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Can Manamune please be buffed?

Painted Celt··84 votes·6,675 views

item 3004 Manamune has been severely left behind by somewhat recent changes. It was left out of the AD item revamp and passed over when item 3003 Archangel's Staff was made more slot efficient. Buffing Manamune will help several of the least popular and most underpowered champions in the game. It will also help provide consistent itemization options since it is currently inferior to its sister item, Archangel Staff.

Below are lists of the champions most frequently building Muramana/Manamune. item 3042 Muramana: http://i.imgur.com/rL67zFt.jpg

item 3004 Manamune: http://i.imgur.com/8GE8GHX.jpg

As you can see above, Manamune/Muramana is currently only being built by 5 out of 128 champions in the game. The number of occurrences after Urgot Urgot and Varus Varus fall off to insignificant numbers. Meta-breaking AD Malzahar and AD Blitzcrank builds make up most of the remaining occurences, with a few remaining Kog'Maws building it.

Urgot Urgot, Varus Varus, and KogMaw Kog'Maw are all within the bottom 5 least popular marksmen, even when including their play rate in other lanes/roles (AP Varus, AP Kog'maw, Bruiser Urgot, etc.).

Urgot Urgot and Yorick Yorick are the two least popular champions in the game, and have under 50% winrates despite typically only being played by experienced players due to their small playerbase.

Champions like Pantheon Pantheon and Khazix Kha'Zix really want what is offered by this item, but aren't building it often because of how weak it is in its current state. A fully stacked Muramana is harder to obtain than most alternative items, yet doesn't currently give much of a power spike due to its poor base AD compared to other AD items.

I think this item can be safely buffed for an easy victory for the Riot balance team. Here are some suggested changes:

item 3004 item 1037 Pickaxe replaced by item 1038 B. F. Sword in recipe. Combine Cost 775 ⇒ 1050 (Total Cost 2400 ⇒ 3100; This is the same total cost as Archangel's Staff) AD 25 ⇒ 50 Base Mana Regen 25% ⇒ 50% Mana Charge: Grants 4 ⇒ 6 maximum Mana (max +750 Mana) for each basic attack, spell cast, and Mana expenditure (occurs up to 2 times every 8 seconds). Grants 1 maximum Mana every 8 seconds.

item 3042 AD 25 ⇒ 50 Base Mana Regen 25% ⇒ 50%

Most of these changes help make Manamune more consistent as the AD equivalent of Archangel's Staff. I feel that Archangel's Staff was greatly improved when its recipe was updated and it became a more slot efficient item. I'd like the same treatment for Manamune.

With the AD item revamp, B.F. Sword became cheaper, making it a more convenient item to build early on. I feel this would not homogenize item 3004 Manamune with item 3508 Essence Reaver since the AD item revamp helped distinguish Essence Reaver. Essence Reaver would remain the CDR item for crit users, while Manamune would be distinguished by its early mana Tear of the Goddess build path, Awe passive, and Muramana toggle effect. This would also bring the number of B.F. Sword items (item 3004 item 3031 item 3072 item 3508) closer in line with the number of Needlessly Large Rod items (item 3003 item 3089 item 3116 item 3285 item 3157).

The changes to the base mana regen and flat AD are to match Archangel's Staff and to compensate for the increased build cost. Increasing AD to 50 would make item 3004 Manamune's base AD roughly 77% of the base AD of item 3508 or item 3031. For comparison, item 3003 Archangel's Staff provides 80 base AP, which is exactly 80% of the base AP provided by item 3285, item 3157, or item 3116. If Manamune were buffed to 55 base AD, that would be a little under 85% of the base AD of item 3508 or item 3031.

The buff to stacking rate from 4 to 6 mana is to help item 3004 Manamune users stack up a little easier. item 3003 Archangel's Staff gains 8 mana per expenditure, and while Manamune also gains stacks for autoattacks, both items are limited to 2 stack gains per 8 seconds. This means that even with this buff, Manamune would still have a lower maximum mana gain per 8 seconds (12 vs 16).

The inclusion of item 3070 Tear of the Goddess's passive +1 mana stack per 8 seconds in the upgraded items would also be very helpful. It is fairly rare for an item to lose this kind of functionality when upgraded, and is somewhat annoying. Tear of the Goddess is actually able to gain a higher amount of mana than Manamune per 8 seconds (9 vs 8), which is somewhat counter-intuitive since players expect upgraded items to be completely superior to their components. This specific change could also be applied to Archangel's Staff, which would also help mana hungry mages that build Archangel's and are struggling in mid lane, such as Karthus and Cassiopeia.

Thanks for reading! Please comment and participate in the poll. If you agree that Manamune should be buffed, please upvote the thread for visibility. If you would like Manamune to be buffed but in a different way than I suggested, feel free to post your own idea(s) here.

82 Comments

ZephyrDrake15 votes

the item needs two core changes, first it needs a mana regen and then it needs to have it's damage be consistent and not be based on the amount of mana it consumes. Just make it deal 2% of your max mana or something similar instead of 3% of your current mana that just makes it very inconsistent in terms of damage and the 25% mana regen doesn't help at all

Rebonack9 votes

{quoted}

the item needs two core changes, first it needs a mana regen and then it needs to have it's damage be consistent and not be based on the amount of mana it consumes. Just make it deal 2% of your max mana or something similar instead of 3% of your current mana that just makes it very inconsistent in terms of damage and the 25% mana regen doesn't help at all

That would be a giant nerf.

Currently it consumes 3% of your current mana OnHit and deals twice the mana consumed as physical damage.

Anywho, instead of Tear and a BF Sword have it build out of Tear, Dirk, and a Pickaxe. Gaining armor pen would be far more valuable than just more raw AD.

ZephyrDrake9 votes

{quoted}

That would be a giant nerf.

Currently it consumes 3% of your current mana OnHit and deals twice the mana consumed as physical damage.

Anywho, instead of Tear and a BF Sword have it build out of Tear, Dirk, and a Pickaxe. Gaining armor pen would be far more valuable than just more raw AD.

the item consumes 3% of your CURRENT mana and then deals twice that amount as damage, it makes it very inconsistent since every single auto or single target ability you do is just going to deal less and less damage as your mana pool diminishes. If it dealt damage based of your max mana pool (whether it comsumes current or max mana i could care less that would be numbers tuning) it could be reliable damage and not "sometimes i'll deal 50 extra damage and sometimes i'll deal 30 and other times i'll deal 76" type of thing it has going right now

Pierce The Veal4 votes

{quoted}

the item consumes 3% of your CURRENT mana and then deals twice that amount as damage, it makes it very inconsistent since every single auto or single target ability you do is just going to deal less and less damage as your mana pool diminishes. If it dealt damage based of your max mana pool (whether it comsumes current or max mana i could care less that would be numbers tuning) it could be reliable damage and not "sometimes i'll deal 50 extra damage and sometimes i'll deal 30 and other times i'll deal 76" type of thing it has going right now

On average it deals 3% of your maximum mana as damage, assuming you aren't regaining any mana and are using it all up using only autos. As such, its current mana damage is way better than 2% max mana as damage. Especially since if you only use down to 75% mana you'll have dealt 5.25% of your maximum mana as damage on average. In short, your proposal is not neearly as powerful as the current "inconsistent damage." You suggestion would make it consistent-ly deal less damage.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

{quoted}

On average it deals 3% of your maximum mana as damage, assuming you aren't regaining any mana and are using it all up using only autos. As such, its current mana damage is way better than 2% max mana as damage. Especially since if you only use down to 75% mana you'll have dealt 5.25% of your maximum mana as damage on average. In short, your proposal is not neearly as powerful as the current "inconsistent damage." You suggestion would make it consistent-ly deal less damage.

no, on average is not dealing anywhere near that much damage. It might deal decent damage the first few times you use it and ONLY if you for whatever reason are still at full mana which is not going to be the case on most cases. The item currently deals damage all over the place and if 2~3% max mana damage is too little it can be buffed to deal somewhat more damage but it's not going to go anywhere higher than 5% max mana. The item needs a consistent damage boost and not a "sometimes I'll deal X, other times i'll deal Y but maybe i'll deal Z!"

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

no, on average is not dealing anywhere near that much damage. It might deal decent damage the first few times you use it and ONLY if you for whatever reason are still at full mana which is not going to be the case on most cases. The item currently deals damage all over the place and if 2~3% max mana damage is too little it can be buffed to deal somewhat more damage but it's not going to go anywhere higher than 5% max mana. The item needs a consistent damage boost and not a "sometimes I'll deal X, other times i'll deal Y but maybe i'll deal Z!"

I'm not sure why it "needs" a consistent damage boost. Botrk deals less damage over time. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure why it "needs" a consistent damage boost. Botrk deals less damage over time. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

because BotRK doesn't drain your mana or health while it deals it's damage and it's meant to deal with tanks AND it has a decent enough active. You cannot even begin to compare BotRK with Muramana which is meant to increase your damage but all it does in the end is reduce it since you are using precious mana you could be using for your skills for some very pitiful amount of damage that is simply put not worth in the end. You run out of mana way faster with it despite you having an extra 1k mana pool to work with, you might as well build some other random AD item with armor pen and i bet you will do more damage with them than with muramana and still have mana to do stuff.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

because BotRK doesn't drain your mana or health while it deals it's damage and it's meant to deal with tanks AND it has a decent enough active. You cannot even begin to compare BotRK with Muramana which is meant to increase your damage but all it does in the end is reduce it since you are using precious mana you could be using for your skills for some very pitiful amount of damage that is simply put not worth in the end. You run out of mana way faster with it despite you having an extra 1k mana pool to work with, you might as well build some other random AD item with armor pen and i bet you will do more damage with them than with muramana and still have mana to do stuff.

I used to build muramana and Kha'zix every time because that proc adds more damage than almost any other AD item. The only real problem is the overall AD it gives is on the low side and it takes too long to stack.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

I used to build muramana and Kha'zix every time because that proc adds more damage than almost any other AD item. The only real problem is the overall AD it gives is on the low side and it takes too long to stack.

good to know you used to build an item that he does not need ion the slightest. Good to know you like gimping yourself with terrible items on champions that don't even need the mana or anything. If anything it shows that Kha was either that broken when you used to buy it or that AD itemization was that terrible to begin with. As of now? it has way, way more issues than simply not giving enough AD or taking too long to stack sorry but the issues are way bigger than that

Sire Hippington1 votes

I did and still complain about that(same with liandry's) I just don't like doing less damage the longer a fight goes.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4nXhtkd,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-27T18:51:00.803+0000)

  1. i did and still complain about that(same with liandry's) I just don't like doing less damage the longer a fight goes.

That's a good inherent weakness in an item.

I don't like it either, but it effectively caps it.

Sire Hippington1 votes

One could change BotrK to 3% max-health, which would in average be the same damage thus the change should be power neutral.

I don't see any real value that comes from %current items, especially if they serve some specific other purposes aswell.

On champion kits, i jhave no problem if it supports the gamplay identity. Like elise wearing you down in human form and then finishing off as spider, Or Kindret useing the time given by her ult to take enemies as low as she is and kinda prepering the field for her team to cleanup(though tematically, beeing the cleanup her self would be kinda more fitting^^)

On items however, i don't see that value, unless they are nich items that specifically seve the purpose of 'oftening up targets' as their main feat.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4nXhtkd,comment-id=000000000001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-27T20:32:11.716+0000)

One could change BotrK to 3% max-health, which would in average be the same damage thus the change should be power neutral.

I don't see any real value that comes from %current items, especially if they serve some specific other purposes aswell.

On champion kits, i jhave no problem if it supports the gamplay identity. Like elise wearing you down in humen form and then finishing off as spider, Or Kindret useing the time given by her ult to take enemies as low as she is and kinda prepering the field for her team to cleanup(though tematically, beeing the cleanup her self would be kinda more fitting^^)

On items however, i don't see that value, unless they are nich items that specifically seve the purpose of 'oftening up targets' as their main feat.

Using 6% current health damage instead of 3% max health damage actually gives MORE dps. It rewards having heavy damage on autos, as if your first auto deals 1000 damage (including botrk) and the second hit deals like 960 damage (the target is assumed to have 2000 hp), then the enemy champion will basically have been dealt MORE damage than expected, as over those two hits the average %health damage was actually 4.5%. Essentially it is exactly what you said, a softening up mechanic that allows you to eventually kill a foe with your own damage.

The balance here comes from dealing more damage to high health targets. In essence, the botrk itself or liandries itself is not a champion killer. The items' usages would change significantly if they were able to kill champions on their own.

Also RIP madred's bloodrazor

Sire Hippington1 votes

that would all be nice and fine if those items were used with the purpose of softening up targets.

BotrK is ~50% of the time used simply because it's the only item that gives AS and Lifesteal. ~30% of the time, it is built because it offers %hp damage(no matter wether max, current or missing) and they have to deal with someone who stacks hp. ~20% of the time it is picked for the active that improves dueling, kiteing and chaseing. *estimated values

Be honest, how often did you pick up BotrK and though: 'i want to get people to ~50%hp fast and then leave it to others to finish them off, so i take the %current health item'? Or: 'I have execute mechaniics, so dropping them fast to ~50% might be nice'?

And most of all, how often wouldn't you use BotrK if it was %missing or max insteat of current???

If doing CURRENT-health actually was the unique selling point of an item, i wouldn't have much problems with it. But as it is now, it is just a mnor factor, most people couldn't care less wether it is current, missing or max health as long as the raw power is the same.

Also RIP madred's bloodrazor

He shall be remebert together with his fallen brothers...[zombie-nunu-tears]

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4nXhtkd,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-27T21:17:40.200+0000)

that would all be nice and fine if those items were used with the purpose of softening up targets.

BotrK is ~50% of the time used simply because it's the only item that gives AS and Lifesteal. ~30% of the time, it is built because it offers %hp damage(no matter wether max, current or missing) and they have to deal with someone who stacks hp. ~20% of the time it is picked for the active that improves dueling, kiteing and chaseing. *estimated values

Be honest, how often did you pick up BotrK and though: 'i want to get people to ~50%hp fast and then leave it to others to finish them off, so i take the %current health item'? Or: 'I have execute mechaniics, so dropping them fast to ~50% might be nice'?

And most of all, how often wouldn't you use BotrK if it was %missing or max insteat of current???

If doing CURRENT-health actually was the unique selling point of an item, i wouldn't have much problems with it. But as it is now, it is just a mnor factor, most people couldn't care less wether it is current, missing or max health as long as the raw power is the same.

You do bring up a good point.

As a proponent of the more AD+ attack speed items movement (probably one of the few), I have to agree that botrk is used to fill up multiple different item types when in reality people want 2-3 different specialized items.

Sire Hippington1 votes

well, the pruposed value would be a nerf, but the idea of haveing it base on max mana rather than current is pretty nice.

originary911 votes

{quoted}

That would be a giant nerf.

Currently it consumes 3% of your current mana OnHit and deals twice the mana consumed as physical damage.

Anywho, instead of Tear and a BF Sword have it build out of Tear, Dirk, and a Pickaxe. Gaining armor pen would be far more valuable than just more raw AD.

Gain Armour Penetration equal to 1% of your max Mana. That would be cool.

Ralanr1 votes

Pantheon would fall in love with that.

Painted Celt2 votes

Hm. The additional +25% mana regen (50% total) is mainly to make it consistent with Archangel's Staff, but it would definitely be of some help. I am personally okay with Manamune being more of a flat mana pool item than a full mana sustain item. Glad to see other opinions though.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Painted Celt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4nXhtkd,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-12-26T23:41:35.924+0000)

Hm. The additional +25% mana regen (50% total) is mainly to make it consistent with Archangel's Staff, but it would definitely be of some help. I am personally okay with Manamune being more of a flat mana pool item than a full mana sustain item. Glad to see other opinions though.

well the thing is it fails at that, the extra 1k mana you get is drained so fast that you just have to wonder why even bother having a bigger mana pool? and 50% mana regen isn't going to make it a mana sustain item, it would make it so you actually have some mana to even use the item in the first place

Cosnirak4 votes

Well researched and thought out (at least for these boards :p ). Not sure it's the perfect solution but I can't see anything wrong with it at the very least. I approve.

Spoofghoul4 votes

Voted yes but not as suggested.

I agree with all your changes.

I would also like to see the active changed into somthing different.

Right now everyone who wants manamune would buy it for the mana because they are manahungry otherwise you could just as easily buy any other ad item. But the active drains your mana so fast its not even funny. To make it more frustrating the active becomes weaker and weaker when your mana pool is depleting. And last, the active is only usefull on champions who utilize auto attacks or single target spells for the majority of their damage output.

Ralanr2 votes

It'd be great on Pantheon if it wasn't a late game item or he wasn't the most extreme early game champion around.

Painted Celt2 votes

I think that if Manamune were buffed, it could become a viable option for Pantheon again. I remember it being core for top lane Pantheon in previous years. Tear of the Goddess helps expand his mana pool so that he can poke more with his spears. Even at 3,100g, it would cost a little less than some of the items Pantheon likes, such as item 3812 item 3074 item 3071item 3156. I'm not saying it would be overpowered on him, but it could be a good option and I remember it being considered a viable option in the past.

Ralanr3 votes

I'd like it to be a good option for him.

Rebonack2 votes

I almost wonder if Manamune would be better of with item 3010 instead of item 3070 as its mana component. Then just have it gain mana over time ala Rod of Ages. Keep the Mana -> AD component and the toggle.

Quepha2 votes

It's weird that Riot seems to not like this item. Any time it became popular on a champ it seemed like they hit it with a nerf (Double tear Ryze, Jayce, Blue Ez) even though the item seems to have a pretty clear and real tradeoff of spending a bunch of money in the early game for something that's JUST mana.

GetMariahCarried2 votes

What? No item 3043 item 3508 combos? Ya know the latter gives PERCENT mana returns. The perma-capped muramana procs... THE PERMA-CAPPED PROCS!

Okay, yeah, it's a terrible idea. BUT IT STILL SOUNDS AWESOME.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

What? No item 3043 item 3508 combos? Ya know the latter gives PERCENT mana returns. The perma-capped muramana procs... THE PERMA-CAPPED PROCS!

Okay, yeah, it's a terrible idea. BUT IT STILL SOUNDS AWESOME.

i think after you get one. you dont really need to worry about mana issues. no need to buy both

junglerboy162 votes

Actually, that's the biggest flaw of item 3042: Once you complete it, it makes your mana issues worse.

GetMariahCarried1 votes

That's why I point out the combo. You use 3 percent of your current mana while muramana's toggled, which means you get diminishing damage returns. UNLESS, you buy essence reaver, and max crit, thus gaining 3 percent of your maximum mana on-hit.

Ergo, PERMA-CAPPED MURAMANA PROCS.

My next KogMaw test. I take no responsibility when this plan explodes in my face (get it? cause... cause he expl... eeehhh forget it...)

item 3043 item 3085 item 3508 item 3094 item 3031 item 3153

P.S. "It makes your mana issues worse." Well, not really, just toggle it off until a teamfight... or buy essence reaver, max crit, and spam "haters gonna hate" in all-chat.

Daxterr2 votes

{quoted}

That's why I point out the combo. You use 3 percent of your current mana while muramana's toggled, which means you get diminishing damage returns. UNLESS, you buy essence reaver, and max crit, thus gaining 3 percent of your maximum mana on-hit.

Ergo, PERMA-CAPPED MURAMANA PROCS.

My next KogMaw test. I take no responsibility when this plan explodes in my face (get it? cause... cause he expl... eeehhh forget it...)

item 3043 item 3085 item 3508 item 3094 item 3031 item 3153

P.S. "It makes your mana issues worse." Well, not really, just toggle it off until a teamfight... or buy essence reaver, max crit, and spam "haters gonna hate" in all-chat.

did you get that from me? I posted that exact same build in a kog maw discussion =)

Krinu2 votes

Good idea.

The only thing I'd disagree with is the stack change - instead of making it potentially faster to stack by increasing the stack count, I would make the number of "charges" one could have at once be higher. The problem most people have with the stack rate isn't the actual rate-of-return, but rather how you need a valid target to trigger the effect. By allowing more stacks to be stored, you decrease the wasted stacks without allowing high-sustain champions (or people paired with sustain supports) from stacking it too quickly. For example:

Mana Charge: Grants 4 maximum Mana (max +750 Mana) for each basic attack, spell cast, and Mana expenditure (occurs up to 5 times every 20 seconds).

Painted Celt2 votes

{quoted}

Mana Charge: Grants 4 maximum Mana (max +750 Mana) for each basic attack, spell cast, and Mana expenditure (occurs up to 5 times every 20 seconds).

That's a good thought, and I could imagine something like that working. Just a couple questions and concerns:

  1. Would Archangel's Staff receive the same QOL change or be left as-is?

  2. Aren't those numbers still a bit low compared to Archangel's Staff? Archangel's Staff would still produce up to twice as many stacks over the full 20 seconds. Is there really a reason that Archangel's Staff needs to be twice as fast to charge? Some mages have spells that are even more convenient for charging than autoattacks, such as Singed's poison, Anivia's ult, and Karthus' Q + E.

UrPalAl1 votes

The only champion (that's not getting reworked (srry urgod)) that NEEDS to build Manamune every single game is Jayce. So if any buffs come to Manamune, it's going to be because of Jayce, which is exactly what's probably going to happen:

When asked if they have any plans to look at Jayce following the 5.22 patch, Meddler noted:

"Yeah, we think we'll need to do something for Jayce early next year. Itemization changes in 5.22 seem to have hit him pretty hard. Might look at Manamune and/or Muramana buffs, still figuring out which lever's best to use (is it a lack of power on kit or a lack of support from other systems)."
Painted Celt1 votes

I'm glad to hear that they are looking into buffing the item. It will be good for Jayce players, and it could become viable on champs like Khazix Pantheon Varus Corki KogMaw Gangplank Illaoi if the buffs are decent.

I realize that champions like Urgot and Yorick are unlikely to get individual attention, but Yorick is in a worse situation than usual at the moment. It's mainly just a shame that this item is in such a state that it is being used by such a tiny number of champs that its balance is centered around just Jayce. If this item were buffed to a healthy spot, it could definitely become core on Khazix Kha'Zix and Pantheon Pantheon at the very least.

MonarchOfCool1 votes

Yorick is doing terrible right now. He's the champion I see least of them all, and he's not THAT bad, he's just... Not good enough to be played regularly. Urgot is actually kinda' common, and just like Jayce, I don't see another viable core item for Urgot besides Black Cleaver, and Black Cleaver first item just sounds awful on any Mid-Bot Marksman champion. Sure, Darius, Garen, Illaoi, and new Poppy COULD build it first, but there are better build paths, like full tank, or Tri-Force, then full tank, for Poppy and Illaoi. Besides, they aren't Marksmen, and I hope people don't regularly play them Mid and Bot. Manamune does need a buff, and that is what will bring Yorick, Urgot, and Jayce back to being good picks.

UrPalAl1 votes

Even though it has practically become a staple for Jayce, the changes they make are sure to benefit everyone, a buff is a buff. Right now I'm just interested to see what they do.

LoL Ergo Urgot1 votes

[deleted]

UrPalAl1 votes

Yeah I know, I love urgod too (i got dat crabgawd), but I'm just saying considering they've been keeping Urgot weak on purpose since his release, they probably wouldn't make too many item changes based on him, especially since they seem to hate his poke a lot.

RottedApples1 votes

The data shown above seems pretty bad. There are several champions that don't regularly build the item (not including off meta stuff like AD malz where it is a must buy) and a few have extreme outliers as their %'s (like the 0% win rates and 100% win rates)

Makes me wonder if the data is from a pool that is too small to consider valid.

That could also be due to the state of manamune however and I do think the item needs a little bit of love. I remember the days when kha'zix used to buy manamune sometimes, i wouldn't mind going back to those days. Now i only buy it on jayce or yorick(whom i never play) and I don't even bother with it on ezreal.

Painted Celt2 votes

The source is lolking, which I believe uses one of the largest data sets. It is definitely one of the most popular league statistic sites.

You are correct that some of the champions showing up in the chart don't regularly build Manamune. That is the point that I was showing. The item is being built so rarely right now that the popularity falls to insignificant numbers after the first 5-6 champions listed.

The chart is trying to show the "top 15 users" of Manamune, but there are only 5-6 champions in the game actually using it right now. I wanted to show why the data is so crazy. There aren't enough champions building the item in the game for the site to even create a proper chart. It goes to show how of a spot Manamune is in right now.

I too wish that the item was strong enough to be attractive for the likes of Kha'Zix again. I also agree that despite Ezreal representing the most popular usage of Manamune, it isn't even actually worthwhile on him in its current state. AD Ezreal's most frequent and highest winrate build is item 3508 item 3006 item 3078 item 3031 item 3036 item 3072. It's really sad that Manamune's top user is better off without the item. This item really needs love.

BastionKross1 votes

The trouble with buffing the item is that despite Varus Yorick Urgot needing a shot in the arm is that you'd also be heavily buffing both Ezreal and Jayce as well; and they seem to be in a comparatively good place balance-wise at the moment. If the AD tear path was buffed, those two would probably have to be nerfed as a result. Also, giving Pantheon an item that solves his mana issues and grants him AD is a great way to break him. That's the reason why item 3508 doesn't actually give mana sustain until after it's all completed; champs like Panth and Jayce would poke for days in lane. Melee champs would have no hope.

As for the problems with the item itself. That active is stupid. Champs that buy the item have mana problems, and then the active drains mana. The item defeats it's own purpose. You drain your mana and now you can't use abilities and a lot of the damage on your autos vanishes at the same time. Also, the bonus damage from the active goes by current mana, so the damage fluctuates wildly. If it dealt a certain amount, like scaling with max mana, then you'd have a more consistent powerspike and thus a better item.

aperson11 votes

Woah, don't go overboard with the +AD change. I think you're REALLY underestimating how good Awe is. Manamune already gives a high amount of AD - at 2000 mana, which is a little over how much you'll have when you finish stacking it, it gives 65 AD - which is on par with IE/ER. If you increase its AD by 25 (!!) it easily becomes the highest AD item in the game and rushed by every AD caster. I agree it should stack faster but the Pickaxe in the recipe and the base AD on the item are both fine and totally appropriate.

Painted Celt1 votes

I don't think that I am underestimating the passive. It's AP equivalent, item 3003 Archangel's Staff, is already the highest AP providing item in the game with the right build: item 3041 item 3089 item 3040 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027. According to the League of Legends wikia, Cassiopeia can obtain the maximum finite (as in excluding Veigar and Thresh's infinite scaling) AP with that build, her passive maxed, and all possible buffs at a total of 2528 AP. A level 18 Kassadin Kassadin with item 3040 and no other items gets 156 AP from it due to its 80 base AP + passive with his 2,536.6 (1,000 from Seraph's) mana pool.

There are lots of reasons why that doesn't end up being as good as it looks on paper and why not all mages rush Archangel's. The same would be true with an equivalently powerful Manamune.

In the original post, I actually suggested a slightly lower AD than it would require to be 100% equivalent to Archangel's base stats. To be 100% equivalent, it would actually require 52 base AD in stead of 50. So, at 50 AD, it would really be a marginally worse stat stick than Archangel's is. Also, most mages have higher base mana pools than AD casters and have an easier time itemizing additional mana (item 3027), so Archangel's is actually even stronger as a stat stick than the numbers themselves suggest. I personally think that is fine since I consider the Muramana toggle somewhat more valuable than Seraph's mana shield. I really think that 50 AD is a balanced number all things considered.

aperson11 votes

You're not considering several things:

  • The effectiveness of AP is directly tied to Mana expenditure. Therefore, it makes sense that an AP item with a %current Mana active needs have better stats gold-wise than an AD item with a %current Mana active, because users of the AP mana item tend to have less mana at any given moment.
  • Seraph's active is defensive; Muramana's is offensive. Since both are built on characters who are looking to BE offensive, primarily, Muramana's holds much greater value as a big powerspike reward for completion of the item. This makes its active much more powerful even if numbers-wise the two seem similar; as a result, it makes sense Muramana's stats are worse gold-wise.
  • Attack Speed as a multiplier for AD is easier to acquire than CDR as a multiplier for AP. Most AD champions who even build AS at all only build 1 AS item + Berserker Greaves, if that. The only champs who build more usually do so because their kit has powerful on-hit effects, and those champions typically aren't as interested in stacking AD (= this item doesn't factor in their purchase decisions). Meanwhile mages have to commit at least 2 item slots to get enough CDR to create a significant multiplier, usually more, and their 20% CDR options also focus on mana regen which has low-synergy with Seraph's Insight passive.
  • Maximum attainable stat analysis is unrealistic at best. This should be obvious, but very few games make it to level 18, 6 items. Even fewer have Seraph's + triple-stacked RoA. By the time most games end, the difference in gold value between the two items is far less exaggerated.
  • AD itemization is not meant to directly parallel AP itemization and therefore should not be directly compared to AP itemization. This is the big one. Not only would this make itemization extremely bland, they are two fundamentally different stats that deserve different tools. Just because Manamune builds from Tear and Seraph's builds from Tear doesn't mean the two should be balanced against each other. Instead of comparing it to AP items which have a completely different "audience" to AD items, try comparing Manamune to other items its users might reasonably buy. If Manamune is weak, what are people preferring to buy over it? How can Manamune distinguish itself from those items, or how can its numbers be changed to play up its fantasy? I don't think Manamune's fantasy is "highest AD item in the game," so why should we try to emphasize that about it? This is my opinion, but the "stacking power" theme and the "big payoff" theme of the item both seem like sound places to buff Manamune and make it more attractive than, say, Youmuu's.
Llanite1 votes

If they buffed a niche item, there's only 2 outcomes.

+It's reworked to become a standard item which everyone can use. +It gets a big buff to make it attractive to everyone, which then becomes seriously OP on some niche users, then nerfed back to oblivion.

Painted Celt2 votes

I think there is a third possibility which would result from a proper numbers buff:

+It gets a sizable buff to make it attractive to its entire intended class, non-crit AD mana users. Its currently severely underpowered niche users temporarily rise 1-5% winrate. Assuming there is no unnecessary knee-jerk nerf, this results in an increase in popularity by 1-3%, driving their winrate back down by 1-3% as inexperienced players pick up the champions. After a few months, winrates/popularity stabilize at a totally reasonable (and still somewhat underpowered) level of ~2% popularity and ~49% winrate for Yorick Urgot instead of the current 0.7% popularity and 47% winrate.

The only niche users that could be call for concern are Jayce and Ezreal. Ezreal is currently having much more success with item 3508 anyways. Jayce is currently being considered for buffs according to another poster in this thread:

When asked if they have any plans to look at Jayce following the 5.22 patch, Meddler noted:

"Yeah, we think we'll need to do something for Jayce early next year. Itemization changes in 5.22 seem to have hit him pretty hard. Might look at Manamune and/or Muramana buffs, still figuring out which lever's best to use (is it a lack of power on kit or a lack of support from other systems)."

Considering all of this, I think that it is pretty safe for Manamune to be buffed. If Ezreal or Jayce were overbuffed, they could be slightly directly nerfed in compensation, still resulting in a net buff overall. Champions like Khazix Kha'Zix would gain a new viable itemization option but would be unlikely to oversynergize with it.

SolusInCadere1 votes

I dislike having to say "no Manamune is perfect" because that is false. But it does not need buffs. Too few champions utilize it, and those that do arguably break it. Buffing it would only be buffing them, I doubt that more champions would begin to pick it up. Therefore it is fine as is it: intentionally weak so that the people that pick up and break it now have a balance item.

Olath Quortek1 votes

I think this is absolutely genius and well written. These all seem like fairly healthy and balance-able changes.

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