The damage reduction from Knight's Vow and Phantom Dancer need to not stack.

WoonStruck·Nov 3, 2016·115 votes·11,291 views

We don't need to start a + + support's Knight's Vow meta that makes ADCs take nearly 40% reduced damage that you can't mitigate in any way.

Imagine this with the support's new 600+ shield on ADCs late game.

Edit1: They'll be taking 52%+ reduced damage, even if you include Lethality late game, unless you can afford to take 4 Lethality items+runes/masteries. With Abyssal being changed, most mage's will be forced to utilize Void Staff much earlier in the game just to have a chance at killing ADCs. If they build Merc's, Murcurial, or Maw, GG _ _ Edit2: Yes, I know Void Staff does not affect raw damage reduction. I was referring to it in regards to the 30 base MR's mitigation, which was effectively just made much stronger on ADCs. Then on top of that Mercs and Maw or Mercurial.

187 Comments

Big LincolnNov 3, 201661 votes

lmao riot is making glass cannons tankier than full tanks

G fucking G

AgeOfTheMageNov 3, 201612 votes

cough cough cancer cough cough Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne Vayne

invisiblecat1Nov 3, 201619 votes

While she can Q with just shiv and IE and do more burst than assassins

VexingRavenNov 4, 20166 votes

{quoted}

While she can Q with just shiv and IE and do more burst than assassins

But muh bad early game (which everybody knows isn't even true anymore), much less relevant.

RivetAceNov 4, 20161 votes

Meanwhile, tanks outdamage carries with sunfire and iceborn.

Big LincolnNov 4, 20162 votes

the item damage is compounded to their base damage

It seems significant because you're squishy and lack of defense means any damage is a lot to you. but it's not really much vs other tanks and bruisers

Meep ManNov 3, 201637 votes

Graves item 3715 item 3812 item 3046 Maokai Knight's Vow + Bond of Stone + Ultimate

Graves : Howdy!

AstôlfoNov 3, 201623 votes

20%+essentially 15%+12%+12%+6%+20%=85%... ... logs out in the middle of the game

MrPlushNov 3, 20169 votes

It would probably be multiplicative. (.8 x .85 x .88 x .88 x .94 x .80) ≈.40 = 40% damage taken = 60% DR

WoonStruckNov 3, 201625 votes

It is multiplicative.

And then you remember his common itemization+E means he ends up at around 200 of each resist, or .33 as another multiplier.

.8 (mao) x .85 (DD) x .8 (red smite) x .94 (BoS) x .88 (PD) x .88 (KV) x .33 (armor/magic resist)= ~87% damage reduction.

Warlord's is going to be so OP next season.

GULAG 4 UNov 3, 201611 votes

"gg afk rito nerferino graverino his lack of cigarino made him even more unhealthyrino"

WoonStruckNov 3, 20164 votes

He'd only be taking 13% damage if you don't have armor/magic pen.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 201611 votes

{quoted}

He'd only be taking 13% damage if you don't have armor/magic pen.

Balanced.

But hey nerf the assassins amirite guys?

Fenikkusu1Nov 3, 201610 votes

Riot's Motto: The best kind of balance is the kind that isn't there :D

RomtheguyNov 4, 20164 votes

Let's add Dota 2 to the mix - the game that isn't too ashamed to admit that there's balance in inbalance ayy

VexingRavenNov 4, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Let's add Dota 2 to the mix - the game that isn't too ashamed to admit that there's balance in inbalance ayy

At least in Dota 2 almost everybody has some sort of overpowered bullshit that lets them dunk on people in the right circumstances. Unlike LoL where everybody tries so hard to be balanced that only the true dunkmasters are viable.

doombotMECHANov 4, 20162 votes

like dota just goes all out like yeah enigma has a sick cc ult that you can't cleanse out of but the cooldown is like five minutes

SpoofghoulNov 3, 20162 votes

Garen item 3047 item 1413 item 3812 item 3046 item 3143 with courage active

Plus Maokai with ult active and bond of stone and knightsvow active

vs adc's with crit this is 12% + 20% + 15% + 12% + 10% + 30% + 20% + 6% + 12% = 137% reduction . . ?!

will i heal now if they attack me?

5000000000000000Nov 3, 20162 votes

It's multiplicative

WoonStruckNov 3, 20167 votes

Its multiplicative.

.7 (W) x .8 (mao) x .8 (red smite) x .9 (Tabi) x .85 (DD) x .88 (PD) x . 88 (KV) x .94 (BoS) x .9 (RO1) x .9 (RO2).

79.8% damage reduction.

Throw in armor (78.5 base, 75.93 from runes, 150 from items, 30 from W, 15 from Legendary Guardian, and +5% bonus armor from unyielding), you have ~350 armor; 74.1% reduction.

(74.1% reduction from armor ) x (79.8% universal reduction) = 94.23% damage reduction vs crit autos.

If Jhin crit you for 100,000 damage, you'd only be over-killed by about 1766 damage. :)

bill84Nov 4, 20166 votes

I mean, if someone were critting for 100,000 in one shot, you would just buy item 3075 and they would one-shot themselves.

Auz the RipperNov 3, 20162 votes

Multiplicative mate, not additive

AstôlfoNov 3, 201612 votes

lul

What's not to love about ADC mains crying about assassins instead of learning to play?

TotalJerkNov 3, 201612 votes

item 3715 and item 3046 currently stack and they fucking shouldn't. IMO no percent damage reduction should stack.

RavenMagusNov 3, 201611 votes

Void Staff won't even do anything against straight damage reduction.

I actually feel sorry for assassins. It's already hard for them to assassinate ADCs. In the new season they will be relegated to just assassinating other assassins, and then getting assassinated by the enemy ADC.

WoonStruckNov 3, 20164 votes

30 base magic resist, plus the three possible items I mentioned.

The effective damage reduction stacks with straight % damage reductions, so it does help, just not vs the universal % damage reduction stats.

PrimaquariusNov 3, 201610 votes

But muh enemies' 1200 burst damage...

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20166 votes

{quoted}

But muh enemies' 1200 burst damage...

From which Graves in the new season would take around 200 damage.

TyroneWatermelonNov 4, 20167 votes

Phantom dancer's damage reduction shouldn't exist anyway

TalisidNov 3, 20164 votes

I dunno I'd really feel like shit if I was playing a tank support with Vow and my idiot ADC decides to build PD anyway because they don't understand that they don't stack. Its like I'm getting my own item nerfed for reasons beyond my control.

Same goes in the other direction tbh.

WoonStruckNov 3, 201621 votes

So you'd rather have something completely broken than something balanced?

If Maw+Sterak's don't stack, PD+KV DEFINITELY shouldn't stack.

LeonerdoNov 3, 20163 votes

I've been thinking about this for like 2 hours now, and I've come to the conclusion that there is no clear problem. Primarily because there are strong alternatives to PD and Knight's Vow. And they don't actually synergize that strongly anyways; at best you could argue that KV makes PD's passive 12% more valuable. Unless your ADC really needs both (or actually all three, including Locket) in order to not get one-shot, there's always another potentially better option: For example, Hurricane instead of PD for more damage, or a different utility item instead of KV; maybe something with more personal tankiness, or even Zeke's if you want to give damage instead of tankiness to your ADC.

The only problem I'm slightly worried about is the potential of a 9-item ADC because of KV + Zeke's Harbinger + Ardent Censer + Locket. But we already have the possibility of Karma/Lulu mid plus a regular support making the ADC a god, and I don't know about you, but I haven't seen that strat being very dominant. Putting all your eggs in one basket rarely pays off, after all.

WoonStruckNov 3, 20162 votes

Supports are often putting all of their eggs in one basket anyway, though. Remember when support Nunu was good? He was good for this exact reason.

If the option is effectively available to more peel/engage-oriented champs (who offer way more than gold value differences like Nunu), it can very easily become a large problem, not to mention support diversity issues.

Of all of the aspects to this stacking, PD is probably the least likely to stick, since it only applies to the last target auto attacked and Hurricane is so insanely cost-efficient compared to the other options, including PD.

If Hurricane gets nerfed (it should), I'd have no doubt that this could easily become the optimal way to play around ADC, especially with supports like Alistar or Janna.

manbearswineNov 3, 20161 votes

Just make them stack multiplicatively and you'll be k.

WoonStruckNov 3, 20162 votes

That is multiplicative.

It already currently is multiplicative as well.

manbearswineNov 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That is multiplicative.

It already currently is multiplicative as well.

So how did you get 40%? I get 34%(34.167% to be more accurate). There's also the issue that knight's vow is overpowered(this is zeke's all over again, expect it to get nerfed to shit for the same reasons, these items are like soraka, a series of miserable failures).

Anyway making knight's vow not stack with death's dance/phantom dancer is just going to create awkward interactions(kind of like zeke's and >50% crit chances, which ends up with zeke's being bought pretty much only in competitive) between players in solo q(On paper people should react to what the other is building... in practice that doesn't go that way), if it becomes a problem(which honestly, there's a good chance for that happening) you should make death's dance and phantom dancers passives not stack with each other.

Also knight's vow definitely needs nerfs.

WoonStruckNov 3, 20163 votes

.88 (KV) x .88 (PD) x .85 (DD) x .94 (BoS)= 38.1% reduction.

I said nearly 40%. Not 40% exactly.

QaznGodNov 4, 20161 votes

What people fail to realize is that no matter how fed an adc is they generally all die in the same amount of time. 21-9-3 vayne is still gonna get one shot when she's CC'd. I don't know if it's the right fix or not but I do feel like there is room for tweaks in this area. Adcs should have some more ways to survive but no they shouldn't be super tanky or anything like that. But I see why they might want to give Adcs more chance to live through a team fight. Could be good might be super bad. But I see the point of direction

WoonStruckNov 4, 20166 votes

No, ADCs should not have more ways to survive unless they're sacrificing significant damage.

That's the entire reason League has power-creeped so far. ADCs are over-tuned already and rather than addressing that, Riot wants to address everything else.

ADCs are harder to kill this season than any other, and they deal more damage than any other.

ThisgameisturdsNov 4, 20161 votes

im not sure you are playing the same game, if anything, the inverse is true. assassins keep getting better and better at diving the back line. leaving only 2-3 viable adc choices. not to mention there is no way to 1v1 an assassin on an adc currently. not that it is hard, there...is....simply....no.....way. but yeah lets leave it in the current state until nobody wants to pick adc because they are unviable and more of a liability than anything else. seems like a good plan.

Akali is SO HOTNov 4, 20163 votes

>Mandatory since the beginning of the game >Assassins constantly nerfed over the seasons >More and more suvivability for ADCs

???

Wolfram OxfordNov 4, 20161 votes

People are always quick to complain about theory crafted ideas. "THIS IS GOING TO BREAK THE GAME, ADC WILL BE TANKS" , to be honest people you all complained about ADCs having this combination; item 3046 item 3812 item 3053 item 3156 item 3026

But turns out this stuff wasn't built on every ADC because there was a huge damage sacrifice and the gold it takes to build all of this isn't worth it, especially when you deal no damage and its safer to have heavy damage with your lifesteal. So just relax, it isn't going to break the game, and there is no reason to request changes before its even hit live servers, where you the people who are complaining, get a chance to play around with the new changes.

JunkοNov 4, 20165 votes

You do realize Sterak+Maw used to be a thing and it was gutted? Not to mention some like Graves and Kindred combined it with PD? And Graves now already still builds 3 of those and guess what, he is busted AF.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20163 votes

Sterak's+Maw was basically gutted because ranged ADCs abused it. PD+DD is only a two item combination as well, and offers far more damage.

DD wasn't used because its only effective if you have high mitigation and high damage.

Knight's Vow is pushing them much closer to that threshold.

Wolfram OxfordNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sterak's+Maw was basically gutted because ranged ADCs abused it. PD+DD is only a two item combination as well, and offers far more damage.

DD wasn't used because its only effective if you have high mitigation and high damage.

Knight's Vow is pushing them much closer to that threshold.

I don't think you realized initially they were used, and they only took minimal changes, but they were quickly replaced by high damage builds yet again because the survivability wasn't worth the loss of damage. These items won't be a problem, trust me.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20163 votes

It was only replaced after it was nerfed. lol

Wolfram OxfordNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It was only replaced after it was nerfed. lol

If you had a choice would you pick the strongest version of AD defensive items, or would you pick the high damage items? You are saying you would choose poor damage and survivability over high damage, which is what you are trying to provide, and being squishy, by the way even with all of these defensive items you won't last long without health.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20163 votes

In what world is

75 AD
45% AS
30% Crit

From two items poor damage?

Nobody said they were going to rush the DD before IE or anything. Just like Sterak's+Maw was never rushed. It was 3rd/4th buy at the earliest.

They aren't defensive items. They're offensive items with significant damage. They'd be giving up much less than with Sterak's and Maw, which was common.

No, a squishy won't be able to tank like a top laner or jungle, but marksmen already have too reliable survivability compared to other seasons. There's a reason Graves grabs them. Its not unlikely that other ADCs will now have enough reductions to make good use of them with the introduction of Knight's Vow.

Invalidating 50% of burst is a lot, high HP or no. It makes them much tankier back-liners, and its probably going to pop up most prominently once the Diver update rolls around.

Wolfram OxfordNov 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In what world is

75 AD

45% AS

30% Crit

From two items poor damage?

Nobody said they were going to rush the DD before IE or anything. Just like Sterak's+Maw was never rushed. It was 3rd/4th buy at the earliest.

They aren't defensive items. They're offensive items with significant damage. They'd be giving up much less than with Sterak's and Maw, which was common.

No, a squishy won't be able to tank like a top laner or jungle, but marksmen already have too reliable survivability compared to other seasons. There's a reason Graves grabs them. Its not unlikely that ADCs will have enough reductions to make good use of them with the introduction of Knight's Vow.

Invalidating 50% of burst is a lot, high HP or no. It makes them much tankier back-liners, and its probably going to pop up most prominently once the Diver update rolls around.

When you can buy: item 3031 item 3085

Stats: 70 AD 50% crit chance 40% AS 50% Increased crit damage 25-62.5% AD damage on two other targets 7% MS

It is a lot more gold efficient and allows you to hit pretty hard, plus it scales better with other AD items.

WoonStruckNov 4, 20163 votes

Runaan's is going to get nerfed eventually. Its almost 30% more gold efficient than the other zeal items.

The 'two other targets' thing rarely happens unless your targets already lost the teamfight.

And again, I said PD+DD would not be rushes.

Its very likely that it could go IE+PD first, then DD.

IE+PD is

70 AD

50% crit

45% AS

50% increased crit damage

12% MS

12% DR

Yeah, its damage is soooo inferior, isn't it... Follow that up with DD if your support grabs KV and other ADCs will not be able to fight you without a gold/level lead.