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Manaflow Band - Is it really MORE accessible?

Oleandervine·Apr 13, 2018·1 votes·1,296 views

Riot, you guys said this in the latest patch notes:

Manaflow Band has quietly been one of the strongest runes—on the champions who use it best. To make it more accessible, we're tying its variance to game skill and landing spells, not the cost of those spells.

With the changes you guys did to it, I feel like you gutted it's accessibility and tied it way more heavily to aggressive mages. I used to run it on Taric, because his Q costs a MASSIVE amount of mana. But now that this rune is tied to landing spells, I can no longer effectively use it on Taric, because only his Dazzle (E) will trigger the stack. The same goes for any other character with very few aggressive spells, like Zilean, or champions who have auto-attack modifiers that won't trigger the rune. If anything, this change made the rune less accessible to champions, as it took it's universal appeal and bottlenecked it into mages and casters. Now champions like Taric don't have any kind of early mana management available to them, which leave a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth. Can we fix the trigger on the new Manaflow to somehow allow more champions to utilize it?

16 Comments

MalrothDragoniaApr 13, 20182 votes

Also, the point was to make it attractive to users who should want it but not so good that it was just taken on every single character that used mana. It's niche is better defined. You can still take it on Taric (it increases your mana pool by 250 which overall gives you more casts of your spells) it just is now more skill intensive to get full value out of it. Now you really need to hit those E's to make it valuable.

OleandervineApr 13, 20181 votes

Yes, but it's not really saving him mana anymore, because it takes forever for him to charge the thing, and he'll burn through his mana all the more faster until he gets 10 hits in. Plus, he's got only 1 damaging spell on a fairly decent CD at early levels, which means he has difficulty charging this rune.

And again, they claimed they were making this rune "more accessible" but they deliberately limited accessibility to champions who would have otherwise taken it but can't repeatedly land ability hits.

MalrothDragoniaApr 13, 20181 votes

I would go back and reread what Meddler said in his Gameplay Thoughts when the change was coming. Focusing on 'more accessible' is not the main point of the change. I'd say more accurately 'more accessible to those meant to be core users' and if you're spamming spells as Taric you're getting hit by way too many things way too early.

If mana management is a priority in how you play taric than you need to adjust your playstyle accordingly. Also, if you're hitting your E's you should also be making sure you get your autos in to reduce cd, as well as shielding or healing when you go in for a targon proc, which will also help you reduce the cd.

It's also a weak argument to say 'I used to not have to worry about mana, and now I do'. Mana gating is a part of game balance, and the entire reason the rune was changed was because it mitigated mana management too effectively to where every mana'd champion would take it, regardless if that champ should have been a core user. You need to take this change in its context. Also, as far as Riot talking about supporting viability, they've said it is much more important that a rune be usable on its core users than each change to also take into account outliers and rule breakers, such as when sterak's went melee only, taking it away from Urgot.

OleandervineApr 13, 20181 votes

You seem to be under some misconception that Taric is only healing himself in lane - he's healing his ADC. I can dodge skill shots all day, but if my ADC moves like a log stuck in a quicksand, am I not supposed to heal him?

As for their concepts of rune viability, they've been incredibly inconsistent with that, and it's been an ugly path. They've made half the runes compatible with AD or AP. They have an entire tree that favors only auto-based champions, and 3 other trees that have mixed results. They have so many classes in the game, and yet here they are wanting to specifically cater to more specific classes with certain runes. They're gutting rune flexibility and diversity with changes like this.

Creativity in rune building was part of the big push for the new runes system. Changes like this, that were good, versatile runes, now becoming super niche, aren't good. Especially so when we have many other runes that can have the versatility to serve many different classes and play styles. Comet, for instance. It's run on Camille, Sion, and then tons of mages. It's just a bitter pill to swallow that they seem to be picking and choosing what rune is niche and what runes are versatile.

MalrothDragoniaApr 13, 20181 votes

If you look a little closer at the way Runes are designed, they're not class specific, they're either tied to kits, tied to style, or are meant as a neutral choice (meant to be 'effective' but are generically less powerful).

Some runes scale (style), some are based on movement (kit), some are based on early-game snowballing (style), some trigger on cc (kit).

Thing like Aery, that are generic in the ability to proc/use them are there so that people who either aren't confident in the 'best' choice or feel unable to execute on the niche of that rune have an option that will in some way magnify their champion's power.

Let's take Aery. It will always provide some extra damage, and is still used on some champs that don't have the shield synergy, because extra damage is good, but it's not so much damage that every champ should choose it optimally, and those that consider it (like Urgot, panth, etc.) have other runes that may be as effective, but harder to execute, and choose aery bc they can more consistently make use of it.

In the case of manaflow band, it was generic enough (if you use mana you can use it) but didn't sacrifice enough power for how generically useful it was. So instead of gutting it and making it just, not work (there were PBE iterations that reduced the refund, reduced the mana gain) they redefined its niche so that it was still fairly generic (you can still just use it if you have mana) but better defined it by style (it's now styled as more of a scale-y rune). That way it could remain a powerful option for mana-gated champions without being 'must-choose' on any mana-using champion.

Hope that clears a bit up for you.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20181 votes

It's still fairly easier to use for most people.

Landing one spell every 15 seconds is doable on anyone. Is it easy on everyone? No. But it's reasonable.

And Riot has, in the past, been against free healing - it needs to be gated behind something, or have some drawback. if Taric can use his Q and avoid the massive mana cost in lane, and do so repeatedly, that's a problem.

Emerald FangApr 13, 20181 votes

30% lifesteal on every ADC and juggernaut :)

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20181 votes

Lifesteal on ADCs is locked behind items, or behind time and runes.

Juggernauts usually have their sustain locked behind landing some ability, which requires interaction.

OleandervineApr 13, 20181 votes

Taric's heal is locked behind charges, which make his healing abysmal at level 1. It's also locked behind a MASSIVE mana cost. His heal is possibly one of the most gated heals in the game.

And this is counteractive to the point I'm making - Riot claimed they were making the rune "more accessible." It was pretty damn accessible as it was, with only Lissandra being the problem child with it. With this change, they limited accessibility, especially for champions like Taric and Zilean, who can't spam spells every 15s and can't utilize like they once could.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 13, 20181 votes

Most champions used it shittily.

Sure, the use on it really early was cut back a bit, but it got improved for most champions.

VoraciousXApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Taric's heal is locked behind charges, which make his healing abysmal at level 1. It's also locked behind a MASSIVE mana cost. His heal is possibly one of the most gated heals in the game.

And this is counteractive to the point I'm making - Riot claimed they were making the rune "more accessible." It was pretty damn accessible as it was, with only Lissandra being the problem child with it. With this change, they limited accessibility, especially for champions like Taric and Zilean, who can't spam spells every 15s and can't utilize like they once could.

Did you just say Zilean can't spam spells every 15 seconds? He has a CDR REFUND ability....As for Taric, it doesn't make it any less accessible than before. He can still take it. You only need to land 10 Es to get it fully stacked. Simply removing mana costs every minute is a silly way to make a rune. This one does more and if you really don't like the way it works there's ALSO BISCUITS which increase your mana pool, and heal your mana. You get one every 3 minutes and I've never had a problem with mana with that rune. Hell if you want infinite mana sustain you could take both.

Now that I think about it...maybe I should try Ezreal or Ryze with both those runes...that's an extra 410 mana...

OleandervineApr 13, 20181 votes

Zilean can't spam spells in laning because he has high mana costs. If he does, he will OOM way too fast. At level 1, his Q costs 60, and his W costs 50. That's 170 mana for his full QWQ combo, which is a huge chunk of his laning mana pool before he can get a Tear going, if he's going Tear as a support.

Additionally, Taric is more than landing E. You have to use Q, W, and R as well, none of which target enemies. You need the mana mitigation on Qs more than anything, which you lose with the new Manaflow.

And biscuits are on a separate tree. They are on Inspiration, not Sorcery.

VoraciousXApr 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Zilean can't spam spells in laning because he has high mana costs. If he does, he will OOM way too fast. At level 1, his Q costs 60, and his W costs 50. That's 170 mana for his full QWQ combo, which is a huge chunk of his laning mana pool before he can get a Tear going, if he's going Tear as a support.

Additionally, Taric is more than landing E. You have to use Q, W, and R as well, none of which target enemies. You need the mana mitigation on Qs more than anything, which you lose with the new Manaflow.

And biscuits are on a separate tree. They are on Inspiration, not Sorcery.

Any going Sorcery/Inspiration or Inspiration/Sorcery is impossible? If you want mana you have to pay for it. Tanks have high mana costs for a reason. As for Zilean, again, biscuits are good mana, and so is manaflow band. You get 25 mana for landing a Q and his Q costs 60 mana. That's almost half back every 15 seconds. Landing 3 you get 75 mana over 45 seconds(which would mean 100 in 60 seconds). With old Manaflow band you'd get 60 back in 60 seconds. It's better overall.

Either way, if you want mana sustain in lane, biscuits are better than manaflow band anyways. It's always felt like the better option to me. If it's because you want something else in the sorcery tree, then you have to deal with landing your Es, and again, you only have to lane 10 Es for the full effect to be procced. I'm sure you should be able to land way more than 10 Es in one game. As for the whole Q, W, and R comment on Taric, yeah, every champion has to use those abilities, and not all hit enemy champions. Here's the thing though, old Mana flow Band only made one ability cost nothing. So nothing seems to have changed, and in fact it seems much better having more mana than just one ability without a mana cost(which will likely cost less than 250 mana, the extra mana you get overall, while also getting 1% more mana back over time).

Dead flag bluesApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's still fairly easier to use for most people.

Landing one spell every 15 seconds is doable on anyone. Is it easy on everyone? No. But it's reasonable.

And Riot has, in the past, been against free healing - it needs to be gated behind something, or have some drawback. if Taric can use his Q and avoid the massive mana cost in lane, and do so repeatedly, that's a problem.

Meanwhile Fleet Footwork

ViciousSummonerApr 13, 20181 votes

It's a pretty bad change tbh. It didn't even need to happen. All they did was make poking less favorable in bot lane which is pretty stupid seeing as everyone is crying about Janna, Raka, and Lulu for some reason. Every change that's been made so far that has targeted support has only made Janna, Raka, and Lulu much more favorable as opposed to other supports.

DraehlApr 13, 20181 votes

I'm not a fan of it. On Bard especially it was mostly useful for sustain before the first 1-2 backs. After that my mana issues were mostly gone due to poking less and having extra Mana/Mana regen from items. The new manaflow only really becomes useful after that point.

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