I hope more pro players pick non meta champs and utterly fail with them

RedCyclone·Mar 27, 2015·35 votes·3,091 views

Garen changes FINALLY pushed forward to PBE If more champs failed in games what are considered rurrly rurrly important they may actually remember they exist

45 Comments

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 201523 votes

the community tells riot, the cooldown is absurd pretty much since his rework a few month before season 3.

some chinese pro picks him, utterly fails with him, and theyre like "oh hey. his ult cooldown might be too long". dont get me wrong, im happy about the buff, but that attitude of only working on champs when theyre picked in pro play leads to a vicious cycle, of unpopular champs never being picked, because they need work, and theyre never/rarely worked on, because theyre never picked.

LXIIMar 27, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-27T21:40:41.676+0000)

the community tells riot, the cooldown is absurd pretty much since his rework a few month before season 3.

some chinese pro picks him, utterly fails with him, and theyre like "oh hey. his ult cooldown might be too long". dont get me wrong, im happy about the buff, but that attitude of only working on champs when theyre picked in pro play leads to a vicious cycle, of unpopular champs never being picked, because they need work, and theyre never/rarely worked on, because theyre never picked.

The game has to be balanced on a certain level, when pro play is a factor that's always gonna be the level they balance for.

DisasterSolaMar 27, 201520 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-27T21:52:09.285+0000)

The game has to be balanced on a certain level, when pro play is a factor that's always gonna be the level they balance for.

Balancing for professional play and ONLY taking professional play into consideration are two different things. Garen is a good example of that; Community says his ult is to long: Riot plugs their ears and yells "LALALALALALA" Pro says his ult is to long: Riot rushes to fix what they now see is a problem

Its an attitude which fosters terrible balance and elitism.

LXIIMar 27, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Balancing for professional play and ONLY taking professional play into consideration are two different things. Garen is a good example of that; Community says his ult is to long: Riot plugs their ears and yells "LALALALALALA" Pro says his ult is to long: Riot rushes to fix what they now see is a problem

Its an attitude which fosters terrible balance and elitism.

They're almost the exact same thing.. The community complains about a lot of stuff (Kat, Yi, Riven, LeBlanc, Sion, Sejuani, the list goes on and on) and if they "balanced" all of them based on what the community thought was right the game would be mayhem. I get what you're saying, but they can't please everyone.

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 201514 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-27T22:21:15.058+0000)

They're almost the exact same thing.. The community complains about a lot of stuff (Kat, Yi, Riven, LeBlanc, Sion, Sejuani, the list goes on and on) and if they "balanced" all of them based on what the community thought was right the game would be mayhem. I get what you're saying, but they can't please everyone.

but the cooldown on garens ult was pretty obviously stupid. there is a lot of stuff that is debatable, but looking at his kit compared to other ults with similar cooldowns. yea, no.

Knight SoIaire Mar 27, 20152 votes

in the end the problem isnt who dictates it pros can cry about whatever they want and it wont be ballanced accordingly

the problem is lack of input pro games are rare and obserwed by riot, they provide good quality feedback

so riot can ballance the game around it since its proven to be reliable estimate of how champion does in game

but there is no other place to actualy get the same input pbe is just for testing for bugs, nobody realy plays seriousl there while solo q is full of trolls afks, and other problems riot needs to fix

since we lack an actual testing grounds we face 2 things -game is ballanced around lcs since its the best input riot can get -if riot ballances something that isnt in the lcs they base themselves on how it feels to play at their office, so many problems they try to fix backfires

so our champions are never realy ballanced since ballance in lol is dynamic, and there is no place to get enough data to actualy ballance all that stuff

DisasterSolaMar 28, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-27T22:21:15.058+0000)

They're almost the exact same thing.. The community complains about a lot of stuff (Kat, Yi, Riven, LeBlanc, Sion, Sejuani, the list goes on and on) and if they "balanced" all of them based on what the community thought was right the game would be mayhem. I get what you're saying, but they can't please everyone.

No, but riot can acknowledge problems. If a majority of the community says something - like lee sin is a problem, zed is broken, and nidalee needs many nerfs - then chances are they NEED to be looked at.

Zed and nidalee have like an 80% pick rate in LCS, too.

KaisadiIIaMar 28, 20157 votes

The community complains about a lot of stuff (Kat, Yi, Riven, LeBlanc, Sion, Sejuani, the list goes on and on)

They nerfed Kata (Cooldown to 90 from 60). They nerfed Yi (%Damage on E reduced to 10 from 9-15 or something like that). They nerfed Riven (Damage on her Q, Shield duration reduced to 1.5 from 3 seconds). They nerfed LeBlanc (Removed her silence). They nerfed Sion (E mana cost increased. Q damage vs. monsters reduced, E damage with a minion reduced). They nerfed Sejuani (W damage reduced, R movement speed slow reduced).

Try again.

manbearswineMar 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-27T22:21:15.058+0000)

They're almost the exact same thing.. The community complains about a lot of stuff (Kat, Yi, Riven, LeBlanc, Sion, Sejuani, the list goes on and on) and if they "balanced" all of them based on what the community thought was right the game would be mayhem. I get what you're saying, but they can't please everyone.

except that both kat and yi got nerfed due to what they did in solo/lower elos,both of them got nerfed(yi quite a while ago) without having much competitive presence(btw shaco is on that list too),le blanc is an exceptionally toxic champion,she shouldn't even be viable(she has poppy levels of counterplay,hell,even less,at least poppy can be ganked) and is just clear favoritism because she is flashy(it's disgusting really),sion and sejuani(and amumu) you might have a point about,riven I'm not too sure about.

Honestly it's clear riot does a lot of winrate balancing(as in,if winrate is >49%,the champ is fine,no matter if both competitive players and pub players(generally visible through popularity) think it to be utterly useless),and it's pretty horrible right now,worst is people are so stupid they would actually argue for it,do you seriously want to tell me you want an ashe on your team? you know,the adc with no damage,no mobility,no burst,no dueling power who has a bunch of slows and an ult which can be dodged(walking/mobility) or outright removed with mikaels,oh,and blackshielded,who also has plenty of horrible matchups in bot lane,yes,I'm sure everyone is just yelling at their teammates "GO ASHE 51% WINRATE ITS OP".

Maybe if the community wasn't so stupid and wouldn't be so obsessed with this stupid number riot would actually stop balancing around it.

SEKAIMar 28, 20151 votes

The game has to be balanced on a certain level, when pro play is a factor that's always gonna be the level they balance for.

There is a difference between "balance in the highest level" and "balance around pro picks".

One is good and the other is bad, I will let you guess which one's which.

manbearswineMar 28, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-27T21:52:09.285+0000)

The game has to be balanced on a certain level, when pro play is a factor that's always gonna be the level they balance for.

You're not actually disagreeing with him,you are in fact almost saying the same thing.

Champion not seeing competitive play=pros consider him bad->if you balance by the competitive scene he needs buffs.

What this thread is about is that it's not simply enough for the competitive scene to think a champion sucks,they also need to pick it and actively suck on that champ in a game,and that's stupid and unnecessary,so you aren't actually arguing with him(I think?),or even adding on to anything he said.

LXIIMar 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You're not actually disagreeing with him,you are in fact almost saying the same thing.

Champion not seeing competitive play=pros consider him bad->if you balance by the competitive scene he needs buffs.

What this thread is about is that it's not simply enough for the competitive scene to think a champion sucks,they also need to pick it and actively suck on that champ in a game,and that's stupid and unnecessary,so you aren't actually arguing with him(I think?),or even adding on to anything he said.

No you just dug really deep to try and find a loophole, I am in fact actively disagreeing. You can only play 12 champs per match, and only so many options are available per role. Out of like 130~ champs? That means on average you have a pool of like 10 champs available. 1 out of those 10 is always gonna be the favorite. We're not seeing Garen enough? Who the hell cares? We never see Miss Fortune and nobody says a word, do you know why? Because she was never a faceroll champion that is now useless due to meta. People just want their cheese picks back, and there's a reason they're gone to begin with.

manbearswineMar 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-28T23:45:46.277+0000)

No you just dug really deep to try and find a loophole, I am in fact actively disagreeing.

I don't see how,he's (not exactly,but still) saying the game should be balanced around competitive,just that not picked=is weak,and the complaint is that riot wants it to be picked and fail,creating a problematic cycle,as pros generally know it will fail and won't pick it to begin with,both of you are focusing on the game being balanced around competitive play(or lack thereof it).

You can only play 12 champs per match, and only so many options are available per role. Out of like 130~ champs? That means on average you have a pool of like 10 champs available. 1 out of those 10 is always gonna be the favorite.

don't exaggerate it,team comps and playstles exists,so generally 3(to 5) are the favorites,and they are considered op,and generally get nerfed sooner or later.

We're not seeing Garen enough? Who the hell cares?

Garen is just an example,sure,the top picks rotate(from lee to j4 to kha and back(kappa),at least we have some tanks now) and that's the way it should be,but you have some champions sitting on the bench with 0 competitive play,completely ignored by riot,left to rot,possibly for years(lux is another great example of that,ashe is another),now you see some people play/enjoy those champions,do you know how great it feels to keep getting ignored when your favorite champion has been trash for more than a year? then you open to see changes on pbe and see a bunch of ahri buffs,cause apparently she hasn't made the meta her bitch for long enough? For every champion you can find someone who mains him(apparently even for garen),so a lot of people care about these forsaken champions.

We never see Miss Fortune and nobody says a word, do you know why? Because she was never a faceroll champion that is now useless due to meta. People just want their cheese picks back, and there's a reason they're gone to begin with.

People don't complain about Miss fortune because they basically have given up hope,or these threads just don't get upvoted(yeah probably this option),you know what,if someone picked miss fortune,failed on it,and she got buffed on pbe,we would probably see the exact same thread about her.

LXIIMar 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how,he's (not exactly,but still) saying the game should be balanced around competitive,just that not picked=is weak,and the complaint is that riot wants it to be picked and fail,creating a problematic cycle,as pros generally know it will fail and won't pick it to begin with,both of you are focusing on the game being balanced around competitive play(or lack thereof it).

don't exaggerate it,team comps and playstles exists,so generally 3(to 5) are the favorites,and they are considered op,and generally get nerfed sooner or later.

Garen is just an example,sure,the top picks rotate(from lee to j4 to kha and back(kappa),at least we have some tanks now) and that's the way it should be,but you have some champions sitting on the bench with 0 competitive play,completely ignored by riot,left to rot,possibly for years(lux is another great example of that,ashe is another),now you see some people play/enjoy those champions,do you know how great it feels to keep getting ignored when your favorite champion has been trash for more than a year? then you open to see changes on pbe and see a bunch of ahri buffs,cause apparently she hasn't made the meta her bitch for long enough? For every champion you can find someone who mains him(apparently even for garen),so a lot of people care about these forsaken champions.

People don't complain about Miss fortune because they basically have given up hope,or these threads just don't get upvoted(yeah probably this option),you know what,if someone picked miss fortune,failed on it,and she got buffed on pbe,we would probably see the exact same thread about her.

Jesus, no, just no. You're still just fishing for some wording here that makes you correct. His view was that it was bullshit that they don't listen to the community and only pay attention to pro picks, my view was "well that sucks, cause most of the community is garbage, so the pros get the balance". Simple as that, now give it up.

And as for most of your rant there are 130 GOD DAMN CHAMPIONS some of them are gonna get ignored for a year or so. That's just how it is, they don't have time to update one champ every 2-3 days, which is basically what your timeline of a year is asking for. Since they obviously can't work on them all at once they're gonna have to find a way to figure out which ones are more urgent, which ones are the most relevant to the game.... I wonder where they could get that information?!

Edit: the answer to that is from the professional games. Was gonna leave it on the cliffhanger there, but after your whole "No, I think you agree with him, and here's why" argument I wasn't sure you would understand. So there it is.

manbearswineMar 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T12:40:10.657+0000)

Jesus, no, just no. You're still just fishing for some wording here that makes you correct. His view was that it was bullshit that they don't listen to the community and only pay attention to pro picks, my view was "well that sucks, cause most of the community is garbage, so the pros get the balance". Simple as that, now give it up.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-27T21:40:41.676+0000)

but that attitude of only working on champs when theyre picked in pro play leads to a vicious cycle,** of unpopular champs never being picked, because they need work**, and theyre never/rarely worked on, because theyre never picked.

What wording am I fishing for exactly? This is what he said,that they need champions to actively fail competitively before buffing them,sure the first part of his post sorta calls them to listen to the community(it's arguable,can be said that it was obvious that his ult cd was too big,which frankly it kinda is),but the rest is still about balancing around competitive play,you are wrong about my fishing or twisting words,you both(arguably,he hasn't stated it in the most obvious manner,but it's still there) agree about balancing around competitive play.

And as for most of your rant there are 130 GOD DAMN CHAMPIONS some of them are gonna get ignored for a year or so. That's just how it is, they don't have time to update one champ every 2-3 days, which is basically what your timeline of a year is asking for.

Really? when was the time lux/ashe had a presence right about anywhere(which were the example I used)? when was the time brand/zyra had a presence anywhere? over a year ago? good,I made my point. So while lux/ashe have remained trash for god knows how long,kassadin has been getting nerfs,buffs,reworks,more nerfs,more buffs,and you know what the best thing is? all this time the guy had a toxic play pattern,they don't,how does this make any sense? But yeah,kass is an exteme case,let's take something more common: "Hey riot,can we talk about lux? she's been really bad for quite a while with how incredibly strong assassins are,and the amount of counters and bad matchup she has,she could really use some buffs" -"Can't talk right now,busy compensating ahri"

LEGIT

Since they obviously can't work on them all at once they're gonna have to find a way to figure out which ones are more urgent, which ones are the most relevant to the game.... I wonder where they could get that information?!

Edit: the answer to that is from the professional games. Was gonna leave it on the cliffhanger there, but after your whole "No, I think you agree with him, and here's why" argument I wasn't sure you would understand. So there it is.

I keep agreeing the game should (mostly) be balanced around competitive play,I also keep saying that no competitive play=needs buffs,do you really disagree with that? let me guess,you do,disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing,like you have been doing this entire discussion,but sure,I'm the one here who "wouldn't understand",when you just refuse to understand the whole basis behind almost everything in this entire thread is balancing around competitive play,but you keep on arguing that you're the only one claiming that,when in fact everyone is doing the same.

LXIIMar 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

but that attitude of only working on champs when theyre picked in pro play leads to a vicious cycle,** of unpopular champs never being picked, because they need work**, and theyre never/rarely worked on, because theyre never picked.

What wording am I fishing for exactly? This is what he said,that they need champions to actively fail competitively before buffing them,sure the first part of his post sorta calls them to listen to the community(it's arguable,can be said that it was obvious that his ult cd was too big,which frankly it kinda is),but the rest is still about balancing around competitive play,you are wrong about my fishing or twisting words,you both(arguably,he hasn't stated it in the most obvious manner,but it's still there) agree about balancing around competitive play.

Really? when was the time lux/ashe had a presence right about anywhere(which were the example I used)? when was the time brand/zyra had a presence anywhere? over a year ago? good,I made my point. So while lux/ashe have remained trash for god knows how long,kassadin has been getting nerfs,buffs,reworks,more nerfs,more buffs,and you know what the best thing is? all this time the guy had a toxic play pattern,they don't,how does this make any sense? But yeah,kass is an exteme "Hey riot,can we talk about lux? she's been really bad for quite a while with how incredibly strong assassins are,and the amount of counters and bad matchup she has,she could really use some buffs" -"Can't talk right now,busy compensating ahri"

LEGIT

I keep agreeing the game should (mostly) be balanced around competitive play,I also keep saying that no competitive play=needs buffs,do you really disagree with that? let me guess,you do,disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing,like you have been doing this entire discussion,but sure,I'm the one here who "wouldn't understand",when you just refuse to understand the whole basis behind almost everything in this entire thread is balancing around competitive play,buy you keep on arguing that you're the only one claiming that,when in fact everyone is doing the same.

I'm just gonna say it already, you're an idiot.. sorry man. The guy that said the champs need to be picked and fail was very obviously not suggesting that as an actual solution, more pointing out that the fact that he got owned was the reason for the champ getting attention, and that he's mad that it takes that for the champ to get attention. Essentially saying that Riot needs to not just look into that, but listen to the (sarcasm) valuable input of the "community".

Yes, I do disagree, just because a champion doesn't see professional play doesn't mean they should just automatically get a buff. You know why Lux isn't seeing pro level play? Because none of the team comps call for her skill set. That simple. Katarina barely saw pro play until the end of this split, nobody was screaming for buffs there. There are certain strategies for winning games that are completely different than the way you and I play the game.

There's a reason we aren't the balance team at Riot.. because it isn't our job. Because we don't have all the facts on it like they do. They're not out to screw everyone over, because why would that make sense?

manbearswineMar 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=00000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T14:51:28.902+0000)

I'm just gonna say it already, you're an idiot.. sorry man.

Yes,idiots tend to think that way,in your books either i'm stupid or you are,too bad reality isn't as convenient as the whatever is going on in that empty head of yours.

The guy that said the champs need to be picked and fail was very obviously not suggesting that as an actual solution, more pointing out that the fact that he got owned was the reason for the champ getting attention, and that he's mad that it takes that for the champ to get attention. Essentially saying that Riot needs to not just look into that, but listen to the (sarcasm) valuable input of the "community".

No,what he meant is what he said,champions who aren't picked are getting ignored,and to a very large extent that's how it is,is there much community talk about zyra? no,has she been picked competitively? no,does she need buffs? yes,does riot care? no,why? because she isn't picked competitively(at least that's what he is saying,I don't think that's why she is ignored).

Yes, I do disagree, just because a champion doesn't see professional play doesn't mean they should just automatically get a buff. You know why Lux isn't seeing pro level play? Because none of the team comps call for her skill set. That simple.

And yet they do call for the skillset of xerath? That's not even it,they don't call for her skillset because her skillset is just underwhelming,because...she needs buffs.

Katarina barely saw pro play until the end of this split, nobody was screaming for buffs there. There are certain strategies for winning games that are completely different than the way you and I play the game.

Katarina has a long history of pubstomping,which I actually do believe needs to be taken into consideration in the cases of some extremes(that's why I put "(mostly)balanced around competitive play"),so that's why no one was asking for buffs,that's not even it,that's why I keep insisting on "no presence anywhere",that is low pick/ban rate both competitive and otherwise(to take into account picks which are especially good in solo q),and that's what separates the ashe/lux from kat,they are considered shit everywhere(Though I don't want to get much into the latest kat nerfs,so before that).

There's a reason we aren't the balance team at Riot.. because it isn't our job. Because we don't have all the facts on it like they do. They're not out to screw everyone over, because why would that make sense?

The community,as overdramatic whiny and exaggerative as it is is part of their info,and community feedback isn't as worthless as you claim it to be,sure you need to know how to read,for example what I would get from this thread is another complaint about the favorites they play in balancing(as in the amount of attention ahri gets compared to lux for example),besides,things like the existence of kalista make me question the competence of the balance team overall.

LXIIMar 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes,idiots tend to think that way,in your books either i'm stupid or you are,too bad reality isn't as convenient as the whatever is going on in that empty head of yours.

No,what he meant is what he said,champions who aren't picked are getting ignored,and to a very large extent that's how it is,is there much community talk about zyra? no,has she been picked competitively? no,does she need buffs? yes,does riot care? no,why? because she isn't picked competitively(at least that's what he is saying,I don't think that's why she is ignored).

And yet they do call for the skillset of xerath? That's not even it,they don't call for her skillset because her skillset is just underwhelming,because...she needs buffs.

Katarina has a long history of pubstomping,which I actually do believe needs to be taken into consideration in the cases of some extremes(that's why I put "(mostly)balanced around competitive play"),so that's why no one was asking for buffs,that's not even it,that's why I keep insisting on "no presence anywhere",that is low pick/ban rate both competitive and otherwise(to take into account picks which are especially good in solo q),and that's what separates the ashe/lux from kat,they are considered shit everywhere(Though I don't want to get much into the latest kat nerfs,so before that).

The community,as overdramatic whiny and exaggerative as it is is part of their info,and community feedback isn't as worthless as you claim it to be,sure you need to know how to read,for example what I would get from this thread is another complaint about the favorites they play in balancing(as in the amount of attention ahri gets compared to lux for example),besides,things like the existence of kalista make me question the competence of the balance team overall.

Done.. I think the problem here is that you read too far into what that kid could have been trying to say then formed an argument out of it. Either way, that's neither here nor there, the point still stands that popular champs are always going to require for the team to be on top of them and keeping them in line. What would be the point of Lux getting worked on while Ahri was still going on rampages? Every champ will have their time, they're obv not just gonna drop support from certain champs, but if they're a garbage can champ that has no place in the current meta (Talking to you Garen) then they're gonna be waiting til all of the viable options are taken care of.

manbearswineMar 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T15:58:59.862+0000)

Done..

Well,so we are done insulting each other,I never get why people like doing that in the first place when there's really nothing aimed at aggravating them in the first place.

I think the problem here is that you read too far into what that kid could have been trying to say then formed an argument out of it.

And I think you are too quick to completely dismiss it in it's entirety,I agree that garen probably didn't get buffed because he did poorly in that game,I also don't think riot needs a champion to actively fail competitively to buff it(though actually,it probably helps move it up the ladder),but the core notion,that some champions don't see competitive play and continue getting ignored I definitely agree with.

Either way, that's neither here nor there, the point still stands that popular champs are always going to require for the team to be on top of them and keeping them in line. What would be the point of Lux getting worked on while Ahri was still going on rampages?

The thing is,the reason why ahri keeps on getting ramapages is because she was buffed over dfg removal,then to make things even worse(to make it clear,she would still be REALLY strong even without it) they released lucent echo which is tailored for her,but the most important thing is: even if ahri was left completely untouched after the removal of dfg she would still be a hell lot stronger than lux,yes still she got compensated,and lux ignored,again(lux and ahri are just examples here,meanwhile kassadin has buffs on pbe,then probably will be op again,then will get nerfed,then buffed,then the cycle of "everything is about kassadin,no matter how toxic he is" continues).

Every champ will have their time, they're obv not just gonna drop support from certain champs, but if they're a garbage can champ that has no place in the current meta (Talking to you Garen) then they're gonna be waiting til all of the viable options are taken care of.

I agree that some champions(garen among them) might be...less worthy of focus,but take kass vs ashe for example,kass has a really obnoxious play pattern,whereas ashe really doesn't,nor is ashe some spin2win faceroller,yet kass get's much more attention(buffs and nerfs combined),how does that make any sense whatsoever? It's not just that,the balance team isn't perfect,so as you've said expecting them to address any and all champions within 2-3 days is stupid(the cryout after kassadins rework was disgusting,how wrong they were even more disgusting),but I think that for some champions(like lux,ashe,brand,zyra) their "messup time" is completely done,these champions deserved hard buffs months ago,then you go on pbe and see ahri buffs cause "dfg is removed",this is just obnoxious,there is nothing to justify it(aside from #lcsbigplays).

LXIIMar 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well,so we are done insulting each other,I never get why people like doing that in the first place when there's really nothing aimed at aggravating them in the first place.

And I think you are too quick to completely dismiss it in it's entirety,I agree that garen probably didn't get buffed because he did poorly in that game,I also don't think riot needs a champion to actively fail competitively to buff it(though actually,it probably helps move it up the ladder),but the core notion,that some champions don't see competitive play and continue getting ignored I definitely agree with.

The thing is,the reason why ahri keeps on getting ramapages is because she was buffed over dfg removal,then to make things even worse(to make it clear,she would still be REALLY strong even without it) they released lucent echo which is tailored for her,but the most important thing is: even if ahri was left completely untouched after the removal of dfg she would still be a hell lot stronger than lux,yes still she got compensated,and lux ignored,again(lux and ahri are just examples here,meanwhile kassadin has buffs on pbe,then probably will be op again,then will get nerfed,then buffed,then the cycle of "everything is about kassadin,no matter how toxic he is" continues).

I agree that some champions(garen among them) might be...less worthy of focus,but take kass vs ashe for example,kass has a really obnoxious play pattern,whereas ashe really doesn't,nor is ashe some spin2win faceroller,yet kass get's much more attention(buffs and nerfs combined),how does that make any sense whatsoever? It's not just that,the balance team isn't perfect,so as you've said expecting them to address any and all champions within 2-3 days is stupid(the cryout after kassadins rework was disgusting,how wrong they were even more disgusting),but I think that for some champions(like lux,ashe,brand,zyra) their "messup time" is completely done,these champions deserved hard buffs months ago,then you go on pbe and see ahri buffs cause "dfg is removed",this is just obnoxious,there is nothing to justify it(aside from #lcsbigplays).

I think somewhere along the way I got lost on what your main points were here, after reading this I would like to apologize. You make a lot of good points, but I still think in the long run it just comes down to them having to make a choice somewhere along the way (they're choosing poorly) but honestly how many Lux players are out there? I love her myself, but I've never had an issue laning against just about anybody (only S4 so far this season, it's all Freelo down here) but Ahri is everywhere. The people love Ahri, so sadly she's gonna see the attention. Maybe you should start your own thread and point out some of this though, you word it a lot better and less sarcastically than "Bout time my Garen gets buffed, DEMACIA FOREVER NERDS!", who knows, maybe something will get done.

manbearswineMar 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=RYN Flux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=000000000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T16:48:41.776+0000)

I think somewhere along the way I got lost on what your main points were here, after reading this I would like to apologize.

I guess people are just used to being disrespected and immediately see things that way,I guess it's just the way this forum work,unfortunate as that may be.

You make a lot of good points, but I still think in the long run it just comes down to them having to make a choice somewhere along the way (they're choosing poorly) but honestly how many Lux players are out there? I love her myself,

Quite a lot of people actually(again lux is just an example),I have a friend who is still mad over the state of gankplank,a friend who is still mad over the state of urgot,a friend(who doesn't play anymore,I guess partially due to this) who's not happy with the state of lux,and me,being VERY upset with the current state of zyra(I mostly play her on a smurf at this point,and even there I'm already starting to get frustrated,losing to subpar players over a subpar pick)

but I've never had an issue laning against just about anybody (only S4 so far this season, it's all Freelo down here) but Ahri is everywhere. The people love Ahri, so sadly she's gonna see the attention.

lux used to be very popular at some point as well,people love ahri because ahri is op,nothing new here.

Maybe you should start your own thread and point out some of this though, you word it a lot better and less sarcastically than "Bout time my Garen gets buffed, DEMACIA FOREVER NERDS!", who knows, maybe something will get done.

The sad thing is that's the only way to get upvoted,if you aren't joining the circlejerk on something you will never reach the first page(unless it's some joke or art),I mean for example I could make a very detailed thread over the current state of zyra,and why she's so bad(something which I'm very familiar with),but I'll just get downvoted to hell by swagtalk(hurr durr,me win on zyra,me pro,you bad),and people who lost to zyra that one game they saw her in the last 200 they played(never wondering why it took 200 games to see her,probably blaming it on everyone being sheep),it's just the way these forums work,that's why I still think this is a good thread,sure the reasoning is rather bad,and there's a lot of circlejerk,but the core complaint is very valid,everything else just serves to get it across.

Knight SoIaire Mar 27, 20152 votes

well i think that this attitude is fine they ballance champions around their maximum output dictated by pros

but what is wrong is that current lcs champion pool is rather closed, so riot does not get the rquired amount of input from pros and their entire ballance is fked if something rises in pro scene and needs a nerf, riot wont know if they nerfed it good since pros will drop it if something stays there for too long they wont see it in comparison to everything everything else so they cant estimate its power

so my opinion is that -attitude is fine, it allows for rather proper ballancing -but the enviroment is wrong, since lcs seems to just hug a small pool of champions that rarely change, which is again dictated by riot's ballance

still i root for uol which is known for picking non meta champions, thanks to them we have a shot at better ballance since they provide precious input to riot

SpongeDudeMar 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IKZak4zs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-27T21:40:41.676+0000)

the community tells riot, the cooldown is absurd pretty much since his rework a few month before season 3.

some chinese pro picks him, utterly fails with him, and theyre like "oh hey. his ult cooldown might be too long". dont get me wrong, im happy about the buff, but that attitude of only working on champs when theyre picked in pro play leads to a vicious cycle, of unpopular champs never being picked, because they need work, and theyre never/rarely worked on, because theyre never picked.

That's because the 0.5% of the LoL playerbase ( aka LCS , pro people or nolifers) brings $$ to riot. They dont give a damn about the rest of the community , aka us. That leads to my other point. If a pro player picks lets say Ashe ( the player is godlike with her) and wrecks their entire team, that means ashe needs to be nerfed in Riot's eyes , hello Khazix So skill doesn't matter anymore in this game, only the OP kit of X champion. And the PBE.. its useless. They just have it to test their upcoming changes , but that doesn't mean they listen to the PBE community. Eg , LeeSin " Community backlash" we revert his planed nerfs, meanwhile remember what happened with Veigar . This is pure favoritism and nothing else. Keep it up riot, go downhill

MatezoideMar 27, 20154 votes

Garen got picked in a pro game?

And got slaughtered?

What a surprise.

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Garen got picked in a pro game?

And got slaughtered?

What a surprise.

to be fair, he also played full tank garen as far as ive heared. but yea.

Rinky DinkyMar 28, 20153 votes

Not only that, but he picked Garen INTO a moakai top (counters Garen) and the enemy had a a janna

It was really stupid, and made the champion look bad.

Building him full tank made it even worse

JJI744Mar 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not only that, but he picked Garen INTO a moakai top (counters Garen) and the enemy had a a janna

It was really stupid, and made the champion look bad.

Building him full tank made it even worse

Hm, how does Mao counter Garen? Is it just the high base armor, or does some aspect of Mao's kit make him good vs. Garen?

(Sorry for the slight derail, just curious)

Rinky DinkyMar 28, 20151 votes

Tree man's innate tankyness, along with his cc and ultimate make Garen's just of killing/bullying him really hard. Your ult is useless because of how little it will do due to moakai's % damage reduction, and his healing.

A good moa won't let you kill him, unless you get a good gank off.

In teamfights, he stops you from touching his carries.

Even if Garen did manage to get past him, Janna could say "lol no" and click r. It was just a bad time to pick Garen.

If they wanted a a lane bully, Darius honestly would have been better in theory, because moakai cannot reduce the true damage, and he would have a slightly easier time reaching an enemy mvp due to his E, but even then, Darius suffers from unreliability right now (Buffs will fix that coming next patch), and then it really still would be hard, because janna and moakai would still have mass peel, but darius funnily enough is better for peeling his carries than Garen.

If you have to go full tank as Garen, Darius would be better, because his ult allows him to do damage without building damage.

As said above, this is really just theory crafting, as Darius is weak atm due to all of his innate weaknesses, and his ult only being half finished (They took a core mechanic out of it, and never compensated). He is getting alot of his power back next patch, and thus, he WOULD be a better pick if that game took place on the future patch (Theoretically).

I bring Darius up because while other lane bullies might be more meta, or more balanced (Strong numbers, good kits), they would still struggle against moakai, because he is very hard to push out of lane. In a world where Darius is not underpowered/completed, he would be the best pick to bully moakai, and is not expected to initiate, thus Janna would not hurt him as bad.

StephenizgodMar 28, 20151 votes

It's mostly that Mao makes it incredibly hard for Garen to kill him. Not to mention Mao can get pretty strong just by building tanky so he can deal more damage over time. Garen kind of requires to get ahead or else you are forced into full Tank Garen where you will be useless. Plus Mao can peel for his team against Garen very easily so its more of a bad match-up rather then like a full on counter. Its possible for Garen to win this lane.... by being in other lanes more often then his own.

TotalJerkMar 28, 20151 votes

On top of that, he was initiating at completely inappropriate times and taking far too long to get out.

KazaashiMar 27, 20154 votes

Cause they totally aren't lowering all the ULT CD's of older champions. No it has to be that they only listen to Pro's. Just because 1 pro picks it in a game, doesn't mean Riot will knee jerk react. Coorelation =/= Causation.

Game Development does not happen overnight, and neither do balance changes.

FearEngineerMar 28, 20152 votes

I agree on your reasoning but... really? Just a pure coincidence you think?

Rinky DinkyMar 28, 20158 votes

Yeah, some do.

Viktor picked, bug fix next patch

Karthus picked, Bug fix next patch

Yorick picked, animations cleared up

Garen picked, buffs.

Hecarim picked, slightly fails, buffs.

Twitch picked, fails, buffs

These all happen within the current patch on the week of patching. Too much for a coinkydink.

The only buff that you speak of that does not match up is Nocturnes (As far as I know), and Shen's IF they go through on their word and lower the cd

KaisadiIIaMar 28, 20151 votes

Hecarim picked, slightly fails, buffs.

Twitch picked, fails, buffs

They nerfed Twitch when he was picked last season. Even with the latest buffs, his passive is still weaker than the old one iirc.

And Heca is getting nerfed this patch.

Auz the RipperMar 28, 20151 votes

I still hate how much they hit twitch They hit him so hard his kneecaps imploded Into blackholes

Ariel the CruelMar 28, 20154 votes

To be fair, Riot has confirmed that they intentionally keep Garen from being competitive in the pro scene. So the loss may have alleviated some concerns of him becoming a possible contender.

AbyssionKnightMar 28, 20152 votes

Personally I play a lot of Garen and while it would be nice to have a shorter cd on ult, I never really found it that detrimental to his play style. I'd much rather have kept the old cd but had the damage changed to true damage or just gave it back the 1.4 total attack ratio personally.

Definitely a welcome change, but not something I see as game breaking. So I can kind of see why they didn't touch / think about it.

LlaniteMar 28, 20151 votes

Power of marketing bros.

Yuumi or LoseMar 28, 20151 votes

We can all agree that Bard is shit, right? I mean... Let's be honest.

TotalJerkMar 28, 20151 votes

If you're talking about that LPL game, that Garen player had no idea what the fuck he was doing.

junglerboy16Mar 28, 20151 votes

Garen actually didn't fail, his team failed and his build sucked. He went straight tank and had no followup from his team because they were all behind. If his team hadn't played badly and he had a BC or IE in his build he wouldn't have been nearly as useless and could have at least split pushed like a normal Garen instead of trying to teamfight.

Potato DocMar 29, 20151 votes

To all those who are complaining about riot only listening to professionals

Step 1: play tons of ranked Step 2: Become pro Step 3: Play LCS only with non-meta champs Step 4: profit/get the nerfs and buffs happening

Critmaster GarenMar 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

To all those who are complaining about riot only listening to professionals

Step 1: play tons of ranked Step 2: Become pro Step 3: Play LCS only with non-meta champs Step 4: profit/get the nerfs and buffs happening

becoming a pro, means your job constantly depending on your performance. if you pick non meta champs, youll never even get there. if you pick them in a tournament, just so riot pays attention for once, youre gonna do once or twice, then get kicked from the team.

your logic is backwards. you shouldnt become a pro to get a champion properly balanced. the champions should be properly balanced, so pros have the options of picking them.