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Should Riot skip one or two new champ-releases in favor for Large-Scale Reworks?

SaltyToplaneGoat··18 votes·1,425 views

When it comes to full relaunches Riot has proven that they can take an old outdated piece of crap and make it ABSOLUTLEY AWESOME (or outrageous, depending on the champ).

However, there are still a lot of champs that need attention. Yorick is said to come after Taric and after that one more champ this year and after him it's probably Warwick considering the files that popped on the PBE some time ago.

But, there are still some champs that desperatly need such a relaunch: Nunu Galio Kayle Shaco Jax Fiddlesticks Evelynn Urgot . All these champions are for one extremly lacking in their lore, barely fulfill the fantasy they are supposed to deliver, are a thematic mess and have several gameplay issues with their current kit design that causes them to be extremly oppressive the moment they are only a tiny bit strong (something that is usually followed by a gutting through nerfs).

I'd rather delay some of the new champs to give those more attention, mostly because that when you are done with this list you can draw people from champ-up and make them work on more new awesome content.

Personally I think Kayle should get a rework the same time as Morgana (even tho she's not causing as many problems game health wise) - their kits should be in a design contrast or be based of the same idea but executed differently... (or maybe completly opposite kits? Would be even more interesting. If Morg has an AoE damage, why not give kayle an AoE heal? "Blessed Ground" or something...)

But what about you guys? Would you wait for new champs for the sake of reworked champs? I have no clue how to include a poll in this tho, so you have to write your answer down there ^^

36 Comments

Fjiordor5 votes

KayleGalio Urgot Fiddlesticks Evelynn Shaco Jax are fine IMO. They all have defined strengths and defined weaknesses, and relatively clear weaknesses. Some of them indeed could use some optical updates but i dont think they are too unhealthy game-play wise. Nunu needs to be made a bit more interactive but apart from that even he is fine.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

You just think they are fine because you either never see them or when you see them they are not on a gamebreaking point.

However, once these champions are only a little bit strong - really only a little - they become absolute beasts. That's why they are in a constantly undertuned state so they don't screw up the game.

Also, some of them really need some better lore apart from "MYSTERIOUS"...

Fjiordor2 votes

I play kayle and urgot on almost a weekly base. I used to play alot of Galio in season 4. And since i play since preseason 3 i also remember the time when fiddle and eve were viable in competitive. I do know those Champs and can definitely play all of them on an ok basis.

However, once these champions are only a little bit strong - really only a little - they become absolute beasts. That's why they are in a constantly undertuned state so they don't screw up the game.

What defines most of the champs you mentioned is constant damage. This means only a little increase in their damage is deemed to have an massive impact on their strength. But this is a balance problem not a design problem because All of them have counter play.

Also, some of them really need some better lore apart from "MYSTERIOUS"...

that applies only to Fiddlesticks Evelynn Jax

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Shaco as well... his lore is pretty much nonexistant...

Fjiordor1 votes

Most would say that death isn't funny. It isn't, unless you're Shaco - then it's hysterical. He is Valoran's first fully functioning homicidal comic; he jests until someone dies, and then he laughs. The figure that has come to be known as the Demon Jester is an enigma. No one fully agrees from whence he came, and Shaco never offers any details on his own. A popular belief is that Shaco is not of Runeterra - that he is a thing summoned from a dark and twisted world. Still others believe that he is the demonic manifestation of humanity's dark urges and therefore cannot be reasoned with. The most plausible belief is that Shaco is an assassin for hire, left to his own lunatic devices until his services are needed. Shaco certainly has proven himself to be a cunning individual, evading authorities at every turn who might seek him for questioning for some horrendous, law-breaking atrocity. While such scuttlebutt might reassure the native inhabitants of Valoran, it seems unimaginable that such a malfeasant figure is allowed to remain at large. Whatever the truth of his history might be, Shaco has joined the League of Legends for reasons only he knows. He is a terrifying figure, typically shunned by both his fellow champions and the media at large. Only the summoners in the Institute of War know why such a creature was allowed into the League, but most Runeterrans suspect it to be a means that allows the power that be to keep an eye on the ever-elusive Shaco. Unsurprisingly, this champion is popular in places where madness can openly reign, such as among the power-hungry summoners of Zaun and Noxus. Whatever you do, don't tell him you missed the punch line.

It is an ok lore. You have to keep in mind, that the lore volumes increased massively during the last 5 champ releases. For shaco being one of the MS Paint icon champs im ok with it.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

His lore is pretty much "Hey I'm a walking trope with no personality".

Also, the last paragraph is not even canon anymore now that the IoW no longer exists...

Rain Smurff4 votes

yes more quality less quantity

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stop Feeding Mid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IjAE9okN,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-04-12T14:53:04.656+0000)

yes more quality less quantity

Precisely the opposite of what the OP is asking for. Upsetting the jobs of several employees would undoubtedly lead to lower quality work all-around even if more champion updates happen to be completed.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

I would say yes . . . if they didn't royaly screw it up like the majority of their attempts often end up. Otherwise no, they should leave the champions mostly unchanged (aside from number nudging for balance) until they've got the time & resources to do it right the first time.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

The problem with their screwed up reworks was mostly that it were not full relaunches - even if the champ NEEDED a full relaunch. That's what pretty much ruined the Mordekaiser rework.

Personally I think the Reworks of Sion, Poppy and Taric are amazing and gangplank was awesome too...

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I agree sion & poppy were their best; but they nerfed them before they took off, making them quickly forgotten despite being fun to play as and against. Another problem I'd say is due to how often they rush out these pathetic attempts; like mordekaiser, skarner, sona, xerath, ext. They turnover so many so badly that they ones they actually put thought into are ignored.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

That's because sometimes a small fiddling around can't fix stuff. Sometimes you need to scrap most of a kit to build something awesome with the theme of a champion. But that takes ressources and time...

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Indeed; some of them synergize too well to keep in the same kit due to easy abusability (such as fizz & ekko), while others are awkwardly counter-intuitive to the point of barely functional without being overbearing (like fiddlesticks & aatrox). A thing that annoys me about riot is they entirely ignore the problem until a partial rework, ruining it for fans and other players (again mordekaiser & fiora for example). They used to try balancing by shifting some numbers around, but they stopped doing that in favor of double, and in a few cases triple nerfing/buffing. It's idiotic to expect something to smooth out, when so many parts are changed simultaneously (sejuani & sion again).

Fjiordor1 votes

FIora was a good rework if you ever seen the old fiora 1v5 pentakilling with 6 item 3077 . Shiver (she was even one of the reason tiamat became non stackable

FIora rework did what it should have done; making her into the high skill duelist she is supposed to be. She was just overtuned for quite some time. Now she is balanced.

The only freworks i did not like where mordekaiser and skarner.

Quepha3 votes

Someone asks this every few weeks.

Champion updates and new champions are performed by separate teams with separate goals and principles. Their progress is independent of each other and they can't move resources between the two.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Then why not take some people from Champ Design and move them to ChampUP?

I mean, a full relaunch and designing a entirely new champ is pretty much the same. With the latter you just have more thematic guidelines already, making ti even easier than coming up with something entirely new...

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IjAE9okN,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-04-12T15:45:43.867+0000)

Then why not take some people from Champ Design and move them to ChampUP?

I mean, a full relaunch and designing a entirely new champ is pretty much the same. With the latter you just have more thematic guidelines already, making ti even easier than coming up with something entirely new...

Because video games are part of the entertainment/arts industry, not manufacturing. You don't just take a character someone has been working on for months and tell the person working on it to go fix Yorick instead while they hand off his baby to an intern to finish. If you think new champions are producing problems for the game NOW, then what would happen if they were treated like you propose would blow your mind.

Furthermore, these people have been working with different goals in mind for months at the minimum. New champions do not need to worry about the sentiments of old players because there are no old players and champion update has been learning over the years that they need to keep their ideas inside the box in order to respect the old players they're trying to help out. Putting designers experienced with new champions on the champion update team means we'll have designers who have to learn all over again, the hard way, that players do not want Mordekaiser forced into a duo lane, Cassiopeia gaining arbitrary stacks that gate her AP ratios, or Skarner spawning rocks all over the rift for reasons that mystify everyone, including Skarner players.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well ofc you can let them finish whatever they are working on first . I'm not saying to skip the next two champs, but maybe one or two later this year...

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IjAE9okN,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T15:54:06.141+0000)

Well ofc you can let them finish whatever they are working on first . I'm not saying to skip the next two champs, but maybe one or two later this year...

I added about a paragraph to my post with more relevant information.

You don't want to skip the next two champions, probably not the one after that either since it might already be in the initial stages of pre-production right now, so you're talking about a payoff that doesn't show up until late-2017 at the earliest, and it's probably a pretty poor quality payoff since these designers are not super experienced with champion updates at the expense of having a massive period of time (8 months or more) with zero new champion releases.

That does not sound good to me.

PDE5 Inhib1 votes

Champion updates and new champions are performed by separate teams with separate goals and principles. Their progress is independent of each other and they can't move resources between the two.

Implying that rito couldn't allocate more sources to one over the other if they chose to?

I'm honestly not sure why people keep trying to make this argument.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhib,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IjAE9okN,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2016-04-13T03:42:16.069+0000)

Implying that rito couldn't allocate more sources to one over the other if they chose to?

I'm honestly not sure why people keep trying to make this argument.

They can, but not in any combination of instantly, easily, or effectively. Managers constantly make the mistake of assuming that creative work is just a product of how many people work on a project and how long they work, and trying to just pick up employees and move them from one box to another to try and make something go faster or turn out better is always disastrous to the projects they are coming from and going to.

There is a book called "The Mythical Man-Month" that is filled with several essays about management follies. Developers basically throw copies of the book at managers and future-managers to try and prevent massive wastes of time, money, and employee happiness.

Sniper 02 votes

I completely agree with this.

LankPants2 votes

I think Riot needs to go back over some of their recent work and do some patch-ups. Champs like Fiora Graves Kindred Illaoi TahmKench Ekko Corki and Gangplank . These champs are close to working but they all have at least one major flaw which really ruins the champ's hopes of ever being balanced. I also say this because they're all fairly easy wins, there's not that much work to do on any of them.

I also didn't mention Kalista in that group because I legitimately think she's the most recent champion who requires a full scale rework.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Most of them only have overtuned numbers tho. No one would complain about grave's tank steroid if it wasn't SO DAM STRONG. Seriously, he can get 120 AR and MR out of it... If Fiora wouldn't deal true damage no one would complain. Tahm got is numbers reduced already... I'm not sure about the others, but mostly it's a number/items thing, nothing I would call needy of a full relaunch of poppy/sion levels...

LankPants1 votes

If Fiora wouldn't deal true damage no one would complain.

This is actually the sort of level of work I was thinking, and I'd agree, none of them require a relaunch at that level, although Kalista's pretty damn close.

A lot of them do have a fatal flaw though, for example I don't think Tham can be allowed to be strong with his W in its current state.

For the most part I think these champs need 1-2 abilities modified each. I'd just like to see Riot actually acknowledge where they fell short on these champs and work to fix it.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

riot has stated in the past that they're all divided up and work on many different things at a time. so basically some art designer isn't going to work on champion balance.

hypothetically speaking, lets say some champion creator takes a week to pump out a new one. if you have the art designer drop what hes doing and try and help the champion creator make a new champion, it will not help make the new champion come out any faster.

riot has people specifically in charge of champion balance, and let me tell you, it doesn't matter, they're sticking to their already pre ordained "to do list"

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Nah, i was more thinking of it like this: currently you have two teams for New Champs and ChampUP (plus foundations who are also involved). So pretty much two and a half teams that require manpower and have similiar people working on.

However, once ChampUP has updated all the old champs they need WAY less reesources, allowing to reallocate those ressources to the Foundations and Champion Design team.

Also, I'm not saying that they should drop everything RIGHT NOW. They should finish the stuff they are working on right now and then leave some room for relaunches in fall/winter instead of working on a new champ there.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I'm entirely in favour of going a few months without new releases and Riot puts out reworks/relaunches. Revive old stories before creating new ones, and all that.

Though I don't entirely agree with your whole list. Most of these champions don't need anything more than Lore and Visual updates.

I think Kayle needs a rework; mostly since the only thing less fun than Guinsoos + Runaans combo is that person being unkillable for 2 seconds and having point-click slows...but her "Angel of Light/Righteousness" theme could be played up more.

Urgot's already slated for a full update. Fiddle just needs to have his clunkiness and archaic designs (like his passive) removed, I actually really like the current state of Jax, Shaco, and Nunu - even if the latter is ludicrously frustrating. I'm pretty sure Eve has permanently been "rework pending" for her entire existence, so we should be getting one at some point.

Narasimha1 votes

Most of the guys on your list are pretty fine. The only ones that stand out as needing a rework badly are Urgot and Evelynn. Galio and Shaco need minor changes, and the rest are mostly.

Pafos1 votes

I feel like riot is perfectly capable of releasing new champs and updating older champs, so I would have to disagree with you.

Also, I agree with others saying the champs you listed are fine and do no need a large scale rework.

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Balance and Champion Design are both separate divisions in RioT Game

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I'm not talking about Balance here.

Champ design has two teams. One for new champs and one called "ChampUP".

xBushx1 votes

ALOT to read if I read the other posts too so I hope this wasn't already stated.

Riot if you havent noticed has already toned down the creation of champs BIG time.

I have only played since season 3 but at that time champ realease was like every second patch.

So they already have slowed down and have been putting more focus on Visual Overhauls as well as updated champions Kits and reworks of the Poppy, Sion, Ryze level.

And now they are going back to the drawing board on Ryze too...so don 't despair they are hearing you...because the only way to keep this game relevant now with its 130 champ roster is to rework outdated ones. My guess would be we won't even see 3 more champs this year...MAYBE 2 and a bunch of reworks.

Darkxander1 votes

Jax Galio Kayle Nunu Fiddlesticks Shaco THEY DONT NEED REWORKS THEY ARE GOOD CHAMPIONS AS THEY ARE. They might be unbalanced to an extent but the do not need full reworks like Urgot and Eve need

Saianna1 votes

I just wonder if it is the same group responsible for champion updates and new champion creation?

If no, then less new champions relases won't help much. If yes, then we'd have to think very hard and carefully on who should receive update.

Those champs you've mentioned.. I kinda aree with Evelynn.. but that's about all, I'd be too scared of reworking anything else.

alfavhunter1 votes

Idk about reworking those champs but yes

There are some champs that badly need reworks

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