Boards›Gameplay

Re: LCS is always the same.

Lao Fu the Tiger··18 votes·2,108 views

Remember when Mundo and Shyvana were always picked top, and people complained that "the same three top laners (Mundo, Shyvana, and Renekton) are always picked; LCS kills diversity"? Where are they now?

Remember when Ryze dominated top lane in the LCS and people cried that he was picked too often and games got boring? Where is he now?

Remember when Kha'zix jungle was "old and boring" because he saw so much play?

Or when, as this user noted in 2013, he wished champions such as Fizz, Jax and Xerath were played instead of the same old boring Diana and Lux and Shen? Graves was popular here.

Take a look at this complaint page about early-mid 2014 diversity in LCS. I'll link the image with the meat of the page. Graves was "dead" here. Huh. http://static.ongamers.com/uploads/original/0/2262/8377-split+circles.png

Zed isn't even in the top 75% of champions picked? But you are complaining "we only see Zed."

Gragas was one of the top 50% most picked champions.

Rumble, Graves, Xerath, Lissandra, Irelia, J4, Corki and Kog'Maw were picked in less than ten games in the 2014 Spring Split according to this site (however reliable it is). Don't get me started with the fact Maokai was never picked.

Now we see them all the time, and here we are, once again, complaining about diversity in the LCS.

Here we are, complaining that we always see the same champions 100% of the time. Except that this time, it's a different set of champions from last split. And the split before that. And the split before that. And the one before that.

Granted, some champions have been viable throughout all of these seasons such as Lee Sin, but geez, you guys are hard to please. The meta DOES change. No, it's not going to change over one or two or three weeks. Of course it won't. Patches aren't even released that often.

What has to happen to please you guys? Seeing jungle Riven? So that next split you can complain that "I'm so sick of ALWAYS seeing Riven jungle.... sigh"

Diversity changes. Metas shift. And when you say X champion isn't viable in the current meta of LCS play, many times, it's exactly that - unviable in the current meta. I know some are considered entirely unviable, and I agree. But we all need to chill it with the "diversity is dead" posts.

21 Comments

Drunk Rummate12 votes

i think you're missing the major point, which is that we want things to vary from game to game rather than 15 champions being meta for an entire split before they get nerfed and other champions take their place.

it does vary from split to split, but once the split starts there's very little variance in champion select until something gets nerfed or buffed. i'd like to see more interaction between several different champions, rather than sit back and say "well they want a teamfight comp so naturally they pick sivir for the ult" when there are many other ADCs who also bring a lot to teamfights individually.

a lot of that issue is simply in pro and coach mentality. their refusal to think outside the box because they know something works, and why take the risk if you already know X works and you're unsure about Y? I'd kill for a little more diversity in champ select. Make it 30 champions instead of 15. That's a huge win for me. 45 would be like a birthday present. Right now 15 just feels redundant, and you basically just get to hear Phreak talk about the value of Avarice blade on sivir every game for an entire split until that changes.

Lao Fu the Tiger3 votes

{quoted}

i think you're missing the major point, which is that we want things to vary from game to game rather than 15 champions being meta for an entire split before they get nerfed and other champions take their place.

it does vary from split to split, but once the split starts there's very little variance in champion select until something gets nerfed or buffed. i'd like to see more interaction between several different champions, rather than sit back and say "well they want a teamfight comp so naturally they pick sivir for the ult" when there are many other ADCs who also bring a lot to teamfights individually.

a lot of that issue is simply in pro and coach mentality. their refusal to think outside the box because they know something works, and why take the risk if you already know X works and you're unsure about Y? I'd kill for a little more diversity in champ select. Make it 30 champions instead of 15. That's a huge win for me. 45 would be like a birthday present. Right now 15 just feels redundant, and you basically just get to hear Phreak talk about the value of Avarice blade on sivir every game for an entire split until that changes.

To a degree, you are correct. A large part of this is coach mentality and current familiarity. This is why even when balance changes happen, you don't immediately see shifts in champion picks. Professionals fall out of practice with champions just like other players do with any sport or hobby. So just like you and I may "main" a certain champion, if we don't play that champion for an extended period, coming back to it does take a little bit of play time before we remaster the champion. They're conditioned to play under very specific conditions with very specific compositions. Furthermore, it's perfectly understandable they don't want to take risks when they're vying for their jobs with every game they play. They want consistency in a given scenario.

Although, that being said, I don't wholeheartedly agree that there are only around 15 champions being used at the moment. I believe that, aside from the jungle, we've seen some of the most diversity we've seen in a while - Draven, Jinx, Caitlyn, Graves, Sivir, Tristana, Vayne, etc. in bottom lane, Leblanc, Kassadin, Xerath, Zed, Syndra, Orianna, and even Cassiopeia, etc. in the middle lane, and a bunch of top laners. Of course, the jungle is still Jarvan, Vi and Lee.

The problem becomes the fact that some champions at any given point in time will be objectively stronger than another champion. Therefore, they get picked. However, simply nerfing them doesn't exactly work the way you'd think they are. Let's say that every champion in the game is a 6 on a scale of 1-10, and there's one outlier that is an 8. A reasonable person may say that we should just nerf the champion that rates 8 down to 6 so that they're all 6s. But it doesn't work like this. When you nerf that champion down to a 6, other champions will become 7s. And others may drop down to 5s. And some even still will become 8+ because they are no longer gated by the threat of those previously-dominant picks. This is incredibly oversimplified, but the main point is that implementing a balance change to one champion does not affect only that champion, but others as well.

From a totally realistic perspective, LCS professionals are not there to entertain you. They exist to win. Entertainment is a byproduct, but they are not themselves entertainers, they are athletes. They are paid by winning. When you watch professional football, do you complain that the same players are in every game, making the same plays, staying in the same formations? No. But it IS within the rules for a coach to align his players however the heck he wanted, even inventing his own new plays. Of course, if this was to cause a loss, and happened repeatedly, players and/or coaches would be dropped and they would lose money. They do what works against a given team and a given playstyle.

sloverlord1 votes

As the saying goes, if it aint broke, dont fix it

Drunk Rummate1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lao Fu the Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ia9t1JeW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-02-17T04:35:37.464+0000)

From a totally realistic perspective, LCS professionals are not there to entertain you. They exist to win.

Perhaps it is not in their job description, but if they fail to entertain then they do eventually lose their jobs. Not that it's necessarily their duty to do that - it mostly falls on Riot. I would say team owners would have it in their best interests not only to have a team that wins, but also a team that is interesting. That extends beyond champion picks of course, just look at TSM and their legacy. But it also extends to the champions they play. Their champions are a big part of their identity, much like Faker and Zed.

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps it is not in their job description, but if they fail to entertain then they do eventually lose their jobs. Not that it's necessarily their duty to do that - it mostly falls on Riot. I would say team owners would have it in their best interests not only to have a team that wins, but also a team that is interesting. That extends beyond champion picks of course, just look at TSM and their legacy. But it also extends to the champions they play. Their champions are a big part of their identity, much like Faker and Zed.

Yes of course.

But people would just the same get a kick out of an unorthodox football defensive line. And pro sports games are entertaining, because it pits the best against the best.

Diversity is a good thing.

But not to the point it jeapordises their game, on this case. There are plenty of viablr picks not played in LCS that can do amazingly well even at challenger level solo queue. With ranked teams, though, it's all about consistency. And personally, I don't mind seeing the best of the best tackling a set of champions for a month then rotating to a new set of champions a different month. That's simply personal preference, but as a huge sports but (playing and watching) I have grown to appreciate the different variety of play from even within a single champion.

Of course, that is just me.

Profirix1 votes

As a jungle main it really hurts to have to pick 3 champions to remain viable. You could say "oh, but there are a couple other picks..." and while I agree that you could pick Kha or Ren and MAYBE pantheon, these champions are very situational and suffer against a coordinated team at almost every level. Don't even get me started about tank junglers.

I just wish I could pick more than the top 3 and not feel like I am gimping my team unnecessarily.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

naut with triforce is op and you cant disagree

Per Favore1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lao Fu the Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ia9t1JeW,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-02-17T04:35:37.464+0000) From a totally realistic perspective, LCS professionals are not there to entertain you. They exist to win. Entertainment is a byproduct, but they are not themselves entertainers, they are athletes. They are paid by winning. When you watch professional football, do you complain that the same players are in every game, making the same plays, staying in the same formations? No. But it IS within the rules for a coach to align his players however the heck he wanted, even inventing his own new plays. Of course, if this was to cause a loss, and happened repeatedly, players and/or coaches would be dropped and they would lose money. They do what works against a given team and a given playstyle.

Um no that is not a realistic perspective at all. Entertainment is what they are there for. Same with regular athletes. Their existence is only because they are entertaining to watch and can be used to generate revenue for the organizational body and the sponsors.

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Free Nexus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ia9t1JeW,comment-id=000200000003,timestamp=2015-02-17T08:48:14.576+0000)

Um no that is not a realistic perspective at all. Entertainment is what they are there for. Same with regular athletes. Their existence is only because they are entertaining to watch and can be used to generate revenue for the organizational body and the sponsors.

I'll clarify a little. Athletes in and of themselves are not there to entertain in the moment of the game. LCS as a whole is. Yes, football players' and LCS players' existence is the fact they're entertaining and can generate revenue as teams during competition, but that's only in the context of the whole NFL or LCS. During a single game, every athlete's prerogative is to win by any fair means necessary. People are entertained by the competition. But the individual athletes don't go in with the mindset of "I need to win the fan base over by entertaining them." They go in with the mindset of "I will do my best to win" and are part of a larger organization whose purpose is to entertain.

It's interesting. But just because their jobs exist due to a demand for entertainment, that entertainment is achieved by having the best players, which by definition means their goal is victory.

thinking man2 votes

Pretty sure that chart is from a time when AP Gragas was a monstrosity and Zed was falling out of favor hard.

Lao Fu the Tiger7 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure that chart is from a time when AP Gragas was a monstrosity and Zed was falling out of favor hard.

And this proves my point entirely. People complained about the meta. Balance changes happened. Somebody else comes into favour. The meta shifts, and different champions are played. Now people complain about THESE champions always being played. And balance changes will happen again. And the meta will shift again to different champions. People complain. And the cycle repeats.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

.

ImpendingDeath1 votes

That's true, but if Riot were able to balance better, we wouldn't have such a restricted champion pool for EVERY LCS. We're constantly seeing a small pool of ~30 champions at most for each LCS. The meta shifts too much and nerfs/buffs are implemented and then we see a different pool of at most 30 champions again. There's no reason why buffs/nerfs can't be implemented at the right strength while also being appropriate for the current meta for there to be a 100% pick/ban rate.

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

{quoted}

That's true, but if Riot were able to balance better, we wouldn't have such a restricted champion pool for EVERY LCS. We're constantly seeing a small pool of ~30 champions at most for each LCS. The meta shifts too much and nerfs/buffs are implemented and then we see a different pool of at most 30 champions again. There's no reason why buffs/nerfs can't be implemented at the right strength while also being appropriate for the current meta for there to be a 100% pick/ban rate.

That's the goal.

Unfortunately, there are so so so many more variables that go into it besides just balancing champions, like popular playstyle, and effective strategies against popular playstyles. And then strategies against those. It makes true balance between all champions nigh impossible.

tainteddaze2 votes

first off that was before the maokai rework and he was never once used they reworked him then nerfed him and he is still in a good spot brings a lot to teams and is used in lcs now in different settings when needed niche pick. Look at someone like zed for instance and gragas now. Gragas was used got reworked still used nerfed and not used anymore, but yet zed was used and is still used none stop now. Why should gragas get gutted out but zed doesn't that is the true problem in the lcs when riot does their balance changes they shit on people they don't give a fuck about then leave others in power states for months and months at a time while no other champion can compete with x champion.

Also take elise into example used none stop nerfed to fuck not used any more plus new jungle fucked her even more over and can only really be played by nunu, udyr, lee sin, vi, fiddlesticks, j4, ww without real worry about being counter killed by enemy jungle because they get don't so low on the first clear.

Also when was the last time you seen a poppy, malz, shaco in the lcs. But honestly almost every game lee sin is in it and has been in since he was released. He even has a championship skin made by him cause he is used in the lcs that much. If i was a designer i would see their is a problem with that champion if every single season he is top pick for teams.

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

{quoted}

first off that was before the maokai rework and he was never once used they reworked him then nerfed him and he is still in a good spot brings a lot to teams and is used in lcs now in different settings when needed niche pick. Look at someone like zed for instance and gragas now. Gragas was used got reworked still used nerfed and not used anymore, but yet zed was used and is still used none stop now. Why should gragas get gutted out but zed doesn't that is the true problem in the lcs when riot does their balance changes they shit on people they don't give a fuck about then leave others in power states for months and months at a time while no other champion can compete with x champion.

Also take elise into example used none stop nerfed to fuck not used any more plus new jungle fucked her even more over and can only really be played by nunu, udyr, lee sin, vi, fiddlesticks, j4, ww without real worry about being counter killed by enemy jungle because they get don't so low on the first clear.

Also when was the last time you seen a poppy, malz, shaco in the lcs. But honestly almost every game lee sin is in it and has been in since he was released. He even has a championship skin made by him cause he is used in the lcs that much. If i was a designer i would see their is a problem with that champion if every single season he is top pick for teams.

Zed was in the bottom 10% of LCS picks during the Spring Split last year. He was considered a weak pick and very very situational.

TauNoob11 votes

Think you might want to look at that list because I'm sure Rengar was picked and banned many times.

qetzel1 votes

Not early-mid. Rengar was later on...

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

{quoted}

Think you might want to look at that list because I'm sure Rengar was picked and banned many times.

Not during last year's NA LCS spring split. He was not used one time.

He later became incredibly popular, however.

ForgiveColour1 votes

cant help it when bronze watches lcs only to know what to pick instead of trying to learn the game

Yandere Carry1 votes

they want everychamp to be god tier is what I've taken from it.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Lao Fu the Tiger

Do you guys not realize Riot's about to release a weekly gamemode rotation?
Gameplay313 comments
447
votes
Can we be more civil?
Gameplay137 comments
217
votes
@Riot, Please, PLEASE fix this. Please?
Gameplay77 comments
189
votes
Hey, Dyrus.
Esports27 comments
177
votes
The reason why YOU aren't having fun at League
Gameplay243 comments
173
votes
"Team Impulse banning J4 almost forces TSM to pick Lee Sin."
Gameplay113 comments
169
votes