points in Q, so it does 125 damage, and at level 9, he'll have 78 AD. Let's assume it took Tahm a Q and 2 AA's to get the Ashe up to 3 stacks of AAT. That's 125 + 78 + 78 damage, or roughly 281 damage. Now let's add the 339 damage from his level 5 Devour, and you've got 620 damage total. Now after his immediate burst damage, I don't believe Tahm would have his Q off of cooldown fast enough to get another one out, but let's assume he did, that's another Q plus maybe another two AA's. So that's 620 + 160 + 125 = 905

Now let's look at Sejuani, who with 5 points into her Flail, gets up to 160 + 18% max health damage to her target every 7 seconds, 3 if the cooldown begins at cast and not at end of ability, which I'm not currently sure about.

So lets assume sej ran into Ashe in the jungle and immediately pounces onto Ashe. her dash will only have 1 point in it I assume, so that's 80 right there. 18% of 1060 is 191, and assuming Sej can get about 3 AA's in during the duration of her Flail, that's 80 + 80 + 80 + 80, or 320, + 191 + 160, so 320 + 191 + 160, or 671 damage total. We've already surpassed Tahm's immediate burst damage, but just for shits and giggles, let's factor in her ult and E anyway.

Her ult is an additional 150 damage, and her E is another 90, so 240 altogether. 240 + 671 = 911 damage. But lets say Sej got an extra AA during the slow from E, and another from the stun. That's another 160 damage. 911 + 160 = 1071 damage. That's more damage than Ashe actually has health. But no, Tahm's damage is disgusting. Fuck that immobile bastard who has to fulfill conditions to get all of his damage off.

Axis the Dragon4 votes

Did you take into account that Tahm's ult passive gives him %hp scaling on all of his autoattacks and spells? Just making sure for the math, here

Jbels2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IxK4U6EK,comment-id=00000004000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T04:45:08.161+0000)

Did you take into account that Tahm's ult passive gives him %hp scaling on all of his autoattacks and spells? Just making sure for the math, here

I estimate at most the biggest item Tahm could have at level 9 is a Deadman's plate, which is 600 bonus health, so an extra 24 for each one, which is still miniscule, and puts him in the same ballpark as sejuani is in. Everyone can complain that Tahm does "Too much damage" for a tank, but I assure you, he's doing just as much as he should be, and if Sejuani is allowed to do that much while having a mobility spell and a long range initiation hard CC, than Tahm, who has neither, shouldn't have to be bitched about.

Axis the Dragon3 votes

Oh, sure, I was just asking for the math accuracy lol

While I'd rather have a very good Tahm over a very good Sion, I'd much rather have a bad Sion or Sej over a bad Tahm. To be frank, the main issue with the Kench is the really good players that seem to be everywhere around the map, saving allies 24/7, Devouring the perfect targets, all while dealing Sejuani level damage. I have nothing against Tahm Kench himself, personally - just the players that can play him perfectly when they're against me. xD

Battlecast Sona2 votes

I haven't seen a Tahm go cinderhulk in ages. I see a lot of devo/titanic though. D=

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Devo/wits end then straight tank is my preference. True damage Devours man.

Bladerunner77776 votes

Cinderhulk doesn't feel like a powerspike anymore compared to warrior or runeglaive. Whenever I rush it I just think to myself: "Well, this will be really good when I have 6 items" and at least Devourer feels like "This will be a huge powerspike in 15 minutes"

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

This^

It is especially sad since some junglers just don't even finish it until later since it isn't really worth the 1400 gold investment after the smite item compared to spending 1400 gold on an item that will build into something that has a better power spike. Some hardcore tanks I will probably finish it on, but if I am playing someone like Skarner I would much rather get my Phage for BC before I finished the Cinderhulk.

Vlasimuthe5 votes

The problem right now with Sion is his w, if they could revert the activiation nerf back to 2 seconds he would be playable. His e should stay as is because it was too good but he needs his w to trade decently.

Spoofghoul5 votes

It is funny how i tend to build devourer now on most jungle tanks, simply because it gives much faster cleartime which allows me to atcually impact the map.

kaltenashes5 votes

idk if i'm that bad, but i bought sejuani some weeks ago to play her as jungler (I LOVE this role) and all my 5 games i did horribly bad

i can play vi/shy/xin/panth/eve/diana jungle and i normally do well ,but sejuani or she's in a pretty bad spot right now or i'm the worst

Hinagiku333 votes

Well Riot did just rip out 50% of the damage on Sejuani's primary damage ability soooo...yeah, it's not you

Captain Lito4 votes

Please Riot, you had the perfect level of diversity when Cinderhulk was strongish (not when it was broken, I mean after its first nerf). Please, please just give it some love along with returning some of Sej's w damage and making Sion's passive better. (There was a big thread on the latter, I'll try to find it later if I can)

azrolator4 votes

A tank has to have enough resist/health to survive the initial burst, and has to have some reason to make the enemy not ignore him. Right now there are tanks that aren't like that at all, but they don't seem to have the damage of a bruiser either. It is going to be hard to build a tank from what I hear with all the damage introduced. I think some of these champs are just going to end up on the bottom of the scrap heap.

Zelphon3 votes

Honestly, they should just up the damage multiplier against monsters.

Seems like the greatest weakness of a lot of tank junglers is their clear, so buffing that weak point could only prove beneficial.

doubleguac3 votes

I was a huge fan of Sion post rework. Still play him from time to time.

I can't speak for sej, but IMO, a big problem for Sion right now is the meta. When cinderhulk was in, popular teams mostly consisted of one mega-tank (cho, sej, sion, gragas) and a bunch of squishies. Sion did well in this environment.

The black cleaver rework, followed by the juggernaut patch, opened the door to a bunch of strong fighters/bruisers. Straight tanks like Sion (and sej too I assume) don't handle well against bruiser comps. Bruisers usually have the sustained DPS to kill tanks in the mid game, and ignore them late game.

I think Sion and Sej might have been slightly overnerfed in the fall-out of the cinderhulk patch. They both saw a number of direct kit nerfs, as well as nerfs to a bunch of their favorite items (randuins, frozen heart, cinderhulk itself obviously).

That being said, I think it would be prudent to see how the pre-season changes pan out before really tackling tanks. I personally don't know what meta comps will look like in Season 6. If bruisers end up being boxed out by ADCs, strong initiation tanks like Sej and Sion might come back into the meta. And IMO Sion at least is still one of the stronger initiation tanks in the game. Teams just aren't looking for what he brings to the table.

Spoofghoul2 votes

[deleted]

Painted Celt3 votes

While it's true that Sion doesn't synergize perfectly with Cinderhulk, it is still the item most often used by him when jungling. Sion gets a lot of benefit from the multiplier on the health items he builds. By the way, I never actually mentioned Sion's base stats, so I don't see what you are trying to argue against. I realize that Sion has low base stats and requires farming. Buffing Immolate and allowing jungle Sion to clear more effectively helps him get the farm he needs.

I don't see much reason to argue about whether I sincerely care about Sion or am just a fair-weather fan... I did indeed play almost solely Sion from S2 up until the rework. In all of the years that I have played league, Sion and Mordekaiser are the only champions that I purchased skins for with actual money... While I play those champions less since their reworks (which technically made them stronger), I still care about the champions and I still play Sion though I've entirely quit playing Mordekaiser lately despite previously enjoying him.

I mean... If you really want to be like that, I can provide proof. But there was really no reason to accuse me of lying... Here is from right before the rework... My match history looks pretty much the same all the way back to when the current match history system was initially added by Riot... http://i.imgur.com/0ilpSvY.jpg As you can see, I primarily played Sion with a smaller amount of Mordekaiser. Ignore the few games as support Ashe since that was something I had just been experimenting with at the time...

Crett5 votes

sion's W does work with cinderhulk, don't know where you got that

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Cinderhulk junglers still dominate the pro scene (Gragas and Rek'sai especially), and Amumu and Skarner are in the top 6 win rate junglers, while building cinderhulk.

Buffing individual champions, especially the ones who don't see pro play, is a better solution than buffing the most used jungle item in pro play, and the champions who win quite well with it right now.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

But that is a small amount of the actual champions that buy the item and NEED the item to function well. Rek'sai can easily do well with Warrior and will always be dominant in the pro-scene due to how good her passive is and her very easy knock up. I mean look at how many nerfs she has gotten and she is still picked for a reason. Gragas is typically picked for his great engage/peel so adding something to Cinderhulk will not change him too much since they have already lowered his damage immensely anyway.

The item is not the reason most of these champions are picked/win games. It is their kits (skarner/amumu have good pick potential/wombo combo potential respectively) so buffing an item will not throw them over the edge to the extent that it will potentially make the other 25-30+ cinderhulk junglers better and more viable options.

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Bumporinoes

PapaGreg212 votes

I am sure that Riot knows these champs are weak. After playing this game for years, most of us should know by now that they do not want to make every champion evenly balanced, but instead they want to rotate who is on the top to prevent the game from being stale. Instead of asking for particular champions or items to be nerfed or buffed, you should be asking them to change their mindset so that all champions can consistently be played on an equal playing field throughout the year instead of the rotating strength cycles.

Baculus2 votes

{quoted}

I am sure that Riot knows these champs are weak. After playing this game for years, most of us should know by now that they do not want to make every champion evenly balanced, but instead they want to rotate who is on the top to prevent the game from being stale. Instead of asking for particular champions or items to be nerfed or buffed, you should be asking them to change their mindset so that all champions can consistently be played on an equal playing field throughout the year instead of the rotating strength cycles.

They just don't care. Reminder that they buffed Zed and Lee Sin only a few patches ago, again.

PapaGreg212 votes

{quoted}

They just don't care. Reminder that they buffed Zed and Lee Sin only a few patches ago, again.

I don't think it is that they don't care but rather they are doing it to help people maintain interest in a 5 year old game. Their strategy is clearly to make newly released champions strong to get people interested in (buying) playing them and to keep rotating older champs to the top of the overpowered ladder so that champs like Katarina aren't overwhelmingly picked/banned for years in a row making the game stale. Unfortunately, it's starting to be a somewhat frustrating model for people that have spent YEARS practicing a certain champion only to see them become somewhat handicapped against overpowered opponents. This is especially true for fans of champions like Sejuani that are little more than fodder for gold against enemies like Lee Sin until she can build roughly 3 items.

The Patriachy2 votes

With the new last whisper (40% bonus armor penetration) I imagine armor stacking is a really bad idea. The new mastery has higher armor penetration as well (9%).

With that in mind the only solution for tanks is to health stack. Therefore health stackers might make a comeback in season 6.

One thing that might happen is adcs/mages being played in every role in season 6. There are plenty of adcs who can top lane and jungle. In season 5 you could just armor stack vs a comp like that. That might not be so effective in season 6.

Riot will definitely need to get on top of this problem fasr if this happens which might involve cinderhulk buffs. The player base will hemorrhage if melee champions are unplayable.

magic pole2 votes

i don't know how the numbers pan out, but shouldn't sunfire always do more damage? Otherwise, given it's low armor and HP rating (relative to other armor/hp items), there wouldn't be an incentive to buy it. Especially considering the 15% bonus HP of cinder hulk?

However, it sounds nice that towards a 6 item build, if your items all have HP, at 6 items cinderhulk might near or reach the damage of sunfire?

idk on paper the damage doesn't seem great, but even now cinder hulk damage for me is noticeable, and the health bonus is quite nice; but i agree, it could stand to be buffed (only to 1 of these attributes imo).

Painted Celt3 votes

Good questions. Here is a side-by-side comparison of a tank VS tank fight using these items.

Here is an earlygame comparison, where the tanks have 1500 base health and no other items: http://i.imgur.com/UHMGK13.jpg

Here is a lategame comparison, where the tanks have 1800 base health and 3200 bonus health from other sources: http://i.imgur.com/NUWafUB.jpg

These calculations consider Cinderhulk's ramp-up to be 3 seconds, beginning after the first proc. That means 1% + 14 damage at second #1 and 1.5% + 21 damage at second #4 and after. These numbers are only factoring in the damage from Immolate, so the tanks are just AFK next to eachother in this hypothetical scenario.

The lategame comparison is pretty exaggerated in Cinderhulk's favor, since that's 4 Warmog's for 3,200 bonus health. That gives the Cinderhulk tank 4.790 health once you throw in the +400 from Cinderhulk itself and the +15% Bonus Health. Obviously, this is pretty crazy health stacking and not truly realistic in a regular game, but it makes an interesting case comparison regardless. It's also worth noting that 10 seconds is a really long fight in melee range, and a shorter fight would have Cinderhulk fully ramped up for a lower percentage of the time.

Anyhow, as you can see, the Sunfire Cape does indeed deal more damage in both cases. In the extreme lategame scenario, the Cinderhulk "wins" the fight by having more remaining health after 10 seconds despite dealing less damage. This is because the Cinderhulk tank has more starting health in that fight. In the earlygame fight, the Sunfire Cape wins pretty decisively since the Cinderhulk tank hasn't picked up bonus health yet.

Also worth noting that Sunfire Cape provides armor, though that doesn't affect these calculations since they deal magic damage. If the two tanks were autoattacking eachother, especially with Titanic Hydras, that armor would probably ensure that the Sunfire Cape wins.

I think that it's clear that Sunfire Cape is a better powerspike item early/mid-game than Cinderhulk. The two items are fairly evenly matched lategame in Tank VS Tank fights, though I think that Sunfire would still win out in such a fight due to the armor. Cinderhulk's bigger health pool would add more damage to Titanic Hydra though. Lategame, it's possible for Cinderhulk to achieve more damage VS squishy champions than Sunfire, but the outputs are close. Also, the squishiest champions (marksmen) would be very difficult to stick to in melee range for the entire Cinderhulk ramp-up anyways. So, in general, Sunfire Cape does do more damage than Cinderhulk while providing bonus armor in addition. However, I don't think either item would overshadow the other, since Cinderhulk provides jungling bonuses and all junglers require a jungler item anyways.

Gorgannan1 votes

Mmmmmmm. Cinderhulk Olaf is very strong, and doesn't need buffs.

I don't think Cinderhulk needs buffs. I really do think it's a problem with Sion and Sej.

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