@Meddler Context on Nautilus PBE changes

TheSingularity · 2017-07-12T07:02:26.541Z

The moment anything related happens I'm onto it. Currently is not having a great time in any position. He has abysmal pick and win rates in top and support, and a pick rate so low, he doesn't even show up on many sites as a jungler. There're plenty of reasons that lay outside of his kit: Tank item update changes reduce available item HP (nerf to naut shield) Abundance of dmg reduction (most tanks have just enough damage to be scary, these items turn them into fluffy kittens) Abundance of armor pen and %HP damage, where armor is the dominant item stat However his kit is still a large part of the equation, and while these changes are welcome in that they reveal that is on your radar, I feel these aren't the changes he needs. His cooldowns haven't been a problem in terms of "being too long" for as long as I can remember. And given the abundance of CDR options they're probably not an issue atm. While the Q damage buff is welcome, as it increases his burst without the dps (less likely to break his laning perfomance like his E did). But the change will have minimal impact up top and down bot ( as he still has to get the fat hitbox through minions). But the bigger issue, is that if these buffs go through then he has much less wriggle room for future buffs to other parts of his kit. More so buffs to help him return to the jungle. As discussed on another post, the first one I've seen in eons about naut by someone not me. The common thought was directly buffing the damage output of nauts' W, the way it used to be. His W being the bread and butter of his kit, the key that allowed him to do what he does best. Smash people with CC from the jungle. What is the purpose of these changes? Why not just revert to pre patch 5.5, the patch where you turned him into a monster. Or even go back to pre patch 5.1 in which you crushed his early game shield strength in exchange for marginal late-game benefit. As I said in that thread. His W was never a problem before, and it most certainly won't be a problem now if you buff it.

Karn BishopJul 12, 20174 votes

Your missing the point, Nautilus was always meant to be a jungler and these changes do absolutely nothing to bring him back to where he should be and the only meaningful buffs that would bring him back to jungle is strengthening W.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

I think there is some citation needed. I am aware that he was originally played as a jungler, but top/sup have been much more important since season 4. While I respect that you may prefer jungle Nautilus I'm afraid that that doesn't mean much - I don't get my tank toplane Kha back either :(

As it is right now Nautilus has been troublesome as an overly reliable toplane tank that couldn't really lose lane while easily being able to shove. Now that he has lost the ability to shove 24/7 he is weak but when you look at his current play pattern it makes much more sense to buff his Q. Again, right now he doesn't use his Q offensively in lane which is just such a shame when his kit is actually all about his anchor (citation is added, you will realize that Xyph doesn't talk about the shield too much if even at all because it just isn't meant to be the defining feature and is also quite lame compared to being the first hookshot in the game).

Sidenote: how can you say that I am missing the point about him supposedly being a jungler when it wasn't even mentioned in the original post?

Karn BishopJul 12, 20171 votes

The original post does mention it briefly at the start about jungling.

Also some champions are just meant to be in their original and primary role, it would be unthinkable for a Amumu to not jungle, or for an Alistar to be a primary jungler and never support, i firmly believe that the only place nautilus kit can be healthy is in the jungle because anywhere else he either excels so well that he is god like or is utter trash to play as in any role.

Im not saying he can never top or support but like many other champions that occasionally dip into off meta lanes it should be a small minority of naut's doing it.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

He is hardly comparable to Amumu, see here: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1823933&page=1

People weren't sure where to play him shortly after release and a brief time of him being OP as jungle (s3 or 4 I think) aside he was never considered a primary jungler.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20171 votes

Actually given the only position he was mentioned with on any statistics site was jungle throughout season 3 and 4 was the jungle, a majority of his playerbase despite it being small used him predominantly in that position. Seeing him was rare, but when I did it was jungle in that time period. I saw one naut in a different position, support. Before you question the memory, when you love a champ that pops up as rarely as naut did in season 3, any naut I saw was worth sticking in long term storage.

Now jungle is never mentioned with top/support taking its place.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20171 votes

Currently is not having a great time in any position. He has abysmal pick and win rates in top and support, and a pick rate so low, he doesn't even show up on many sites as a jungler.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

But that is no problem as long as you don't think that he is meant to be a jungler. Which wasn't mentioned at all in the OP, this just seem like a curious fact seeing how OP didn't even talk about the effect that his proposed changes would have on Nautilus Jungle.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20171 votes

I didn't as I attempted to leave my bias towards the jungle out of it. Seems that was the wrong approach.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20174 votes

Naut was able to shove endlessly due to his overbuffed E, not his W. As I said, his W wasn't a problem before. There was no stupidly broken top lane naut until he had the stats from his W reduced and those of his E increased. 2 YEARS AGO. Without investing into AS runes, a naut W ain't going to clear out an entire wave in one cast.

A naut isn't going to be more aggressive in lane because his Q damage goes up a little bit. It's unreliable, can't go through minions, is his only from of escape and is best saved in case it's needed for that. If anything a W damage will increase aggressiveness. It's reliable and his bread&butter, but unlike his E it's far less optimal for endless wave clear due to its cooldown and mana cost.

The early R change doesn't encourage good plays unless the naut is way behind in levels, a naut will engage/roam/gank with/without his shield as long as he has the back up to ensure the target dies while locked down. Then we hit late-game and it's just as low in CD as it ever was.

If you're leaving a nautilus alone for the entire duration of his shield, then you don't know the match up. Engage around minions where he can't Q you and where his E will deal reduced damage, since it will likely hit a minion first. Smash his pitiful early game shield down and then what does he have? Nothing. If he's smart he held onto his Q so he can flee.

Given your champion pool I don't see how you'd ever struggle with this match up. I'm far below you in every way and I'll out shove a naut any day with Yorick Kled Illaoi with the kill pressure to match.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Naut was able to shove endlessly due to his overbuffed E, not his W. As I said, his W wasn't a problem before. There was no stupidly broken top lane naut until he had the stats from his W reduced and those of his E increased. 2 YEARS AGO. Without investing into AS runes, a naut W ain't going to clear out an entire wave in one cast.

But now is the time of putting back power into his kit and putting power into his W rewards playing safe as opposed to making plays. And again, using his huge hook only to swing back is not a great "combat" pattern. Push, root enemies that come to close and hookshot back when in danger. Ughh.

A naut isn't going to be more aggressive in lane because his Q damage goes up a little bit. It's unreliable, can't go through minions, is his only from of escape and is best saved in case it's needed for that. If anything a W damage will increase aggressiveness. It's reliable and his bread&butter, but unlike his E it's far less optimal for endless wave clear due to its cooldown and mana cost.

The Q changes send the right message: you want increased rewards? Great, but you need to increase your risks. Also, this is better because it makes him better at playing against ranged champions as it allows him to punish them for misspositioning and better gank follow-up.

The early R change doesn't encourage good plays unless the naut is way behind in levels, a naut will engage/roam/gank with/without his shield as long as he has the back up to ensure the target dies while locked down. Then we hit late-game and it's just as low in CD as it ever was.

This means that Nautilus has more of an incentive to TP bot or even roam and TP top. And Nautilus players should do that already and will now get rewarded even more.

If you're leaving a nautilus alone for the entire duration of his shield, then you don't know the match up. Engage around minions where he can't Q you and where his E will deal reduced damage, since it will likely hit a minion first. Smash his pitiful early game shield down and then what does he have? Nothing. If he's smart he held onto his Q so he can flee.

I wasn't looking for matchup advice, thanks.

Given your champion pool I don't see how you'd ever struggle with this match up. I'm far below you in every way and I'll out shove a naut any day with with the kill pressure to match.

I don't. Nautilus is an easy matchup right now and was an easy matchup before. He was very reliable and very reliable shit against Riven. If we were to return him to his full power the way it used to be I should be super happy because I get more easy matchups. But I am not a lobbyist for only my interests, I simply think that Nautilus is not very appealing as a champion the way he was played - as opposed to a more engaging version of himself.

I figure a Nautilus with a stronger Q would actually be more dangerous for Riven as she'd need to actually care for his engages and gank followup. This is not about me struggling, this is about me wanting him to be a more appealing champion as he got designed by my favorite designer and based on what Xypherous wrote about him I think he should be way more about using his hook correctly and more offensively rather than safely.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20172 votes

I can see your point in terms of the function. And especially after his cinematic appearance where he smashed both jax and graves with his anchor I was filled to the brim with ideas to change the way it functions in exchange for more power.

The issue from my point, is that I never embraced top lane naut because I preferred to be the rebel who did anything but the meta, just didn't like being a meta sheep. So Jungle naut was what I went with. In which it was what you desire for top lane nautilus, relentless ganks and engagements, the polar opposite of what top lane naut has been.

I simply think that Nautilus is not very appealing as a champion the way he was played

I agree. I personally hate going up against Gangplank Nasus Heimerdinger Singed due to their uninteractive playstyles. It pisses me off when I have to sit there and do nothing, especially if I know they will outscale me.

But buffing the damage or HP granted by his shield is not going to have an identical effect to the terror of E spam nautilus. It has a high mana cost, a long cooldown, relies on attack speed to do the job (if he goes AS quints+reds or AP then the shield goes down quicker). For me, having a stronger shield is a much higher incentive to engage, as I'm more likely to win the trade with it than his Q.

I'd engage the same way I gank. I'd simply stroll up to them, snare and slow in what ever order is necessary with W active and save my Q for when/if they flash. If they don't F then I Q and yay I win. But if my Q is the only scary thing about me, they'll just eat the Q and not give a dam about the rest.

Yes, it's bias, it's selfish. But while you view Q buff as incentive to go in, I view a W buff the same way. As a long time naut main, I couldn't care less how much damage the Q it did. Could deal zero. Its purpose isn't damage. A lower Q cooldown would be an incentive to be aggressive

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I can see your point in terms of the function. And especially after his cinematic appearance where he smashed both jax and graves with his anchor I was filled to the brim with ideas to change the way it functions in exchange for more power.

The issue from my point, is that I never embraced top lane naut because I preferred to be the rebel who did anything but the meta, just didn't like being a meta sheep. So Jungle naut was what I went with. In which it was what you desire for top lane nautilus, relentless ganks and engagements, the polar opposite of what top lane naut has been.

So we have a sort of similiar view on things, hopefully there is a way where jungle and toplane are both viable in a good way.

But buffing the damage or HP granted by his shield is not going to have an identical effect to the terror of E spam nautilus. It has a high mana cost, a long cooldown, relies on attack speed to do the job (if he goes AS quints+reds or AP then the shield goes down quicker). For me, having a stronger shield is a much higher incentive to engage, as I'm more likely to win the trade with it than his Q.

Well that just depends on how much damage the Q does, if it did more then you would have a higher incentive (winning trades can be done with Q or W/E but the former means that there is room for mistakes).

I'd engage the same way I gank. I'd simply stroll up to them, snare and slow in what ever order is necessary with W active and save my Q for when/if they flash. If they don't F then I Q and yay I win. But if my Q is the only scary thing about me, they'll just eat the Q and not give a dam about the rest.

Even with Q buffs you'd do the same thing. Your first AA is there for the root and the success of the gank still relies on you hitting that late Q - which means the result of the gank isn't predetermined like it would be with a strong W and a weak Q.

Yes, it's bias, it's selfish. But while you view Q buff as incentive to go in, I view a W buff the same way. As a long time naut main, I couldn't care less how much damage the Q it did. Could deal zero. Its purpose isn't damage. A lower Q cooldown would be an incentive to be aggressive

I think that comes with his Q not dealing enough damage in the past compared to the rest - and simply highlights how much is wrong with a skill that should feel insanely powerful.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20171 votes

FINALLY WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE! FEELS GOOD! XD

Just a thought.

New naut Q. When activated you can select 1 of 3 options. This could be achieved like tf W, or when he uses Q, QWE come up (with Q being the regular Q). W throws his up hook in a arc (like corki phosphur bomb), which flies over minions but slower than regular or the next Q with a wider hitbox. E Naut swings his hook on its chain in an arc, similar to diana Q to bend around minions.

If naut hits a champion all 3 will behave as present. Dragging them to naut, and naut to them.

Sire HippingtonJul 12, 20171 votes

His W actually is the most interactive part, he needs to consistently AA while it's up to utilize the damage, and opponents have the choice to burst through the shield to reduce his dps, or disengage till it wears off and then engage on their own.

Maybe some tweaks like lower shield, duratio, cd and manacosts atleast at early ranks might help for clearer windows and a more realistic chance of breaking the shield in a trade.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

In lane this means that opponents back off for as long as it goes and then fight him when it's on CD or when he is oom. But I see that you acknowledged this which means that it's clear that straight buffs to his W would be super bad overall. It would need major tweaking in order to be healthy and stronger than it is right now.

So what is the downside of putting more power into his Q? This would incentivize only aggressive play and strengthen his ganks in the jungle (dealing too little damage in ganks is a huge problem for tank junglers). It would certainly not encourage blind pushing and everything that toplane Nautilus did wrong for so long.

Sire HippingtonJul 12, 20171 votes

Waveclear is an important atribute to be viable in toplane, and Q offers non of it. Also, Q is just way to unreliable in lane with minions all around you, it would need to be tuned so high that it auto wins fights by miles if it connects to be his primary tool, else there are just to much risks envolved, makeing him a binary hit or miss laner. The chances to just fail it are high, and if you land it and don't win the trade afterwards, you just blew your escape to be stuck in a bad situation. Useing one's main escape tool in trades is never a good idea at top, unless you know 100% sure that you win even a prolonged trade while the opposing jungler is nowhere near, else you leave you self way to exposed. And by not even haveing survivabillity or waveclear tied to it, it also limits his fallback options if things go south quite alot.

And for his Ganks, if he lands that Q, it's a save flash or kill thx to his cc and still enough damage if his laner properly follows. Tanks junglers bring the lockdown, their laners bring the damage, easy as that. The big issue for tank junglers are their clears. Slow/unsustained clears mean little gank opportunities aswell as beeing more vulnerable to invades, and Q does nothing for his clearspeed or sustain.

The only role where a strong Q really helps is Bot, because as support he can move more freely to get the Q past the minions and he's more about the all-in anyway while also not needing things like clearspeed or waveclear.

Also, befor 5.5, back when W was strong, no one had issues with toplane nauti. His w even with its current uptimes is still a rather fair laneing tool. Toplane is a tough place, you don't get to be viable there by playing it all fair. Compared to what most other toplaners offer, fighting a W Nautilus is actually rather relaxing.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IsgHaWj9,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2017-07-12T12:40:08.590+0000)

Waveclear is an important atribute to be viable in toplane, and Q offers non of it. Also, Q is just way to unreliable in lane with minions all around you, it would need to be tuned so high that it auto wins fights by miles if it connects to be his primary tool, else there are just to much risks envolved, makeing him a binary hit or miss laner. The chances to just fail it are high, and if you land it and don't win the trade afterwards, you just blew your escape to be stuck in a bad situation. Useing one's main escape tool in trades is never a good idea at top, unless you know 100% sure that you win even a prolonged trade while the opposing jungler is nowhere near, else you leave you self way to exposed. And by not even haveing survivabillity or waveclear tied to it, it also limits his fallback options if things go south quite alot.

He is far from a hit or miss laner right now, as of right now he is extremely uninteractive - and buffing his instead of other parts of his kit will help with creating a better identity. These changes will not suddenly push him into the other extreme, they are needed to get him out of the current one. And when he was strong Nautilus was one of the safest toplaners - again, this change is not enough to completely reverse him into feast or famine, but it allows him to be strong due to having certain strengths and playing them right instead of being untouchable in many matchups and just shoving while having reliable escape.

Disclaimer: due to my championpool I have never had trouble with Nautilus. These are general complaints based on pro play and playstyle, I personally do not struggle with Nautilus.

And for his Ganks, if he lands that Q, it's a save flash or kill thx to his cc and still enough damage if his laner properly follows. Tanks junglers bring the lockdown, their laners bring the damage, easy as that. The big issue for tank junglers are their clears. Slow/unsustained clears mean little gank opportunities aswell as beeing more vulnerable to invades, and Q does nothing for his clearspeed or sustain.

Jungle clear is very close to toplane waveclear and among the tank junglers his waveclear isn't especially bad (sure Seju is better but there are others). If tank junglers still struggle they'd be better off buffing Cinderhulk rather than Nautilus and interferring with his toplane.

Also, befor 5.5, back when W was strong, no one had issues with toplane nauti. His w even with its current uptimes is still a rather fair laneing tool. Toplane is a tough place, you don't get to be viable there by playing it all fair. Compared to what most other toplaners offer, fighting a W Nautilus is actually rather relaxing.

Sure is. He isn't really threatening and is overall a rather comfortable opponent. But he is just so safe and has no edges at all.

Sire HippingtonJul 12, 20171 votes

He is far from a hit or miss laner** right now**

I'm not talking about right now, i'm not talking about after the buff, i'm talking about a scenario where it's worth useing your Q as main tradeing tool. And for that to happen, they would need to shift WAAAAAY more power into Q than the +20 damage at rank 1. Even after the buff, useing his Q for lane trades will be a sign of a bad nauti, as the mana and opportunity cost will still be far to high for the little pay-off. Unless they shift absurd power into his Q, it's just not a viable laneing-tool. And savety for both, the tank and the opponent always has been one of the reason to pick a toplane tank over a carry or bully. Picking a tank top is what you did when you wanted reliable performance from top so the jungler can concentrate on other parts of the map, and it comes at the cost of risking a carry laner getting easy farm in lane aswell as loosing out on the splitpush later on.

also, before 5.5, he was usually a jungler and rarly used as a toplaner( I probably was one of the few that used him as top regulary) , and he barely saw proplay so they certainly didn't think he was to save and had no edges back then, else they would have picked him up. Him beeing a poplar toplaner that causes issues only started after the E spam changes.

@Meddler Context on Nautilus PBE changes

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