Shaco is now the highest winrate jungler on 6.24

dunder kill··46 votes·3,553 views

Sitting pretty at 55%

http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco

Higher than all the popular QQ champs likeShyvana LeeSin Vi Hecarim.

Time to stop denying he doesn't deserve those nerfs and maybe start thinking of ways how to fix him. People are throwing a big fit about Vayne's one second of "uncounterable" invisibility (please look into the difference between invisibility and camouflage) but shaco gets over 4 seconds of it that's attached to a flash that can be used to go over walls.

If Shaco's base damages are really that bad and he can still do what he does with itemization alone then it's apparent there is something fundamentally wrong with his kit because I don't see the items being a huge problem on other champs.

51 Comments

TequilaZombie8 votes

The thing is: He has a really easy way to proc item 3100 item 3146 item 1402 at the same time, resulting in an obnoxiously huge burst of damage.

Basicly his Q goes from 116+72,5% AP to 484.55+162.5% AP (with an extra 180 + 10% AP from Thunderlords - 664.55 + 172.5% AP). And this happens instantly. With his core AP build item 1402 item 3146 item 3100 item 3089 item 3135 he gets 567 AP. This translates to a 1643 damage burst happening instantly out of stealth on his Q alone. Without Thunderlords, Lich Bane, Runic Echoes, and Gunblade damaging passives/actives, he'd deal 527 damage on his Q.

Dealing more damage with his Q means that his E will hit harder due to E's 8% missing health damage.

Shaco's numbers are not the problem, the items are not the problem, the main problem is how easy it is for Shaco to use those items to their fullest potential.

Shaco was always an item abuser (with Q+P+IE Statik Shiv would hit for a whooping 388 damage before his rework). The only problem is that AP items are much more abusable than AD items because, in theory, they would be a bit harder and conditional to apply.

EDIT:

PS: I'm a complaining Shaco main, but not due to Shaco being weak, but due to how much his playstyle was artificially changed and how one dimensional he became.

Sire Hippington1 votes

he had a really easy time proccing those befor the assasins update, and many other melee-aps have a just as easy way proccing them without beeing an issue. Befor the rework, shaco could abuse them actually even better because his old passive would work for the damage of those items aswell.

Nothing about those items changed aswell. The issue is not in the items, but shaco. 4.5sec invisibillity(no longer counterable) is simply to long after the vision changes. Missing health damage on his E makes it much easier for him to pick up those early kills by just popping out of nowhere and finishing off a low health laner. The AP ratio on Q increased his overall burst with ap-builts despite no longer getting the passive bonus on item active and E. Abd what most overlook: The increased box health and the overall changes to the jungle allow AP- shaco to clear the jungle much more effective than befor, allowing him to reach his item breakpoints far more reliably. AP-shaco always was a bastard, but befor he hardly was used on the rift because he was pretty unreliable, as his main gold income were kills since jungler clear and farming lanes both were kinda crap on AP. Now he's even more bullshit AND he more reliably gets the needed gold by farming the jungle.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Ok, a few points that are wrong there:

1- His passive, Backstab, never worked with items. It actually only worked with his Q, Auto attacks, and E. Not even his boxes and clone explosion worked with it (although clone's autos did), let alone items. The only item it had a meaningful interaction with it was IE, as the crit damage would be applied to his AA's and consequentially increase the 50% bonus crit damage by it's 20%. Lich Bane, Gunblade, Protobelt, Smite, Ignite, Luden's, and any other items or summoners that dealt damage never received a bonus from Backstab. At the very least not in this last season. Might have been different in season 5, but I'm almost sure it wasn't.

2- His E has 5 base damage at level 1 and 3% missing health (which is increased with levels rather than ranks), as well as scalling with 75% of total AD. This means that, up until level 11 or so, in which it has about 2-3 ranks and the 8% missing health, the Shiv is basicly a weaker auto attack, specially since targets have a smaller health pool to be used with the % missing health. Unless Shaco is also packing ignite, he won't be getting that many early kills with this skill alone. With some quick maths, it should be dealing about 15-25 extra damage early game (depending on runes and masteries) to a target with 700 missing health. If you are missing 700 hp on the early game and is not recalling under your tier 2 turret, you're asking to die.

3- Ap Shaco still has some rather bad clears due to his lack of AoE. The boxes in the early game are not that much tankier and don't make such a huge difference. However there is no denying that the new jungle helps AP Shaco, both due to easier buffs and due to more gold and XP.

4-

he had a really easy time proccing those befor the assasins update, and many other melee-aps have a just as easy way proccing them without beeing an issue.

See, before the update he had only a 120% AP Scaling on his kit with his E backstab. After it, he was given a 72,5% on his Q Backstab and a 90% on his E, granting him 162,5% AP Scaling on his burst, making AP Shaco much stronger. He basicly gained a stronger Lich Bane on his Q after the rework. This makes a whole world of difference when you lack sustained damage and NEEDS to one-shot your target or die.


All in all, AP Shaco now does what AD Shaco was about, deleting a single target quickly, but faster. In exchange, his DPS is miserable.

Linna Excel8 votes

Shaco having a high winrate is a clear sign of balance issues.

Meep Man1 votes

Yeah... it is...

SaladSavior2151 votes

wasn't he fine last season? why did they have to gut him. did u know that shaco is used 6.25% of the time or something like that? also maybe if Riot could actually nerf rengar that would be great, they only took 20 damage of rengar q and other ability while they took 200 off already weak shaco's ult.

LankPants3 votes

6.17% makes him the 8th most popular jungle. The mean playrate for junglers is about 4% and the median is 2.24%. There's really no argument against Shaco being a problem, at least before the hotfix, he has a well above average pick rate and a very high win rate.

Personally I still think he's less problematic than Lee Sin, because Lee is picked 5.5x more than Shaco and has a significant banrate on top of that. No champ should be picked or banned in over 50% of games and this is the biggest problem in League right now.

SaladSavior2151 votes

so are you saying this patch sucks? or are you saying shaco is OP and need to be nerfed?

i personally think this patch is fucking trash. along with the whole season 7 itself. riot has power issues.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Imo Shaco deserved the nerfs. He was completely brainless with the AP build. Riot either failed to take those juice AP Items+ TLD in consideration (they add a whole 100% AP and about 580 Base damage to his Q), or wanted to see what would happen when Shaco players found out about them.

With that said, the rework was shit. He had a fairly decent win rate (52,1%) and his playerbase had an average of 189 games (second higher in the jungle and 6 higher in the whole game, champion-wise being the 4th). I mean, over 55% of his player base had 125+ games.

SaladSavior2151 votes

this feels like deja vu for some reason. anyways, are you talking about he needed a nerf before preseason patch? or after the preseason patch?

stop saying saying shaco was like the #1 candidate for being nerfed because zed needs to be nerfed and yasuo does too, along with that fuck boy rengar. oh wait he got a nerf last week i think let me show u it.

" Rengar is having a bit too much success at starting the snowball, so his base damages need to take a hit."

Q - Savagery DAMAGE PER STRIKE 40/60/80/100/120 ⇒ 35/55/75/95/115 E - Bola Strike DAMAGE 50/100/150/200/250 ⇒ 50/95/140/185/230

now lets compare that to shaco's nerfs.

"Shaco’s burst damage is too high - especially AP Shaco's. It’s one thing to have a high-damage combo, but Shaco’s ability to murder from stealth doesn’t give opponents enough time to react."

Q - Deceive RATIO 0.5 ability power ⇒ 0.4 ability power E - Two-Shiv Poison ABILITY POWER RATIO 0.9 ability power ⇒ 0.75 ability power ATTACK DAMAGE RATIO 0.85 bonus attack damage ⇒ 0.75 bonus attack damage R - Hallucinate CLONE EXPLOSION DAMAGE 300/450/600 ⇒ 200/300/400.

k, point made of this bullshit riot is doing?

TequilaZombie1 votes

Lots of different subject. Shaco was not the public enemy number 1, nor the one who needed the biggest nerf, but the nerfs he received were, for it's biggest parts, deserved. AP Shaco was brainless. And I'm a fucking Shaco main since season 2.

stop saying saying shaco was like the #1 candidate for being nerfed because zed needs to be nerfed and yasuo does too, along with that fuck boy rengar.

Never said the first part, never denied the second. Don't put words in my mouth. Or in my fingers. In my post? How the fuck does this expression works online?? What I will say is this:

Getting instagibbed by a Shaco felt worse than being instagibbed by a Rengar, at least Rengar gave a big "I'm about to fuck you up" warning (and you can Flash/Blink away to avoid his Q+E Damage and be hit "only" by the crit). With that said, Rengar's nerfs were far too light handed and he could have a nice little session with the Nerf Bat.

are you talking about he needed a nerf before preseason patch? or after the preseason patch?

After the patch. Although I wouldn't be mad with a small number reduction to his pre-6.22 version instead. It would have been better than this utter distortion of a champion that we have now.

Q - Deceive RATIO 0.5 ability power ⇒ 0.4 ability power E - Two-Shiv Poison ABILITY POWER RATIO 0.9 ability power ⇒ 0.75 ability power ATTACK DAMAGE RATIO 0.85 bonus attack damage ⇒ 0.75 bonus attack damage R - Hallucinate CLONE EXPLOSION DAMAGE 300/450/600 ⇒ 200/300/400.

Deserved nerfs to his AP build (with his ult explosion being arguable). Rengar, Zed, Yas, and many others deserve a nerf this big as well. And at this point I don't even care about what they are doing to his AD build, it is shit in anyway you look at it.

SaladSavior2151 votes

his ult is a meme, his q sucks, his e doesnt do damage, his w cant stack. and you say "small" number reduction to his pre season 6.22, just stop this is making me sick.

TequilaZombie1 votes

His ult is a decent objective control tool, his Q is still very strong for the AP build, his E with the new AP build does about 570 damage after resistances, his W is still useful if you know how to position them to have at least 2 hiting the same target at once.

I have no clue about the experience you had with pre-rework Shaco, but I know I could consistently win games with him if I had at least one team mate on Discord based on cheese strategies alone, let alone when playing with a full team. That's why I say a small number reduction.

If you think a small nerf would ruin him, you're either over reacting or you had no clue on how to play the champion.

SaladSavior2151 votes

even tho you have lost most of your shaco games..... no offence.

good k/d/a but feeder team i'm guessing

TequilaZombie1 votes

Shaco is not really that great on Bronze when playing solo. He does require some basic coordination to pull off, at least for the play style I enjoyed. Champions like Gnar, Naut, Darius or other durable targets that must be focused are much better for such scenario. Or at least were in season 6.

Last I checked, I had about 62-64% winrate with Shaco once I had a duo (and a 80% chance fo getting FB for me or my mid with my no box lv 2 cheese).

Jeddy0176 votes

The thing with Shaco is that he needs a full VGU (think Yorick or Poppy), Akali needs one too. The assassin update just gave them some, in the meantime, "love" because their VGUs likely won't happen for a while.

TequilaZombie12 votes

The assassin update just gave them some, in the meantime, "love" because their VGUs likely won't happen for a while.

The BDSM sort of love right? Tie him up and spank the shit out of him.

Jeddy0172 votes

I'll let Shaco players decide what type of love it was.

TequilaZombie6 votes

Ohh this one is easy! It was a hate fuck.

Next question?

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

HAHAHHAHAHAH

Sire Hippington6 votes

After the vision changes(which were perfectly fine), invisibillity just shouldn't last longer than ~2sec. Invisibillity should be a jukeing tool, allowing to loose focus and reposition. It shouldn't be there to avoid wards or gett an free pass into the backline from two screens away. Thats what camouflage is for. With a 4.5sec stealth, shaco will be really hard to balance in a healthy way. As soon as his burst is high enough, there is ~~little ~~nothing you can do to protect your backline vs him, and if it's to low, shaco just pops out of stealth for his own funeral.

Also, ap-shaco simply is a horrible design, he never should be a thing. Nukeing someone for over half his health with a ranged point n click from out of a (4.5sec)stealth shouldn't be a thing. That's exactly why people complain about vayne, chunking you out with a single AA from stealth, and she only has 1sec stealth and con't step over nearly all walls on the rift. And don't get me started on the boxes, it's even worse than temmo shrooms...

Shaco my BFF1 votes

cough red trinket, control ward cough

Also, Shaco's Q has ~12 second cooldown at max CDR. Vayne goes stealth every 2 seconds. Not to mention how much more raw damage output Vayne has.

Problem with Shaco is that Riot removed all base stats from him. 5 base AD on E rank 1 for example, and made everything scale with items and missing health.

Sire Hippington1 votes

i'm not saying that shaco will be in a fine spot with those nerfs, i'm saying he will need some more intense work, or he will either be opressive or gutted. Also, for the 100th time, red trinket and control ward do NOT reveal invisibillity, they reveal camouflage, which is NOT what shaco has.

dunder kill3 votes

cough red trinket, control ward cough

You need to look into the difference between Invisibility and camouflage lol

Shaco my BFF1 votes

I meant the boxes. Guy was QQ'ing about boxes and Teemo mushrooms. Those two items make both useless.

super rover1 votes

all i am asking if bring back the fucking pink ward

metabuser3 votes

Right now, I'm complaining about AD Shaco nerfs. They nerfed AD and AP Shaco. AD Shaco right now, after these nerfs will be terrible. AP Shaco was pretty strong before tho

Big Lincoln2 votes

no there isn't.

AP shaco is stacking ratio items; his first 3 items are runic, gunblade and lich bane, which adds a ton of extra damage to his combo. the problem is itemization, not the kit himself

also the fact he procs runic on backstab now (all spell effects, actually, but he doesn't build rylai or liandry) which lowers his burst time by a lot; he doesn't need to E to proc runic's, and since all that damage gets unloaded without using it, he can save it to maximize the execute damage

Linna Excel10 votes

Items shouldn't be nerfed when only one champion is abusing them.

Big Lincoln2 votes

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's why he's good right now. There's not any inherent issue with his kit itself.

DarkRitual1 votes

His kit is partly the issue too. Anyone can buy them and deal that damage. Not just anyone can walk up to someone literally unnoticed and do it.

It's a combination of the strengths of the items and how easily he is able to use them.

dunder kill5 votes

There has to be something inherently wrong with his kit if it's not base damages and not the items either

Big Lincoln3 votes

it's his synergy with those items. Shaco himself has one of the healthier and more unique kits in the game.

Shaco's ratios on their own are very lackluster. It's not until he builds those extra ratios that his burst starts to get a little heavy-handed.

Nerfing his AD ratio and his ultimate's base damage (which defies Riot's reasoning of his burst from stealth being too high; he doesn't use his ult for burst combo.) are completely unnecessary and just neuter an already crippled build (his AD) while also hampering every other potential build besides AP.

dunder kill5 votes

4.5 seconds of uncounterable stealth is not healthy, sorry.

SaladSavior2152 votes

wait. early game or late game? early game if shaco max his q, say good bye to all your damage cause you wont have any.

Big Lincoln3 votes

riot removing pink wards is not shaco's fault, sorry

dunder kill2 votes

It does still affect shaco, sorry

Lord Malpercio2 votes

{quoted}

It does still affect shaco, sorry

As a shaco main, green wards are more threatening to me than pink wards. I always laughed at people who bought pinks.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Kappa.

Sire Hippington1 votes

And SS+IE Existing isn't Vaynes fault, minions existing and allowing for dashes isn't Yasuos fault...

If you don't look at a champion at the context of the current gamestate, you're just ignorant, sorry.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

there are a lot of champions giving true sight

same way camille is balanced because her ulti is hard countered by knock backs

Shaco also can't do shit against sweeper but that's because you're bad at the game you don't know this

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

LeeSin's Dragon Rage

TequilaZombie1 votes

It is when you look at his kit.

He needs to be at melee to do anything, he's easily kited, squishy and has no escapes if he goes for a kill. A strong engage is balanced.

What is not balanced is his currently ability to instantly deal about 1900 damage AFTER RESISTANCES with his Q+E+Gunblade alone.

Kharn Skyshatter1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Iezxgp5A,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-12-14T19:23:43.124+0000)

Items shouldn't be nerfed when only one champion is abusing them.

Tell that to Riot with everything Ezreal touches.

aspects11 votes

if they reduce his ap, give him some ad

bad arcade kitty1 votes

they hotfixed his ap scales mid patch, prepare for his winrate to drop

Quantum Lotus1 votes

High win rate but not many people play him. More experienced shaco players stick to him and get his win rate that high. Did you not see his play rate?

dunder kill2 votes

He has a 50% winrate on players with 1-5 games on him (brand new to the champ) and 60% on experienced shaco players. You're not helping your case here

Hyperiön1 votes

A 6% play rate is pretty good considering about half are 1% or less.

Zedex1 votes

Hey, who would have thought that stealth champions would become really strong if Riot decided to just upheave their stealth mechanics in a single patch.

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