Can armor actually feel like its doing something

Moonfall Saber··29 votes·2,043 views

If you build item 3211 in lane it makes a HUGE difference. If you build item 3076 in lane you just wasted 900 gold.

78 Comments

RenownedWheat4218 votes

I feel like these "armor feels useless" posts are all incredibly exaggerated.

Very Hard Engage6 votes

if only item 3071 + item 3036 didn't give players the capacity to ignore 6000 gold of my build.

its just sheer math at this point that cant be overlooked.

its like 6 items to 3 items, so unless your armor stacker can also deal damage, you aren't a tank in any capacity anymore.

RenownedWheat422 votes

Those items are a pain in the ass, sure, but if you can't lock down the backline and prevent them from shredding you or your team, you're doing a poor job as a tank.

Even on a solely support tank budget, I don't typically have a problem even against folks with LDR. What's the ADC gonna do if they're locked in CC and then just deleted? Nothing.

Champion Skin1 votes

Even on a solely support tank budget, I don't typically have a problem even against folks with LDR. What's the ADC gonna do if they're locked in CC and then just deleted? Nothing.

So why even bother building tank? Why not just build damage since then you can kill them faster while they are CC'ed after all not like they can hit you back while being CC'ed

hhaavviikk2 votes

{quoted}

if only item 3071 + item 3036 didn't give players the capacity to ignore 6000 gold of my build.

its just sheer math at this point that cant be overlooked.

its like 6 items to 3 items, so unless your armor stacker can also deal damage, you aren't a tank in any capacity anymore.

the problem also occurs when the ADC doesn't buy last whisperer, if you don't buy last whisperer the tank can 1 vs 1, if you do buy last whisperer you can 1 vs 1 the tank and barely even lose any health because of lifesteal, that's what I feel like the balance issue is, last whisperer avoids so much armor that they must put a ton of armor on items which means if you don't buy last whisperer you're screwed

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Tanks aren't supposed to 1v1 in the first place ._. They get to have defensive steroids, scaling and a lot of utility because of that.

And marksmen hardly ever buy both black clever+last whisper, only one of them.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

im saying neither should die until the adc chases the tank so far out of position he gets killed by the enemy team.

but power creep.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

It's more like the tank chasing the marksman around trying stun them while the marksman tries to avoid getting stunned while also keeping up the DPS.

And a meta tank that is even with a marksman and has a good set of items can easily keep that chase up for a while against anyone except Twitch, Vayne and tristana depending on her build.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

from the mastery update tanks now deal competent damage, namely from item changes and certain champion buffs and synergies. but ultimately tanks should be unkillable and provide little but cc. (around end season 5, preseason 6 era) thats when damage was just loaded onto everyone. and its all about blowing up the adc or bust.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

They should not be unkillable, that would just result in a situation where nothing ever happens.

Tanks go in, stand there for ages until they drop to 1/3 before running away with their team-

It's a extremely stale gameplay that no one wants to see, even the assassin meta's are more fun to watch.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

do you know how old maokai used to be? literally cant die, takes a team of 5. what rammus, shen and malphite used to be, and what new galio feels like.

thats what tanks should be like.

tanks should NOT be sejuani, jarvan, darius, poppy who can duel adcs and shred their faces off.

i want to be tickled and laugh off a single adc when i build 6 armor items. i dont want to kill the adc. i want to go where i please and then provide the cc i need to for the team unless the whole enemy team wants to take me down over 10 seconds. not just the adc alone in 10s.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

No that's not how tanks should be, it's extremely frustrating to play against and he was reworked to prevent him from doing exactly that.

Highly tanky, low cd point and click CC and a very dang powerful on demand defensive steroid ontop post lvl 6.

He was pretty much the only tank played because he outperformed everything else.....by a lot.

And Galio is only that tanky against mages when he uses his defensive abilities....he still takes normal damage from all AD champs.

Shen and malphite were both OP as well, they would just keep diving into your team and anything short of a 6 items lategame carry or overfed carry couldn't touch them.

And new Seju does not duel marksmen, have you even played her? Maybe at like lvl 3-4 something with redbuff if the marksman is low enough..........and poppy was nerfed out of it a while ago.

Jarvan and Darius are not even tanks ._.

And by the final segment.....you dp realize that if tanks were that strong then we´d be back in a tank meta with extremely slow games that hardly go anywhere and the most exciting thing is a Cho gath finally ulting someone after like 50% seconds of standing ontop of that someone with sunfire and auto attacks?

Absolutely 0 skill involved, just braindead, slow, clunky and sleep inducing gameplay.

There is not a single soul that enjoy's watching tank meta's happen except a few like you, if this is what you want from league then i can with 100% certainty say that riot will never be clueless enough to let it happen again.

If this is what you want then this game is not for you.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

big difference between tanky goes where he pleases. and half second unmitigated knockup/root combo forced to deal with either or.

if you want everyone to play assassins only all the time then go play dota. there everyone feels competently strong and can make an impact in their own way.

league is different where it strives to add diversity while balancing around strategy, not "min stats achieved time to wreck face"

tanks should be unkillable if they itemize directly against you. the trade off that is if they build mixed resistances armor AND mr then you two working together should be competent kill threats against him.

but if he specifically targets against you, you should deal next to nothing. not that he is now enabled to kill you.

thats exactly how it was the first 4 and a half seasons of league and it was great. now we are trapped in this volatile pick whatever and just be the first to engage meta and its awful.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

If tanks were so damn hard to kill that would kill of diversity far harder than even the lethality meta did ._.

Do you even consider the implications of what you write!?

tanks should be unkillable if they itemize directly against you. the trade off that is if they build mixed resistances armor AND mr then you two working together should be competent kill threats against him.

What you call for here, is essentially a system that is based on the idea that all mages and marksmen deal an equal or similar enough amount of damage as the strongest of their role.

And it does not account for different types of damage such as DPS and burst at all.

This would just result in the strongest tanks and the top anti tank carries played, nothing else would ever get touched. Assassins, burst mages. poke mages and others...except Fiora.....would never be played.

Ever.

And you're telling me that league is about diversity? While calling for a system like this?

For such a system to work though without killing diversity, each and every tank would have to be balanced against each and every damage carry, both AP and AD.

I am quite sorry but it's completely impossible, it would be far too time consuming and costly to even try and implement.

Then take a look at that statement a second time......"If the tank builds both armor and magic resistance then you two together should be capable of killing him"

Dude, if he has split his resistances accors the board then he is naturally vulnerable to both altho not fully, it just takes more time but he will still die from strong DPS and there is no way around this unless using a individual based resistance system.

And it was not like this for the 4 few seasons, i started playing in the beginning of s3, i saw through half the time that you claim to have been as such.

And it was not anywhere near that, a fed Talon could instagibb a 180-250 armor nasus if he wanted. A fed Zed was a god and Xin zhao was a absolute beast that no one dared go near for ages.

We also had master Yi being 3 times stronger while also rolling AP every now and then.....

Oh and Kassadin was a god, Vayne was a god, Fizz was a monster, AP tristana was a thing.

Annie was quite strong too.

I dont actually recall seeing any tank besides mundo, shen and nautilus commonly played.....because rammus sucked ass against anything that wasn't a full AD comp and....the rest were either support tanks or weak at the time.

Malp was also pretty bad against any non full AD comps, but AP malp was surprisingly effective at times.....

The only reason it takes some time to kill tanks nowadays is because AP is pretty bad at it, all their ability to do so was shifted over to the marksmen who were given dedicated tools for the jobb.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

"ap malph was surprisingly effective..." because you cant fight back at all when theres nothing left and you engage first.

hence my original statement were in a meta where its more important than ever to initiate first and score picks. the game is NOT about strategy or diversity anymore, its only about what can cheese out kills.

if you go halfsies on defensive itemization, you still live a long time. you dont need to live forever like you would with full direct itemization, but its still more than 3 infinity edges.

you've been plagued by adc metas and full damage metas for so long you no longer have a concept of what a tank does for the team or should provide.

its not 1 initiation for the team fight to start to give you a 1.5 second window to pop the enemy adc. thats wrong. thats not a tank.

a TANK provides DAMAGE MITIGATION. for the team. instead of 10000x damage being dealt across the board as true or near true damage. everyone pummels the tank and 3500 damage is dealt.

thats the job of a tank. while also providing peel, protection, or initiation pending champion.

whether its through scaling, through build, or through abilities is up for interpretation as a tank. just the same way as "alistar is not a tank" meme since forever.

do not confuse riots unwillingness to make changes as a means of balance, riot has forever took the balance coaster for a spin instead of trying to make everyone a viable pick.

just now as they rotated galio in and then gave him the hammer back down to "pog champ" status.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

i want to go where i please

Well do I have a champ for you my friend!

DrMundo

RogueWill3 votes

Problem is lifesteal. Damage don't stick to adc and they are the only class that still get healing mid battle. Spellvamp and In-Battle regen are gone now, so why are they still allowed to have life steal is beyond me.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

AD champs generally don't use both those items in the same build anyway, except a few assassins and sometimes miss fortune.

And if tanks really were invincible this game would be incredibly stale, like it was in the true tank meta's.

Lasting more than 8-12 seconds in a teamfight is already plenty, and most of the meta tanks can easily do it.

Sejuani Rammus Chogath to name a few.

Ever saw that Video with a nautilus tanking like 20+ tower shots while parts of the enemy team also shot at him? That's why tanks can't be allowed to be too strong.

Ralanr1 votes

That video had Nautilus backed by shields and heals from his team. It was not him alone.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I think he got 2 karma shields....and this being before the support buffs those didn't count for much.

Ralanr1 votes

Karma shields mixed in with Redemption and now all at the same time but periodic over the fight.

This was not a Nautilus only thing.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Ah, i just looked it up.

It was a nami healing, and nautilus stood on varus's E.

And he took 31 towershots, while getting 1 full nami heal, one reduced and a redemption......while getting shot at by varus when possible while also tanking turrets nonstop.

31 shots.........

Ralanr1 votes

And a Lee Sin shield, combined with his own shielding which had enough cooldown to be used enough.

Nautilus was a big factor, but it wasn't only him and it was late game where turrets don't really do much at all.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Lee shield is quite small though? At that point it doesn't do much if i recall.

And his own shields are part of his tankiness? '

But yeah towers were weak even back then :(

Ralanr1 votes

Own shields are a part of tankiness, but usually I feel people think Nautilus did nothing when tanking the towers.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

As in he just stood there tanking the towers without moving? Yeah that's wrong as far as a description goes.

He did use his own shield whenever it was off CD, got a full nami heal and a redemption one + a reduced one.

And the little lee shield x)

But he was also getting shot at by varus a bit....a little bit, in addition to the towers, and he still didn't ever look terribly stressed out x)

However it still feels bad to just watch those towers hit like someone throwing fist sized rocks at a armored titan.

Ralanr1 votes

Eh, late game towers aren't supposed to be good. That's why we defend them.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

We defend our towers early on too, usually because they´re much more vulnerable with minions around.

But it still feels bad to watch someone just straight up ignore those buildings meant to exist as a advantage for the defending side.

It happens earlier on in games too, some tanks with 2 armor items just seems to forget that towers exist at times.

Ralanr1 votes

If he has 2 armor items that are completed, I don't think it's early game anymore.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Earlier, not early game^^

That around the start of midgame as i see it at least.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

To a point. Resists are suffering in the late game, but armor moreso because there are tons of ways to lop it off by the %, while AP is nicking 30 total MR plus the 35% bonus from Void and that's across three items, two of which only carry one other stat (Void gets AP/Pen, Sorc gets Pen/MS, but Liandry's still gets passive/AP/HP which is solid)...

Over on the AD side, Black Cleaver gives stacking % reduction as a debuff, enabling everyone else to take advantage of that bonus. Furthermore is the bonus armor reduction, which is kind of a weird concept because certain tanks (like Taric, Leona and Braum) are relying on bonus armor scaling that this item is just eating up; furthermore, both AD/Pen options come with a bell and whistle. One is Grievous Wounds and one is bonus HP, which takes this anti-tank item and further extrapolates it. Mortal Reminder is hella flexible while Lord Dom's will leaven a lot of tank grounds.

The problem is that for all the things that leaven the grounds between carry and tank, there's not a lot to travel that ground back the other way. You can lose a lot of armor and there's nothing you can do about that because not building the armor gets you chewed up even quicker but building it means they're just chewing through portions of your build while still getting the benefit of general damage or utility through their items. This is to say nothing of the champs with latent armor reductions besides (I think Xin just left that list, but Nasus and Garen are up there).

Armor is a much, much busier stat than Magic Resist at present, and as a result it is feeling kind of awkward-- you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It doesn't help that MR items have way cooler passives...

Phoenix Ral13 votes

What are you talking about. If you build bramble in lane against opponents like Jax/Irelia/Trynd you just straight win the lane on the spot. That item is dumb af which is why it is getting nerfed.

I agree that armor is underwhelming, but bramble vest isn't against specific opponents.

GayFluffyUnicorn8 votes

Had to lol pretty hard about that part as well. Bramble vest means you invest 900 gold to immediately win lane against every fighter who is not purely ability based.

GrReaper962 votes

Tbf most people get it for the passive GW anwyays

Thefrostyviking9 votes

How is item 3076 bad? They are straight up nerfing it because it was too strong............

It made some like Tryndamere Fiora and Aatrox straight up weak for a while.

AirKingNeo1 votes

"nerfing"

100 gold

Classic Riot to say fuck you bruisers, make a tiny change just so they don't have to do their job for another 2 months.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Bruisers is not a understandable terminology, it includes pretty much every single melee except assassins and tanks,but including tryndamere and Fiora into a huge bundle without any particular characteristics.

Divers, juggernatus and skirmishers are the current non tank or assassin melee classes.

And price changes do matter, something proven very clearly by the changes to marksmen items if anything.

But they could not go too far since it's only an item component, even if it is a strong one.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Not sure how that argues against the fact Riot refuses to properly nerf an item that makes bruisers auto lose laning phase.

Keep in mind, splitpushing has been nerfed dead.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

If splitting really was dead then Kayle, jax and Fiora would have dropped outa gold+ soloq by now.

But they haven't, they're still active in gold, plati and diamond.

And although one can argue that Fiora works in teamfights it's however certain that she is much more effective as a splitter looking for fights.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Except Kayle can teamfight. Jax is strong in this meta with Ardent. Fiora is just broken and a lane bully.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Kayle can teamfight but she usually avoids it to any and all extents possible, especially in a meta where CC is abundant.

Jax is much the same.

Fiora is OP though i agree.....but that does not change the fact that she exists.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers is not a understandable terminology, it includes pretty much every single melee except assassins and tanks

Yeah every single melee except 70% of them.... what horrid terminology. Oh wait.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Even If we don't exclude the support tanks that fundamentally work in a different way compared to jungle and toplane tanks, the divers and skirmishers and juggernauts outnumber the assassins and tanks.

Thus saying brusiers is hella confusing since it includes 3 different classes that all play differently, build differently and often even counter eachother class wise in regards to certain things.

They are just so different that bundling them up in a single group and making a statement about the group as a whole automatically becomes incorrect, because they are too diverse!

Learn what the heck you are on about before you make statements that have little support in reality and reason.

Dominick Destine1 votes

That was a whole lot of nothing.

Your argument was flimsy, fact. Nothing further needs to be said.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I bring forward evidence to prove that your argument makes no sense and is incorrect ontop and you dismiss mine as flimsy? Someone doesn't seem even understand his own words ._.

And to top things off you don't even present any kind of evidence to back your claim, all you do is make groundless statements and insult people on no basis other than your own opinion!

Arguing with you is the very example of futility if you wish to act as such.

Yeah every single melee except 70% of them.... what horrid terminology. Oh wait.

Indeed, you can't even count,nor do you realize why comparing something like the durability of a tank vs the durability of a juggernauts is pointless.

Or why and how the 3 melee classes are different.

You fail basic math and logic doesn't seem to be something you´re versed in.....and you're trying to say my reasoning is unsound? Right.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Alright since you insist on continuing your nonsense, let's rip you apart with ease...

{quoted}

I bring forward evidence

You did not "bring forward evidence", you spewed nonsense.

Ironically, my original argument presents the same logic that Riot themselves do, classifying the characters in a fairly similar fashion as I did. You fail spectacularly.

And to top things off you don't even present any kind of evidence

Uhh you mean aside from stating Yeah every single melee except 70% of them which is fairly close to the statistic in question.

Do you even know what the word 'evidence' means?

Arguing with you is the very example of futility if you wish to act as such.

I tend to agree.

You were completely outmatched from the beginning. I require someone with significantly greater quality arguments, like Ariel.

Indeed, you can't even count,nor do you realize why comparing something like the durability of a tank vs the durability of a juggernauts is pointless. Or why and how the 3 melee classes are different.

Again, a whole lot of nothing.

You fail basic math

Pointless garbage.

and logic doesn't seem to be something you´re versed in

The irony is quite thick.

trying to say my reasoning is unsound?

It's not about your "reasoning being unsound" it's that you're not saying anything of substance, you're talking is nonsense is my point.

It's really not that complicated.... your nomenclature was garbage and I called it out, gg'd hard.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

This is so incredibility sad ._.

You support your entire argument on 2 things:

Yeah every single melee except 70% of them.

Ironically, my original argument presents the same logic that Riot themselves do, classifying the characters in a fairly similar fashion as I did. You fail spectacularly.

This first part isn't even true which you would know if you actually had some understanding of math, and the other thing you use as a support is the fact that at a time in the past riot used to use the classification of "bruisers". As if they didn't change it on the very basis that it had become useless x)

"oh but riot used to do it so i am not wrong to do it myself!" is in reality what you are saying here, despite the fact that it was abandoned by riot themselves.

Then since you don't even seem to know how to count.....

First up, assassins and tanks together, including the support tanks, number 28.

But without the support tanks they are 25, but i shall include them as well.

So overall the divers, skirmishers and juggernauts number 34, meaning they make up for roughly 53 % of the overall melee champion population......thus by logic we know that the assassins and tanks are the remaining 47%.

How is 47% the same as 70%? You accuse me of failing to bring forth evidence but i am starting to wonder if you are just incapable of understanding it since you quite clearly cant count! ._.

Thus again, your arguments have no basis in reality and the evidence you use only serves to prove my claims instead.

And you still insist on saying that i am the one that doesn't understand simple logic? You don't understand math and you use obsolete classifications abandoned by the very ones you claim to be the reason you use them.

You have thus no credibility at all, no understanding of math which crumbles your first argument and the second is so pointless that Riot themselves gave up on it.

Face it, bruisers is a old classifications that isn't usable for this game anymore, trying to insist otherwise is just making youself look even sillier than you already do.

The proof of this? The one fact you can't argue about.....the fact that Riot choose to change on on the very basis that it wasn't working.

(http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses)

A link to the latest official page about the different subclasses for your perusal, you seem to be in dire need of it.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

This is so incredibility sad

I wouldn't call it sad as much as it is boring, you are not a challenge and are wildly outmatched.

This first part isn't even true which you would know if you actually had some understanding of math and the other thing you use as a support is the fact that at a time in the past riot used to use the classification of "bruisers". As if they didn't change it on the very basis that it had become useless "oh but riot used to do it so i am not wrong to do it myself!" is in reality what you are saying here, despite the fact that it was abandoned by riot themselves.

That's a whole lot of nothing.

Maybe you should try presenting actual arguments.

First up, assassins and tanks together, including the support tanks, number 28. But without the support tanks they are 25, but i shall include them as well.

That's nice but inaccurate.

So overall the divers, skirmishers and juggernauts number 34

"Divers, skirmishers", surely you can point me to the point inside the game where this nomenclature is used? oh that's right, you can't, gg'd.

meaning they make up for roughly 53 % of the overall melee champion population......thus by logic we know that the assassins and tanks are the remaining 47%.

That's not how that works, you Solana.

You cannot classify an entire remaining group based purely on that statistic, obviously. Not to mention you're under-counting tanks and assassins.

How is 47% the same as 70%?

1- Those numbers are wrong. 2- I never said 70% was accurate, I said it was close, which it is. 3- That 47% is a joke (Refer to #1).

You accuse me of failing to bring forth evidence

Stopped reading right there.

You do not know what the word 'evidence' means, you almost came close with your attempted breakdown of the character's classified as tanks and assassins, but failed nonetheless.

My money would be on you having attempted to get these numbers from some random wiki that does not properly classify assassins as assassins... and only has a very low number of tanks as actual tanks rather than the correct number... I.e. you are drastically lowballing the number to suit your extremely flimsy point.

It's easy to see through, and pointless to continue. You have nothing of value to present.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

"Divers, skirmishers", surely you can point me to the point inside the game where this nomenclature is used? oh that's right, you can't, gg'd.

Yeah so this is the core of your argument, and you even happily skipped over the part where i linked you the page where an official rioteer, officially posted a page about the new classes.

The fact that you ignored this proves just how little attention you pay to riot's statements and balance philosophies, had you actually taken a few minutes to read through that stuff you might have known.

But since you willfully ignore everything relevant, especially the stuff posed by riot themselves it's abundantly clear that arguing with you truly serves no purpose.

After all, i based all my arguments of the numbers on the official page, not the one in the game client that Riot themselves have stated is old and outdated.

The reason you ought to follow these new classifications, is because riot's balancing of the champions is heavily dependent on which class they are in. Thus having an understanding of what goes where is quite a good idea.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses)

Once again, for your perusal,i sincerely hope you could at least make an effort to stay up do date with the current state of affairs or at least tell others beforehand that you don't as to save them the headache of trying to debate with you.

I am done.

Ralanr4 votes

Bramble is great in lane dude.

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