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Seperating how Vanguards and Wardens perform the role of "tanking;" OR; "How I'd do a Tank Update"

PopcornBunni··1 votes·1,350 views

Tanks have been in a bad spot for a long while. It's not a surprise at this point, the only debate is when it started (7.4 tank item changes? Runes Reforged heavily favoring damage? Conqueror's introduction?). A part of the problem, I feel at least, is that the two subclasses of tanks want to be doing very different things. Vanguards need to able to survive an initial onslaught of attacks in order to get in and land their AOE crowd control. Wardens, however, want to keep the enemy off of vulnerable ally targets, usually through direct defensive boons to that ally as is the case with Shen TahmKench Braum, though in the other cases, by having ways to stop engages outright (Poppy), strongly punishing an engage with a counter attack (Galio), or generally existing as a giant stop sign with a massive aoe nuke (Nunu). To this end, the tanking that wardens want to do is living for a long span of time to hold off enemies, while Vanguards want to be able to tank large amounts of initial burst damage.

However, the design of many of the tanks and tank options lends itself to vanguards standing around holding off opponents (Alistar comes to mind having absurd long lasting damage soaking on his ult and an E that launches enemies into last week) or generally just ignoring sustained damage all together Rammus , Amumu.) Wardens then, need to be able to pull double duty, because "anti engage," "team peeling," and "sustained trading" are all things that vanguards (and in other cases, Divers even) can do in their place. Well, when tanks are allowed to be viable at all that is.

IMO, wardens (So for top lane, TahmKench Poppy Shen Galio ) should have a higher health regen on average as a form of natural sustain. They are meant to be the "true tanks" that are around for the fight start to finish, so it makes sense for them to have more staying power.

Vanguards, the majority of tanks, should instead have more up front damage soaking ability, like Sejuani or Malphite's bonus resistances at the start of a scuffle, to allow for strong, successful engages. As a downside though, they shouldn't have as much ability to stick in the heat of battle, since they offer so much more AOE crowd control than their warden counterparts.

Riot seems to have started doing this, though with laughably small inches toward it, with Sion and Ornn, two historically problematic vanguards, getting a slap on the wrist of reduced health regen. It isn't nearly enough of a shift, but at least on principle it shows that they don't want these kind of champions shrugging off damage forever with health regen rivaling Garen's passive.

So, here's the changelist I would make regarding the tanks, both vanguards and wardens, starting with the solo lane champions

Poppy Health regen: 8 (+0.8) -> 9.5 (+1.0) Shen Health regen: 8.5 (+0.75) -> 9.5 (+0.95) TahmKench Health regen: 6.5 (+0.55) -> 6.5 (+1.0); E % of grey health heal: 15/20/25/30/35 -> 10/15/20/25/30 Galio Health regen: 8 (+0.8) -> 9 (+0.85); Armor: 24 (+3.5) -> 21 (+3.9)

Malphite Health regen: 7 (+0.55) -> 5 (+0.5); Passive shield health %: 10 -> 15 Sion Health regen: 7.5 (+0.8) -> 4 (+0.3); Health: 542.64 (+73) -> 600 (+70) Nautilus Health regen: 8.5 (+0.55) -> 6.5 (+0.6); W shield strength: 60/70/80/90/100 (+9/10/11/12/13% health) -> 80/85/90/95/100 + (7/9/11/13/15% health); W on-hit damage: 45/60/75/90/105 (+60% AP) (over 2 seconds) -> 30/50/70/90/110 (+70% AP) (at once) Maokai Passive heal: 5 -65 (+ 6-13% max health) -> (7.5% max health); Health: 565 (+95) -> 617 (+99) Ornn Health regen: 9 (+0.9) -> 5 (+0.7); Passive: when crafting health or mana items, Ornn will only gain max health/mana, not current health/mana; Passive bonus armor and MR: 10% -> 20%, dropping by 5% for every second he remains in combat Gnar not included because he does not have the play pattern of either tank class until he enters rage, which is a strong enough burst-resistant vanguard form as-is.

And into the jungle Nunu No changes. Keep that sustained healing with Q up, boys.

Amumu E passive physical damage reduction: 2/4/6/8/10 (+3% bonus AR + 3% MR) -> 2/9/16/23/30 (+9% Bonus AR + 9% MR). This effect lasts for up to 3 seconds after receiving damage before falling off Rammus W (Defensive ball curl) Duration: 6s -> 4s; active bonus armor: 30 (+60/70/80/90/100% AR) -> 30/40/50/60/70 (+100% AR); active bonus Magic Resistance: 10 (+30/35/40/45/50% MR) -> 15/20/25/30/35 (+50% MR) Gragas passive cooldown: 8s -> 16s; passive heal: 6% -> 10%; W cooldown: 5s -> 16s; W damage reduction: 10/12/14/16/18% (+4% AP%) -> 20/24/28/32/36% (+0.3% per 100 max health); W damage: 20/50/80/110/140 (+50% AP) (+8% of targets' max health) -> 20/50/80110/140 (+80% AP) (+12% of targets' max health) Sejuani Passive bonus resistances: 20 (+25% bonus resistance) -> 5 (+60% bonus resistance); Q damage: 80/120/160/200/240 (+40% AP)-> 60/100/140/180/220 (+60% AP); E damage: 40/80/120/160/200 (+60% AP) -> 20/40/60/80/100 (+90% AP); R damage (minimum): 100/125/150 (+40% AP) -> 80/100/120 (+60% AP) Zac Passive % health restore on blob pickup: 4% -> 3%; Q cooldown: 13/12/11/10/9s -> 15/14/13/12/11s; Q cost: 8% c Health -> 6% c Health; Q AP scaling: 30% -> 40%; W cooldown: 5s -> 6s; W cost: 4% -> 3% W damage: 15/30/45/60/75 (+4/5/6/7/8% target's max health) -> 40/55/70/85/100 (+ 4/5/6/7/8% (+ 2% per 100 AP) target's max health); E cost: 4% -> 3%

Zac specifically could also stand for some QoL fixes to his R casting logic; say, pressing R, inputting a movement location, then releasing R automatically charges R up to the minimum 1s needed to carry enemies with him, with the failsafe of double tapping R if instead you want to just end it faster instead of carrying them.

Finally supports, though some of these may come off on the side of nerfs rather than buffs since it's the only place tanks do alright in at the moment

Taric Mana: 300 (+60) -> 370 (+56); Q heal per charge: 30 (+20% AP + 1% Taric's Max Health) -> 20 (+30% AP +2% Max Health) (Max heal: 150 + 100% AP +5% Health -> 100 + 150% AP + 10% Health); W shield strength: 8/9/10/11/12% of self/ally's max health -> 8/8.5/9/9.5/10% of Taric's max health**;** W armor bonus: 10/12.5/15/17.5/20% -> 14/18/22/26/30%, reduced by 1/3 for his bastion-bound ally Braum W resistance bonuses: 10/14/18/22/26 (10/11.5/13/14.5/16% resistance) -> 18/21/24/27/30 (+20/22/24/26/28% resistance) this bonus is halved for the ally Braum jumps to; E (wall) duration: 3/3.25/3.5/3.75/4s -> 3/3.5/4/4.5/5s. Casting E while W is active will extend the duration of W's resistances until the wall ends.

Alistar R damage reduction: 55/65/75% -> 55/70/85%, falling off over the duration; R duration: 7s -> 4/6/8s Leona Q cooldown 6s -> 9s; W armor and MR bonus removed, replaced with % damage reduction: 10/15/20/25/30% (+2% bonus AR% and 4% bonus MR%)

There's a lot here, some more extensive than others, and I will be glad to answer questions about why I chose each change for each champion and would love to hear feedback.

23 Comments

heroikc3 votes

Yo, you know Ornn is incredibly weak during the early phase, with 0 shields or heals, and countered by 95% of the roster? He needs the regen to stay in lane better (if only by a few more seconds). The change to the resistance passive also made no sense, given they were more or less introduced when his shield was removed, and he is a tank (so why should he suffer a Trundle Ult effect when he's trying to fight?) [slayer-jinx-unamused]

PopcornBunni1 votes

Twice the resistances as already in allows stronger trades, and backing off for all of 5 whole seconds refreshes the bonus. The exact drop rate isn't precise, and couild be during combat with champions only, or at a lower (say 2%) rate. The point is to allow him a stronger engage/initial trade but fall off to sustained trades. Thanks for the response though, I'm glad to justify or tweak each idea on a case-by-case basis.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

Twice the resistances as already in allows stronger trades, and backing off for all of 5 whole seconds refreshes the bonus. The exact drop rate isn't precise, and couild be during combat with champions only, or at a lower (say 2%) rate. The point is to allow him a stronger engage/initial trade but fall off to sustained trades. Thanks for the response though, I'm glad to justify or tweak each idea on a case-by-case basis.

Initially, yes, but few if any vanguards have any easy means to "backing off"; most are meant to go in and start hammering away, bashing people and CCing them. In other words; they're MEANT for SUSTAINED combat, just like other tanks and fighters. Ornn is no different, and given the range of his ult initiation, this drop off starts sooner and would likely jeopardize any future participation, given the remaining abilities in his kit and best items are all short ranged (item 3001 item 3025 item 3068). It also makes him more vulnerable to champs who do well in trades, particularly those who extend them with CC (Aatrox Darius Chogath Galio Irelia Kled Poppy Pantheon Renekton Riven Swain Urgot Yasuo Yorick), not to mention those who can proc the self-debuff sooner with range (Yasuo Yorick Vladimir Urgot Swain Pantheon Poppy Sion Rumble Olaf Nasus Kennen Kled Jayce Irelia Illaoi Gnar Fiora Ekko DrMundo Chogath Camille).

In other words, this is an overall NERF to Ornn throughout the game because it only ADDS to his weaknesses in early and makes late harder for him. At best, it offers zilch, nothing, nada in improving Ornn by any means than adding "numbers for show", and that is rather subpar, anyway.

PopcornBunni1 votes

That is the idea yes, to make him weaker to extended trades while improving his ability to engage. Does Sejuani suddenly become unviable because her frost armor can wear off? What about Malphite's shield?

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

That is the idea yes, to make him weaker to extended trades while improving his ability to engage. Does Sejuani suddenly become unviable because her frost armor can wear off? What about Malphite's shield?

Sejuani gain 20 + 25% for each respective resistance and slow immunity when she enters combat with large monsters or champions, more meant to solidify her jungle role and minimize kiting/counterattacks effectiveness. Her CC is also more convenient than Ornn's (a tackle and some pokes to his charge to wall and hitting after breathing on them). Malphite's shield is more of extra health than resistances, and he's more of an all-in initiator, anyway. He also has targeted poke and more convenient AoE. They also have ult initiations that are easier to deploy than Ornn's two stager; Malph unstoppably knocks people up and Sej throws an icy bolo with AoE slow. In other words; their passives are just buffers to make them better tanks. The mechanic your suggesting is "give free stuff but pull it away when he tries to fight." It will make no sense in practice, especially since Poppy gains resistances as the fight goes on (check W passive), Maokai and Gragas can heal themselves, and Leona has bonus stats on hotkey, Malph gains passive armor on W, even without shield, etc, etc.

Iota Theta3 votes

A problem here is you seem to focus on Vanguards as only the initiation of a fight. That is a part of their job, but they still need power in sustained fights because they are going into the fray and staying in, and it’s usually the enemy team trying to stop them. Most Vanguards also don’t have ways of getting out of a fight. Malphite’s ult is his engage and only mobility, Maokai has to target an enemy, Sion only has ult, Ornn uses E to get the knockups and it’s not the greatest escape route. Once those Vanguards go in, they’re in and not getting out easily, so they need some defensive power in sustained combat.

To take your Ornn example, it’s almost be counterintuitive for the enemy to disengage from him because he would just get his passive back and dive in again.

It’s fine to try and delineate the difference between Vanguards and Wardens, but this isn’t the best way. Their kits and how they’re used are a better way of looking at things, are they better at disengaging and protecting, reactive CC (Poppy R, W, and W, Galio R, Taric ult and E, Maokai old ult, Braum W, E, and ult), or hard, fast, proactive engages (Ornn ult and E, Malphite Ult, Zac, etc)?

Ralanr1 votes

Increasing Sion’s base health seems kinda counter intuitive because he has a low base health to compensate for his health gain. It’s generally why his health regeneration isn’t complete shit either.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

Increasing Sion’s base health seems kinda counter intuitive because he has a low base health to compensate for his health gain. It’s generally why his health regeneration isn’t complete shit either.

542 is not low by any means. As is he already has more than two of the most frequent top lane tanks -- Poppy and Shen. The 58 higher starting health and 51 lower health over the game is to do just that, emphasize his health gain from W rather than having all of damage, engage, regen, and facetanking. I'd consider even going further weakening his health per level so he ends up lower at level 18 without stacking W, but went with a more middle-ground approach since I hit his regen so much.

Not to say that Sion with a 52% WR for the last 4 years straight couldn't stand to have some straight nerfs, but I think the buffs to the other top lane tanks could be enough to push out his dominance.

Ralanr1 votes

I’m sorry, but what is Sion’s base end health compared to those two currently? I’m currently in a class so I can’t double check.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

I’m sorry, but what is Sion’s base end health compared to those two currently? I’m currently in a class so I can’t double check.

Live Base health at level 1 vs level 18? Sion: 542.64 - 1783.6 Shen: 540 - 1985 Poppy: 540 - 2070

Ralanr1 votes

Thank you. Sion I’m pretty sure has the lowest base health as a tank at level 18.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Thank you. Sion I’m pretty sure has the lowest base health as a tank at level 18.

That he is.

PopcornBunni1 votes

542 vs 540 (hey it's more I didn't say a lot more). It's mitigated thereafter at level 2, but that's usually when sion has his W leveled. The point is that he doesn't really have low base health, he has low health gains since he gets gains from his W instead.

Same thing with Thresh's armor. He doesn't have all that low base armor even though he can gain a lot with his passive, but he has low (in this case 0) armor gain per level. It's lower than plenty of tanks, but on par with other supports and higher than several champions expected to solo lane like Anivia Ryze Jayce Vladimir. (funnily enough, Sion has among the median base armors of 32).

Ralanr2 votes

But you don’t balance a tank’s defenses by comparing them to non tanks. Vlad has different reasons for his stats than Sion.

PopcornBunni1 votes

Which is why I only compared Sion's defenses to other tanks. Unless you think Thresh is a tank now?

Ralanr1 votes

My apologies.

Though in the case of base health, Sion's actual max health at level 18 is 1783.6, whereas Shen's is 1985 and Poppy's is 2070. While his base HP is about 2 points higher at level 1, he is very much reliant on health stacking from his passive to keep up. Increasing his base health but reducing his regen only makes his health gain faster, but painfully hits his laning, and Sion's laning is supposed to be strong.

Minimac20001 votes

I like what you are thinking... but especially with gragas doubling his w CD and nerfing his passive at the same time would damage his ability to clear jg at all. So yeah, that looks like it would be fine to play mid/support but you ain't jungling with that gragas and that kinda takes away his main role so...... Holy crap you increased cds on Zac too. I take it you've never played zac? He has probably THE slowest jg clear in the game (of actual junglers) and you just made it even worse lmao

PopcornBunni

Feel free to discuss the issues tanks face in general here as well.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

Feel free to discuss the issues tanks face in general here as well.

OK, why further separate them? They're already one big family, so adding more differences seems...counterintuitive.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

OK, why further separate them? They're already one big family, so adding more differences seems...counterintuitive.

Because Vanguards, Juggernauts, and divers to the job of Wardens better, as evidenced by the only viable tanks ever being Sion and, at higher levels, Ornn.

They offer too much for the other tank class to compete with. They have stronger egages, stronger trading, stronger cc, all without compensating any sustain or damage.

Ralanr3 votes

Ornn doesn’t really have stronger CC. It requires a lot more variables (walls, a brittle proc, etc) than a lot of other tanks

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

Ornn doesn’t really have stronger CC. It requires a lot more variables (walls, a brittle proc, etc) than a lot of other tanks

THANK YOU! Someone else who knows about Ornn.[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

Because Vanguards, Juggernauts, and divers to the job of Wardens better, as evidenced by the only viable tanks ever being Sion and, at higher levels, Ornn.

They offer too much for the other tank class to compete with. They have stronger egages, stronger trading, stronger cc, all without compensating any sustain or damage.

HOW????? You do know Vanguards are SUPPOSED to have strong engages, compared to wardens, and more CC to use for more engaging (two for Sion, three for Ornn, etc). And have you played Poppy? Strong poke and combos, hard to gank, pseudo engage, all in a warden bundle. I can play her against Yas and am likely to win.

And two vanguards is not really much proof; how do they fight in teamfights? Do they charge in or hang back? How well was there early game? If they're so powerful, why not play them? Sion is, what? 1350 BE? Less?

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