Only 2 roles matter.

The thigh guy·Jan 2, 2019·20 votes·9,693 views

Games are decided almost entirely by mid and jungle now.

Bot lane has zero agency on whether or not they win their lane.

Top is auto ganked at level 2. So they have little to no say in the game.

The old solution to this used to be sitting under turret during roams. But that doesn’t work anymore due to turret Agro being trash and turrets doing little to no damage.

Mid isn’t decided by any outside factors outside of a 5 man raid on mid, which doesn’t happen. Due to them having 7 different escape routes compared to 1-2 in the other lanes.

I don’t know the solution outside of maybe making turrets deal ALOT more damage and fixing the cpu for turret Agro on champions.

67 Comments

Hayaishi2Jan 2, 201911 votes

Jungle has been OP for like 3 seasons now.

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20195 votes

Maybe for a bigger half of a season 8. Until 8.11 ADCs and supps were "the" OP roles.

Hayaishi2Jan 2, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie3b1zV9,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-02T15:50:50.765+0000)

Maybe for a bigger half of a season 8. Until 8.11 ADCs and supps were "the" OP roles.

It's been OP since season 6. Yes bot lane was stupid for awhile but the JG's agency has been way too high for years now.

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20192 votes

Nahh, jungle had always high agency in early game. That's just the nature of the role, jungle just is impossible to be without agency, and lanes will always have it lower than laners. Jungle had the agency in s6, s7, s8 etc, but it didn't matter as hard as it matters now. Back in the days jungler could do his stuff in early, but you still could turtle and hope that botlane will carry.

Currently it's much easier to end games, and that's why jungle agency suddenly matters more now. It didn't really change (scuttle crab changes didn't even touch the agency of at least 50% of the junglers).

MimrJan 2, 20195 votes

{quoted}

It's been OP since season 6. Yes bot lane was stupid for awhile but the JG's agency has been way too high for years now.

Jungle wouldn't have such agency if not such an alarming percentage of laners would play like monkeys during laning phase.

HügöJan 2, 20192 votes

Wow mate you can't tell the truth about those epic laners.

Rock MDJan 3, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Jungle wouldn't have such agency if not such an alarming percentage of laners would play like monkeys during laning phase.

"Jungle is only good because everyone else is stupid."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

MimrJan 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie3b1zV9,comment-id=00030000000000010001,timestamp=2019-01-03T01:10:53.616+0000)

"Jungle is only good because everyone else is stupid."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

It's the truth though. How many people in your average game pay any attention to wave management and positioning in lane in order to make ganking as hard as possible? Not a lot. Sure, people ward decently enough but wards aren't going to save you when you're pushed up to their tower and that 4/0/2 Kha'Zix decides to pay your lane a visit.

Rock MDJan 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's the truth though. How many people in your average game pay any attention to wave management and positioning in lane in order to make ganking as hard as possible? Not a lot. Sure, people ward decently enough but wards aren't going to save you when you're pushed up to their tower and that 4/0/2 Kha'Zix decides to pay your lane a visit.

There's only 1 or 2 ways to make ganking near impossible. You either take L's and sit under tower while they shove into you, or you freeze.

Neither of those generate pressure. Laners can leave to gank you in the jungle or roam on your other lanes.

Laners, at some point, need to push their waves to make sure they don't fall behind and then can prevent their opponent from running all over the map.

But what you're suggesting is that that's okay. Everyone should sit back, stay alive, and let you carry. After all, you can eat all that pressure and still win games right?

Truth be told, odds are you can't. You'll get jumped on and invaded and then you'll flame the laners for not being there to help you out even though they're doing their best to not die to ganks.

Junglers are so arrogant.

JuiceJan 2, 201910 votes

Jungle just has way too much agency in this game - here's how 90% of the games go nowadays

-Jungler ganks top and creates a lead for himself -Jungler ganks mid and creates a lead for the mid laner -Jungler and mid laner perma camp bot lane and get fed out of their ass and win the game

Red smite needs to be removed, Scuttle crab should go back to giving 40g, overall jungle EXP should be nerfed, damage on the jungle camps increased, gold decreased, respawn decreased so they farm their camps more than they gank

Remove all the plants, cause let's face it, 90% of the time they're there for the junglers only anyway

Remove red buff health regen

That should remove some of the agency from the omnipresent junglers

BLIGHTBRINGERJan 2, 20194 votes

Remove red buff health regen

I think both Blue and Red Buff would be fine if they simply, just gave Health and Mana Regen. You can't really play around with the Red Buff Slow, and the Blue Buff CDR Buff just ensures that sometimes they have an advantage against you.

I miss the removed/previous bonuses each monsters gave. One of them giving DoT Damage against other jungle monsters, others giving vision in jungle, etc...

Jungle itself doens't really feel interesting to play because you're basically just farming to gain gold and xp, and then permanently gank any lane when you don't feel like those 2 last remaining monster camps will make a difference.

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20195 votes

Even if jungle is OP, your proposed "changes" will just leave role in the biggest gutter of all times. Seriously, you want to nerf EVERYTHING about jungle without any compensation, and you claim that it will remove only "some" of the agency. No, it would remove jungler from the game, and just make them again a second, worse support.

What can be seriously done about jungle? Removal of red smite is fine, it's actually not needed right now. Camps should give more exp but be harder to take. Monsters like Big wolf/raptor could use some health buffs. Scuttle is kind of controversial, but by now i like it. It creates interaction between junglers, and unless you're playing idk, Zac vs Udyr you can get reliably one of the starting two.

So... if you want to "fix" or nerf jungle, give us a REAL solution instead of biased gutting of everything about the role.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 2, 20194 votes

The game simply does not work when jungle has that much agency and carry potential. It's a supportive role for a reason. And it's actually funny how jungle pretty much lost all it's skill while simoultaneously getting more and more powerful.

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20193 votes

How the game doesn't work? Im sure that game works pretty good currently. For sure better than pre 8.11.

Actually, it's not a supportive role anymore. It was an supportive role in s1-s3, but not due to design, due to jungle income being terribly low. Since s4 jungle is as carry role as laners.

And.. how jungle lost all it's skill? If you'll come up with the timers only i'll laugh at you.

JuiceJan 2, 20192 votes

When you sue someone you always go for highest possible amount knowing you will probably settle for less, that's how you bargain in the court.

While I don't think jungle would be "in the biggest gutter of all times" if these changes went through, I know Riot would never ever implement them all, at least not at once, so I'd settle with half of those personally.

Red smite is one of the key reasons jungle is broken, it's by far the biggest offender - it's ignite and exhaust in one on a 30 second cooldown that allows junglers to outduel anyone despite being able to be anywhere on the map at any given moment. Junglers should be a bit more support-ish and not bruteforcing fights with the click of a summoner spell.

Scuttle is doing more harm to junglers than good, crowding out picks and limiting strategic options.

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20193 votes

We aren't in the court, we're on a boards. If you want to discuss anything problematic, then talk rational about it, instead of going full hyperbole.

If all the proposed changes would go through, it's 100% the biggest gutter of all times. Half of them would be a decent gutting too, i don't know if you want to make the role fair, or if you want to completely relegate it to Seju/Zac/J4 with knights vow and locket.

Red smite is now unnecessary, i agree. But at the other hand, there's no good reason for junglers to be unable to fight people. They don't have to beat everyone 1 vs 1, but being lvl 4 against lvl 6 laners doesn't give any good options either (it was like that pre season 6 if i remember correctly). Junglers aren't a pure supportive role since season 3. They're kind of jack of all trades master of none (unless they ridiculously snowball). Junglers shouldn't be again the second supports.

Scuttle would be less punishing for weaker junglers if it wouldn't have the defenses passive. Currently if you're playing Zac or Seju, you have to blow your CC on crab and then be a free meat for anyone who comes. If Zac could keep his E to clear scuttle in a decent time, then it would be less punishing than it is.

RekseeJan 2, 20192 votes

I like the plants, even though they are mostly targeted at junglers the bot laners can take a small risk and get a honey fruit. And in the late game blast cones are nice tools for escape.

JeaneGreeneJan 2, 20197 votes

The issue with jungle is that it is too safe and easy. Because so many champions have built in systems to help them live (and usually at 75%-100% max hp) the jungle becomes a danger free farm fest.

HügöJan 2, 20196 votes

Oh man if laners could just gank like a jungler this would be awesome, hmmm lets give this new strat a name ..... hmm ..... maybe roam is a great name.

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐJan 3, 20195 votes

#RevertScuttleCrap

Dr DogJan 2, 20194 votes

all roles that arent adc can carry well atm, top has people like irelia and jax that can shit stomp, support is the main source of bot lane dmg now and mage supports have a lot of carry potential and inflated wr's rn, mid lane has always been a hard carry role so thats nothing new and jg has objective control, map pressure, and the inherent power to shift a lane and bully out the enemy jg heavily affecting enemy objective control and map pressure which is a big lead to have as it should be

LhuhzJan 2, 20192 votes

Irelia top is mediocre at best, she's not a problem up there

Dr DogJan 2, 20191 votes

never ment she was broken, shes just a good example of a top laner that can hardcarry, if i was gonna mention broken top laners i woulda thrown Cassiopeia in there

LhuhzJan 2, 20191 votes

Cassio is just op wherever she goes right now, her W needs a serious nerf.

Dr DogJan 2, 20191 votes

true but top lane is her main issue because of how worthless she makes anyone with low mobility

LhuhzJan 2, 20191 votes

Actually, check pickrates and winrates by lanes, she's more problematic on Botlane against adcs than on Toplane but anyway we agree that she's a problem so there's no need to debate more in which lane she's more busted.

Dr DogJan 2, 20191 votes

true, i ment top being an issue because of lack of counterplay tho not actually how powerful she is in the role

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20195 votes

ADCs can carry too, it's just not as easy as it was pre 8.11

Dr DogJan 2, 20194 votes

true but i ment it as more of adcs being the least likely role to carry atm

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20193 votes

Okay, now it's clear, and i agree.

Von BrohenheimJan 2, 20194 votes

If top is auto ganked at level 2, why not kill the jungler? Like, if there's a guaranteed 2v2 every game at the same exact time, and jungler is the most important role... but you kill the most important role on their team so yours can steal their jungle and get ahead... Doesn't that make the top laner that can kill the jungler and still teleport back to avoid losing cs more influential?

Sure, the jungler is more influential the more early game matters. That's for certain. But zero agency? Stop it hash. Top lane agency amounts to killing junglers off a failed gank, killing junglers trying to scuttle, hard shoving and stealing scuttle, or just winning lane and forcing them to stop you from taking tower.

Top lane agency isn't zero. It just forces you to do something more than sit there and 1v1 your lane opponent over and over, even if that's smacking their tower for plates.

The thigh guyJan 2, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Brohenheim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie3b1zV9,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-01-02T18:57:09.632+0000)

If top is auto ganked at level 2, why not kill the jungler? Like, if there's a guaranteed 2v2 every game at the same exact time, and jungler is the most important role... but you kill the most important role on their team so yours can steal their jungle and get ahead... Doesn't that make the top laner that can kill the jungler and still teleport back to avoid losing cs more influential?

Sure, the jungler is more influential the more early game matters. That's for certain. But zero agency? Stop it hash. Top lane agency amounts to killing junglers off a failed gank, killing junglers trying to scuttle, hard shoving and stealing scuttle, or just winning lane and forcing them to stop you from taking tower.

Top lane agency isn't zero. It just forces you to do something more than sit there and 1v1 your lane opponent over and over, even if that's smacking their tower for plates.

Why not kill the jungler? That’s like saying “oh 88% winrate kassadin was balanced, you just have to kill him”

It’s not that simple. And unfortunately no, both junglers don’t gank top at the same time due to the map being mirrored and red side having a distinct disadvantage. This leads to blue side jungler being forced to invade and steal some camps before ganking bot. So 5-7 minutes into the game top and bot are being influenced by both junglers. Now add into the fact that midlaners begin roaming around level 6 due do ultimates (sometimes sooner if playing talon or sol). That’s just endless pressure being put onto these two lanes who can’t do the same to influence the other side without burning MASSIVE cooldowns like teleport. Which then leads into enemy taking first tower gold.

Let’s look at bot as an example. So level 6 comes in and they are slightly ahead of the other teams bot. The jungler and midlane roam down. So there are 4 people in botlane. Now. They can’t fight them obviously so they have to back to their turret. But with how little damage turrets do they aren’t safe there and will get dove. So they have to concede the turret.

With perfect play they still lost a turret.

That’s the agency of botlane right now. Even with perfect play you still lose your turret. Because midlane and jungle decide the game.

Von BrohenheimJan 2, 20194 votes

No, saying "Top is auto ganked at level 2. So they have little to no say in the game." is like saying “oh 88% winrate kassadin was balanced, you just have to kill him.”

You're moving the goalposts and then changing the subject to bot lane.

Also, if ganks are such low risk-high reward choices, your example blue side jungler is an idiot for not ganking mid while red side ganks top. "Forced" to invade? Who's forcing them, the extreme claim you're struggling to make?

The thigh guyJan 2, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Brohenheim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie3b1zV9,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T19:34:22.974+0000)

No, saying "Top is auto ganked at level 2. So they have little to no say in the game." is like saying “oh 88% winrate kassadin was balanced, you just have to kill him.”

You're moving the goalposts and then changing the subject to bot lane.

Also, if ganks are such low risk-high reward choices, your example blue side jungler is an idiot for not ganking mid while red side ganks top. "Forced" to invade? Who's forcing them, the extreme claim you're struggling to make?

What do you mean who’s forcing them? The enemy jungler and top laner are. Because after the gank top (which blue side does due to tribrush location) the enemy jungler moves in to Invade your camps. If you try to contest with your top laner dead, or forced to recall you will be jumped on 2v1 by their toplane and their jungler will hit you at your buff camp.

So you are forced to invade their bot side jungle and gank bot lane, due to positioning of the tribrush again.

Which lane gets hard fucked is decided by the side of the map.

Blue side, bot gets fucked Red side, top gets fucked.

And no. I’m not moving the goal post, because they are going through the SAME THING.

3v1 top. You can’t sit under turret while they gank because turrets do nothing. They are ambient gold.

So with perfect play top you still lose your turret.

Bot and top are in the exact same situation of “mid and jungle decide their fate”.

And no the argument of “just play better” does not apply because yeah, you “can” win a 3v1 or a 2v4. But 90+% of the time you won’t. The exception is not the average.

Von BrohenheimJan 2, 20191 votes

The Bermuda Tribush, of course. Not even sure how to respond to the memes. Turrets are ambient gold, and there are 3 people sitting in your lane fighting over farm all the time. Clearly, this is all being caused by the Bermuda Tribush's magical ability to jam radar and sonar.

Want to see another magic trick?

Go queue up a game as Jungle. Get blue side, because red side is just gank top ez win. Lock in Jax, I know you play him. Switch your keystone to Press the Attack. Don't forget Smite!

OK, now level your E and go ward river, and gently ping your bot lane a couple times to leash Red. Kill your red buff. Level Q.

Go walk toward mid and ping "On My Way!". Either go through the bush if they're pushed in, or walk through the little alley near your opponent's blue buff. Press E to start spinning your lamppost, killer!

Doing great so far. Now walk up behind the enemy mid laner, use Q to leap on them, and press E again to stun! GOTTEM!

You just made their Flash/Health bar disappear! WOW! Magic!

The thigh guyJan 2, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Brohenheim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie3b1zV9,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T20:51:02.884+0000)

The Bermuda Tribush, of course. Not even sure how to respond to the memes. Turrets are ambient gold, and there are 3 people sitting in your lane fighting over farm all the time. Clearly, this is all being caused by the Bermuda Tribush's magical ability to jam radar and sonar.

Want to see another magic trick?

Go queue up a game as Jungle. Get blue side, because red side is just gank top ez win. Lock in Jax, I know you play him. Switch your keystone to Press the Attack. Don't forget Smite!

OK, now level your E and go ward river, and gently ping your bot lane a couple times to leash Red. Kill your red buff. Level Q.

Go walk toward mid and ping "On My Way!". Either go through the bush if they're pushed in, or walk through the little alley near your opponent's blue buff. Press E to start spinning your lamppost, killer!

Doing great so far. Now walk up behind the enemy mid laner, use Q to leap on them, and press E again to stun! GOTTEM!

You just made their Flash/Health bar disappear! WOW! Magic!

sigh mid lane has 7 escape routes. Ganking a talon or anyone with any bit of mobility does not work.

And no. It’s not tribrush itself that makes the ganks work you nit. It’s the fact that going through it gets you BEHIND the enemy. Between them and the turret.

Top and bot on the sides I stated have ONE escape route. To the turret. If you are between them and the turret (which going through tribrush puts you) their escape is endlessly harder. Let’s say you did your little strategy. You do red buff witha leash and go mid. Congrats. You got spotted on the scuttle ward everyone puts down at 1:35. Your gank failed before it even started if the mid has any map awareness

And not once did I say “three people sit in lane fighting over farm” jungle clears camps. It’s called vertical jungling. And mid laners almost always have the waveclear to roam constantly.

Von BrohenheimJan 2, 20191 votes

The mid doesn't have any map awareness. They're playing with you, who can't ward the tribush he knows he's getting ganked from, and can't see anything from the jungle exits his mid warded.

By the way, if you can find a Talon who takes E at level 2 you don't need to gank, they've already lost lane.

"3v1 top. You can’t sit under turret while they gank because turrets do nothing. They are ambient gold." "And no the argument of “just play better” does not apply because yeah, you “can” win a 3v1 or a 2v4."

Schrödinger's jungler is simultaneously ganking you, counterjungling, clearing their own jungle, and nowhere at all. What can I say dude? I guess you just have to uninstall.

The thigh guyJan 2, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Von Brohenheim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ie3b1zV9,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T21:41:09.035+0000)

The mid doesn't have any map awareness. They're playing with you, who can't ward the tribush he knows he's getting ganked from, and can't see anything from the jungle exits his mid warded.

By the way, if you can find a Talon who takes E at level 2 you don't need to gank, they've already lost lane.

"3v1 top. You can’t sit under turret while they gank because turrets do nothing. They are ambient gold." "And no the argument of “just play better” does not apply because yeah, you “can” win a 3v1 or a 2v4."

Schrödinger's jungler is simultaneously ganking you, counterjungling, clearing their own jungle, and nowhere at all. What can I say dude? I guess you just have to uninstall.

You clearly have no understanding of this game at all. :/ I’m done arguing with someone who doesn’t understand basic fundamentals of the game, let alone jungle tactics.

PhearBunnyJan 2, 20193 votes

youre wrong. Its not the lanes that matter, its godtier champs that matter. Lucian or Pyke for example are both bot laners, that have no problem hard carrying games because they are godtier champions.

5050BSJan 2, 20191 votes

There is some true to this but Ganks matter too by a lot.

2Charmnot2CharmJan 3, 20192 votes

Better bot lane still wins if they play it well.

Jungle is busted and has been for years so you're late on that.

The thigh guyJan 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Better bot lane still wins if they play it well.

Jungle is busted and has been for years so you're late on that.

Not even a little. Bot lane that mid and jungle camps wins. The skill difference between the laners means little to nothing when the lane is a 2v4.

ZardoJan 2, 20191 votes

having 7 different escape routes compared to 1-2 in the other lanes.

That's also 7 different ways for the jungler to gank. If the jungler wants to camp your lane and make it so you can't snowball your lead as a mid laner, there's nothing you can do. You can play safe and watch as your team loses slowly while wishing that you could do something, anything, but if you tried you'd just be 2v1'd and slaughtered.

The thigh guyJan 2, 20193 votes

{quoted}

That's also 7 different ways for the jungler to gank. If the jungler wants to camp your lane and make it so you can't snowball your lead as a mid laner, there's nothing you can do. You can play safe and watch as your team loses slowly while wishing that you could do something, anything, but if you tried you'd just be 2v1'd and slaughtered.

Jungle is easily warded out for midlane by warding jungle exits. Doing that reduces your number of escapes from 7 to 4. Which is still twice as many as the other lanes. So no, this comparison proves nothing. A jungler can camp mid. But they won’t get nearly as much, hence why the jungler and mid lane roam together and instant win other lanes.

AtmosphereJan 3, 20191 votes

Turrets hurt pretty bad now, but every other point you made is still valid. They need to remove or reduce turret plating gold to stop heavy snowballing off of one kill, as well as reduce death timers so a player isn't dead for 20 seconds losing their turret because they died once at 15 minutes

The thigh guyJan 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Turrets hurt pretty bad now, but every other point you made is still valid. They need to remove or reduce turret plating gold to stop heavy snowballing off of one kill, as well as reduce death timers so a player isn't dead for 20 seconds losing their turret because they died once at 15 minutes

Turrets Hurt pretty bad, when the horrendous turret ai targets a champion yes. The issue is that that turrets shot timer is way too slow and it’s being abused. Not to mention champions due to each other in under 3 seconds at level 3 now turrets get maybe 1 shot off. Assuming the enemy isn’t abusing the horrible ai.

AtmosphereJan 3, 20191 votes

Fair point, fair point

HeeroTXJan 4, 20192 votes

They could actually EASILY fix this by giving turrets back the small shield that had a long time ago. But that'd slow the game down, which is why turrets were weakened in the first place.

DoktorKaiserJan 3, 20191 votes

From my experience the most important role by far is the jungler, to put it simple - if your jungler is significantly worse than the enemy jungler you 100% lost the game. Not even 99%, but 100%. Second most important role imo is top lane due to the fact that many top laners are so broken they can 1v5 the enemy team if they start rolling- Fiora, Riven, Akali, Irelia, Darius, Aatrox, Jax, hell even Urgot and Sion. Mid lane is only really impactful if they roam bot, I have hardly seen fed mid laners carry, especially mages who are garbage right now, but even assassins struggle to 1v5 unless they are aoe like Talon. Bot lane is definitely the worst, most ADCs are near useless, supports aren't even viable because they are pushed out by mages who 3 shot them, who are themselves pushed out of mid lane by brainless assassins who 1 shot them.

The thigh guyJan 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

From my experience the most important role by far is the jungler, to put it simple - if your jungler is significantly worse than the enemy jungler you 100% lost the game. Not even 99%, but 100%. Second most important role imo is top lane due to the fact that many top laners are so broken they can 1v5 the enemy team if they start rolling- Fiora, Riven, Akali, Irelia, Darius, Aatrox, Jax, hell even Urgot and Sion. Mid lane is only really impactful if they roam bot, I have hardly seen fed mid laners carry, especially mages who are garbage right now, but even assassins struggle to 1v5 unless they are aoe like Talon. Bot lane is definitely the worst, most ADCs are near useless, supports aren't even viable because they are pushed out by mages who 3 shot them, who are themselves pushed out of mid lane by brainless assassins who 1 shot them.

Mid laners roam with the jungler now due to being center of the map. That’s why they are so influential.

Picks like talon go mid, instant clear the wave, then go to the side of the map the jungler is on and gank that lane. Repeat til challenger.