Then use the ranks we have as milestones in mmr and just show us our mmr.
This system is so stupid. Oh your gold 2. Well. You can que with your iron friend. But here’s 2 iron 3 players in your promo. Because reasons.
Woodakoodashooda38 votesMMR needs to die. Placements need to die. What we need is an actual ELO system in which participants are well within 10% points of the highest or lowest performer. Fuck it if timers are made longer because of it. I can browse porn and jackoff while I wait if need be. I want to have fun in a videogame and 10+ losses in a row in a game is NOT fun!
Saezio21 votesMMR is the same number as we had in the old ELO system. But we need it to be visible and be near the same MMR. Supposedly there is a max MMR difference between people in a game but it's just a lie. Riot keep it invisible to keep creating unfair matches with short waiting.
Caitlyn FTW8 votes[deleted]
Saezio9 votesYou see, I don't like conspiracy theories either. But, since the queue times have not gone up drastically over the last 4 seasons, it means the player count is the same (for same quality of matches)
If you believe the player count is the same cool. I don't believe that. I believe the queue times are kept low by allowing more unfair matches. If there is another way to keep queue times low without higher MMR difference and with less players let me know.
Oh and btw, the queue times should have gone up further because we didn't even have to chose positions now we do.
But I guess you believe the player count is the same.
The thigh guy4 votesYou see, I don't like conspiracy theories either. But, since the queue times have not gone up drastically over the last 4 seasons, it means the player count is the same (for same quality of matches)
If you believe the player count is the same cool. I don't believe that. I believe the queue times are kept low by allowing more unfair matches. If there is another way to keep queue times low without higher MMR difference and with less players let me know.
Oh and btw, the queue times should have gone up further because we didn't even have to chose positions now we do.
But I guess you believe the player count is the same.
Funny. Riot also doesn’t reveal how many active players they have either.
That’s kinda an interesting theory here.
Saezio3 votesWell, they don't reveal their player count no. And we can never know for sure. they can always claim "internal data actually is different yadayadayada"
BUT
If you compare your ladder rank between 2 seasons while being at the same percentile you will see the difference. Granted, this is for ranked only. I'll make an example because English is my off-role. If in season 7 someone is 40% of top players and they have 100k players ahead of them and in season 8 they are 40% of top but have 80k players ahead of them it indicates a drop of 20k players. (numbers are obviously stupidly off, not gonna bother checking actual numbers for an example that can get my point across)
Pika Fox1 votesYou see, I don't like conspiracy theories either. But, since the queue times have not gone up drastically over the last 4 seasons, it means the player count is the same (for same quality of matches)
If you believe the player count is the same cool. I don't believe that. I believe the queue times are kept low by allowing more unfair matches. If there is another way to keep queue times low without higher MMR difference and with less players let me know.
Oh and btw, the queue times should have gone up further because we didn't even have to chose positions now we do.
But I guess you believe the player count is the same.
No one cares what you believe if its clearly wrong.
Saezio3 votesSo, you believe ranked player count is the same? Cause that is the only assumption I made. And I have every site like Op.gg to back me up on this. But please present your points
Pika Fox1 votesSo, you believe ranked player count is the same? Cause that is the only assumption I made. And I have every site like Op.gg to back me up on this. But please present your points
Ranked playercount is irrelevant to get players of similar mmr into the game quickly, especially with autofill. Fact of the matter is, until diamond there is a surplus of players of similar skill to the point where this is not a relevant argument. Diamond and above is the only place where this will ever be a thing, and thats entirely by nature of how those skill brackets work.
Saezio3 votesYou play ranked? Cause I only see daily bot games on your account.
Of course player count is relevant to get players of almost identical MMR to a match quickly + autofill is supposedly a last resort and only activates after a certain amount of time. Having an average MMR difference of 5 or having an average MMR difference of 25 is 5x more difference in skill btw. AKA less quality in matches. Similar just doesn't cut it. Similar to you might be 1700 with 1750, while to me 1700 and 1710 maximum 1690 minimum. fact of the matter is that the more the players the lower the average MMR difference between players in the same game.
And yeah back in season 2 if you were 2800 ELO + you would need to be in queue for 45 mins + to get in a game. But even challengers these days don't wait more than 30 mins (not counting dodges). So player count must be up
Now back to intermediate.
Pika Fox1 votesYou play ranked? Cause I only see daily bot games on your account.
Of course player count is relevant to get players of almost identical MMR to a match quickly + autofill is supposedly a last resort and only activates after a certain amount of time. Having an average MMR difference of 5 or having an average MMR difference of 25 is 5x more difference in skill btw. AKA less quality in matches. Similar just doesn't cut it. Similar to you might be 1700 with 1750, while to me 1700 and 1710 maximum 1690 minimum. fact of the matter is that the more the players the lower the average MMR difference between players in the same game.
And yeah back in season 2 if you were 2800 ELO + you would need to be in queue for 45 mins + to get in a game. But even challengers these days don't wait more than 30 mins (not counting dodges). So player count must be up
Now back to intermediate.
Player count is not relevant in a pool with millions to choose from. Again, your assumption is false simply due to the scale at which it operates. Losing a few thousand means nothing in queue times with hundreds of thousands/millions queueing.
Saezio4 votesMillions queuing at the same time in the same queue? How about a 40% loss in player counts?
Because that's what we are facing according to sites tracking the ladder.
You think that if the lowest person was ranked 1.000.000 in season 5 and now the last person will be more than 900k?
Pika Fox1 votesMillions queuing at the same time in the same queue? How about a 40% loss in player counts?
Because that's what we are facing according to sites tracking the ladder.
You think that if the lowest person was ranked 1.000.000 in season 5 and now the last person will be more than 900k?
Even if you lost 300k active queuers there would still be more than enough to have minimal queue times.
Fact of the matter is that the average difference between same team mmr is no more than 30, while mmr between teams on average is no more than 5. Get a real argument or stop spouting bull.
Saezio2 votesYou just pull that 300k number out your ass?
The total number of people that played ranked in NA in 2018 (the whole season) was 1,6mil
So, you claiming ~millions queue up at the same time is pure BS. Can you acknowledge that?
Pika Fox1 votesYou just pull that 300k number out your ass?
The total number of people that played ranked in NA in 2018 (the whole season) was 1,6mil
So, you claiming ~millions queue up at the same time is pure BS. Can you acknowledge that?
You do realize more exist than just NA, right?
And seriously, 1.6m consistent queuers. Hundreds of thousands of those can drop, and youd still see minimal timers with autofill.
Face it, your argument makes zero logical sense and is garbage.
Saezio1 votesnot 1,6mil consistent. 1,6 mil total. Some with 10 games some with thousands.
The thigh guy3 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILr8RYfP,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-05-30T20:26:07.859+0000)
Even if you wanted to lowball it for no reason, even just 700k would be more than enough for consistent queues.
The fact is youre still looking at at least 1.3m consistent queuers. Almost everyone that plays ranked actively plays it and almost exclusively plays it.
That’s an extremely big assertion.
For there to be 700k people in que for games at all times, that requires there to be over 7 million active players at all times, due to games involving 10 players.
UcImGood1 votesyou should count 1.6m playerbase, and active queuers arround 10% It will give you arround 160k most 200k at same time
Tailypo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILr8RYfP,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-05-30T20:26:07.859+0000)
Even if you wanted to lowball it for no reason, even just 700k would be more than enough for consistent queues.
The fact is youre still looking at at least 1.3m consistent queuers. Almost everyone that plays ranked actively plays it and almost exclusively plays it.
Why on earth would you assume that of 1.6 million active players (annually), 1.3 million are queuing consistently? That's absurd.
I played ranked until I hit gold, and I feel little motivation to queue more than once a month at this point.
Starcraft243ver5 votes[{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILr8RYfP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-30T12:37:14.213+0000)
MMR needs to die. Placements need to die. What we need is an actual ELO system in which participants are well within 10% points of the highest or lowest performer. Fuck it if timers are made longer because of it. I can browse porn and jackoff while I wait if need be. I want to have fun in a videogame and 10+ losses in a row in a game is NOT fun!
mmr IS elo ... wtf.
Ragnaveil4 votesPeople tend to gloss over that detail. Its a bit old. ELO works with 1v1 based scenarios (It was created for Chess, so let that sink in), we need a different system.
Ambitious Minnow1 votesPeople tend to gloss over that detail. Its a bit old. ELO works with 1v1 based scenarios (It was created for Chess, so let that sink in), we need a different system.
You are the only decently informed person in this thread so far. The Elo(lower case, it's named after a person) system is designed to provide a fair accounting of someone's skill level... to determine starting placement in tournaments. That's it! It doesn't affect how fast or slow people move up a ladder, in any way shape or form. There is nothing even close to people placing well and then getting increased points for wins, lol. In any chess tournament, the point gains and losses for win, draw, or tie are identical. Throughout the tournament, players are matched based on how many points they have accumulated in the tournament(not their Elo rank, again, that's only for starting positions aka seeding). The Elo system isn't designed in any way to measure skill in a team game, and the way these gaming companies use it has literally nothing to do with the way it's used professionally and what it's designed for.
You can't justify the MMR system without talking in circles, every time someone points out one of it's many failings, people just default back to the tired line of how it's adjusting. ?? Nope, it's just not suitable for the purpose it's being used for.
haaaaaaalp2 votesYou can easily justify elo: every other system is worse. No system will ever be suitable for a 5 v 5 moba. You just have to take the best of many flawed systems.
Ambitious Minnow1 votesYou can easily justify elo: every other system is worse. No system will ever be suitable for a 5 v 5 moba. You just have to take the best of many flawed systems.
No?
haaaaaaalp1 votesWhat else will you use? Every other system is worse.
Starcraft243ver1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILr8RYfP,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-05-31T02:05:50.889+0000)
You are the only decently informed person in this thread so far. The Elo(lower case, it's named after a person) system is designed to provide a fair accounting of someone's skill level... to determine starting placement in tournaments. That's it! It doesn't affect how fast or slow people move up a ladder, in any way shape or form. There is nothing even close to people placing well and then getting increased points for wins, lol. In any chess tournament, the point gains and losses for win, draw, or tie are identical. Throughout the tournament, players are matched based on how many points they have accumulated in the tournament(not their Elo rank, again, that's only for starting positions aka seeding). The Elo system isn't designed in any way to measure skill in a team game, and the way these gaming companies use it has literally nothing to do with the way it's used professionally and what it's designed for.
You can't justify the MMR system without talking in circles, every time someone points out one of it's many failings, people just default back to the tired line of how it's adjusting. ?? Nope, it's just not suitable for the purpose it's being used for.
Every win and lose change your elo in chess.
Unker1393 votes[{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILr8RYfP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-30T12:37:14.213+0000)
MMR needs to die. Placements need to die. What we need is an actual ELO system in which participants are well within 10% points of the highest or lowest performer. Fuck it if timers are made longer because of it. I can browse porn and jackoff while I wait if need be. I want to have fun in a videogame and 10+ losses in a row in a game is NOT fun!
You realize that elobrating are on a bell curve and that 65% of the entire player base is probably within 10% of each other. With your proposal anyone between bronze 1 and gold 3 would fall within range of being matched together.
If we move back to a pure elo ranking, you would have to accept that unless you are really good or really bad, you could move from gold to bronze or bronze to gold over a weekend just from a streak.
Dingding1231 votesAnd honestly: neither are 10+ undeserved wins in a row.
Thilmer6 votesThe obvious reason why Riot doesn't want to show the famous MMR and explain how it works is just because people will literally laugh at their faces about how absurd their system is.
Just take into account things like "promos" or restarting everyone's Rank every year… that's absolutly stupid and obviously a proper ranking system would never have those things.
The thigh guy6 votesThe obvious reason why Riot doesn't want to show the famous MMR and explain how it works is just because people will literally laugh at their faces about how absurd their system is.
Just take into account things like "promos" or restarting everyone's Rank every year… that's absolutly stupid and obviously a proper ranking system would never have those things.
Honestly. The reset I’m Fine with. Promos are kinda dumb, but whatever.
The main thing I don’t like is how there are no close games anymore.
In the past 50 games I’ve played all of them have been
Dope Solo2 votesWhatever is going on this season, the matchmaker is utter garbage and it hasn't gone unnoticed. There have been many posts on this same obseration over the last several months. My advice would be to either watch for the upcoming dev corner lost, or tweet directly and ask a rooter to comment on the existing state of matchmaking.
La Belle Sauvage1 votesI loathe placements every year. First thing that should be Improved regarding solo ranked q
AstroFerrari 5 votesI'm sometimes really curious as to why I have to face mid gold players (in the last few days I've faced people as high as Gold 1) just to get to Silver 1
5050BS5 votesIm in S2 and commonly have enemy teams that are all G4.
its like WTF THEN WHY AM I NOT G4?!
Pandeonor1 votesThe difference in MMR and skill between G4 and S2 is not very high, so there is a luck-factor. I guess between 2 ranks above and 2 ranks below everyones "average rank" is possible to oscillate. An average S2 player can get G4 or actually be in S4. imho
Infernape2 votesMMR needs to be visible. DotA does it just fine. At least from then I can see just how bad a match was based on the MMRs of the people that were in said match.
Or I'd be able to see my own MMR in relation to my division.
DeadUnborn1 voteswhat people don't understand when they make this posts, is that MMR is relative to the rest of the server's player base. If you had actual MMR showing up, it would change day to day depending on the player count flux and performance variation. MMR decides who are you going to be matched with as well as lp gains and loses after a game. Lp on the other hand keeps track of your actual track climbing the ladder.
On the other hand, I kinda agree placements are BS. They are in place because they make players be more engaged with ranked, since they keep you hooked trying to climb up. They are a buffer so you get to you actual max LP lower, as well as being a psychological incentive and means of achievement
The thigh guy1 voteswhat people don't understand when they make this posts, is that MMR is relative to the rest of the server's player base. If you had actual MMR showing up, it would change day to day depending on the player count flux and performance variation. MMR decides who are you going to be matched with as well as lp gains and loses after a game. Lp on the other hand keeps track of your actual track climbing the ladder.
On the other hand, I kinda agree placements are BS. They are in place because they make players be more engaged with ranked, since they keep you hooked trying to climb up. They are a buffer so you get to you actual max LP lower, as well as being a psychological incentive and means of achievement
That the problem. This is how the match making works.
So when I’m say. Silver, and getting matched with players who are platinum, it’s because we have similar mmr. So why in the fuck am I not platinum or why are they not silver?
I can que with people in that big a rank discrepancy. Why can I be matched with them?
DeadUnborn1 votesthat is not how it works. For each lane it tried to pair people of similar MMR, then it tries to average both teams mmr so they have 50% win rate. The probem is that if your mmr in a certain division is too high cause you have won many games in a row, it matches you with shit players to make up for it, making it harder to win
The thigh guy1 votesthat is not how it works. For each lane it tried to pair people of similar MMR, then it tries to average both teams mmr so they have 50% win rate. The probem is that if your mmr in a certain division is too high cause you have won many games in a row, it matches you with shit players to make up for it, making it harder to win
Then they should be using mmr to determine your ranking. :/
That’s the problem.
They use mmr for matchmaking. But use this ranking system for some reason. So if you are going through say bronze and go on a huge winning streak, you suddenly get matched against gold players.
So if I’m good enough to be matched with gold players. Why am I not just gold then? :/
You’re throwing me into gold games. But just saying “nah, you aren’t gold. Good luck”
DeadUnborn1 votesas I said previously MMR is relative to other players. It would feel really shitty to be "plat" one day and then not play for a week and when you log in again you are gold because everyone else, say, kept playing and increased their MMR. It almost never happens unless you are diamond that you will be placed with players 2 divisions above you. Please show me the game where that happened
The thigh guy1 votesas I said previously MMR is relative to other players. It would feel really shitty to be "plat" one day and then not play for a week and when you log in again you are gold because everyone else, say, kept playing and increased their MMR. It almost never happens unless you are diamond that you will be placed with players 2 divisions above you. Please show me the game where that happened
Except that’s not how it happens. Because remember. Every game 5 people win, and 5 people lose.
So everyone around you changes places sure. But you aren’t effected.
Here’s a post for you with a screen shot of the miss matching bs riots system causes.
DeadUnborn1 votesbut remember the more you consistently win the more your mmr goes up. Not everyone has the same winrate. Also the influx of players changes (total gamer population in ranked for a server) which changes mmr as well
Also sorry I wasn't clear enough, but I need a recent game where that happened so I can look up the low rank match history to see what is going on. For example you could have gotten a smurf that was trolling, or premades, or a legitimate shitty roll of the dice with matchmaking, but unless this happens on a consistent basis I really don't see how it is a problem
The thigh guy1 votesbut remember the more you consistently win the more your mmr goes up. Not everyone has the same winrate. Also the influx of players changes (total gamer population in ranked for a server) which changes mmr as well
Also sorry I wasn't clear enough, but I need a recent game where that happened so I can look up the low rank match history to see what is going on. For example you could have gotten a smurf that was trolling, or premades, or a legitimate shitty roll of the dice with matchmaking, but unless this happens on a consistent basis I really don't see how it is a problem
That game wasn’t a smurf, or a troll. That was legitimately an iron player in a game with a gold player. These player can’t que together by an entire 2 full ranks. There is no actual reason they should be matched together.
Ambitious Minnow1 votesas I said previously MMR is relative to other players. It would feel really shitty to be "plat" one day and then not play for a week and when you log in again you are gold because everyone else, say, kept playing and increased their MMR. It almost never happens unless you are diamond that you will be placed with players 2 divisions above you. Please show me the game where that happened
The current system, that's the one that feels really shitty.
Tahngarthor1 votesthat is not how it works. For each lane it tried to pair people of similar MMR, then it tries to average both teams mmr so they have 50% win rate. The probem is that if your mmr in a certain division is too high cause you have won many games in a row, it matches you with shit players to make up for it, making it harder to win
And this concept theoretically limits win and shiat streaks. Theoretically. :p
Emperor Dusty1 votesI ALWAYS GET QUED WITH A NEW PLAYER WHEN IM IN MY FING SILVER 1 promos it never fails! Riot fix your damn game
Light Burner1 votesWe dont usually see eye to eye Thigh guy but on this i agree with you completely. The system is so dumb its insane.
Jennifer4201 votesi mean the entire system makes no sense. "hey we have a competitive mode based on mmr, a number THAT YOU CANT SEE" "but hey here is lp, which tells you absolutely nothing! also enjoy getting match with people in your team that are 2 entire leagues below you WHICH IS USUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DUOQ WITH!"
Tahngarthor1 votesi mean the entire system makes no sense. "hey we have a competitive mode based on mmr, a number THAT YOU CANT SEE" "but hey here is lp, which tells you absolutely nothing! also enjoy getting match with people in your team that are 2 entire leagues below you WHICH IS USUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DUOQ WITH!"
The real point of the league/LP system is to give you a tangible goal to chase, while the MMR is there to theoretically ensure that you always have a fair shake in each match. Riot's perspecctive is that latter number isn't important to be known as long as it's doing its job, while the LP system (theoretically) is more effective at motivating you to work hard and improve.
Not necessairly saying I agree with it, but I do understand the intent.