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Please this is very unhealthy Riot. The current support is just bull

NGNL Asian··3 votes·1,221 views
Redemption

The teams that gets redemption first tends to win every fight. The Sup items are literally eye of the watcher, locket and rdempetion every single DAMN GAME

Plus it makes 0 sense for things like malz and zyra still doing a crap load of damage despite only have 2 ap items.

Just change redemption and locket or nerf it. Doing 10% maximum hp as true damage to all enemies is just bull. Tbh in my opinion the only reason why Ivern is even consider strong is that he's a jungler aka he can just skip sighstone and he can rush redemption which is really cheap. Redemption stats give him mana regen and hp regen, hence also helping his jg clear, so maybe you should change redemption to like this:

Active: Target an area within 5500 range. After 2. 5 second, call down a beam of light to heal allies for 65 - 490 (based on target's level), deals 10% of maximum health true damage to enemy champions and 250 true damage to minions (120 second cooldown). Can be used while dead. If the caster has one of the support starting items(Spellthiefs, relic shield, ancient coin) then redemption will heal for 0-50(based on level) more hp, howeveer if casted by someone that doesnt have the support starting items, the healing will be reduced by 30-0(based on level).

My planning for the scaling would be lv3: 0 for sup item users. 30 reduction for the non-sup item users lv9: 25 for sup item users. 15 reduction for non sup item users lv15: 50 for sup item users. 0 reduction for non-sup item users

This would make the late game redemption still very useful however not as strong early game. Plus I doubt anyone can get redemption at lv3 anyway. So when a support gets it, it would be around lv9 hence they would get the boost and ivern who rushes it early wouldnt have as much as an impact early and make it more desirable for a support to get it. Or just nerf it for christs sake

Edit: Yes, this is coming from a support main

17 Comments

Alotopatomus2 votes

[deleted]

Spareatick1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree.

I see what you're up to

ƒrostγ2 votes

No one wants to play support so Riot is trying to buff supports and their items to make them stronger, thus getting more support players. This is why most support champs have 50% + winrate.

The Last Ballad3 votes

buff supports and their items

While they did do that technically, they did it at the expense of making every other support item second rate in comparison. Now if it were equally beneficial to your team to actually build for your champ instead of spamming Locket & Redemption, or if Locket and Redemption had a scaling that made them sub-par on champs that they were not intended for(enchanters for Redemption, engage/tank supports for Locket) that would be better. As it is now, the items are nearly just as good on a Zyra or Brand as they are on Soraka or Leona(the natural users of Redemption and Locket respectively). This of course is an issue. Imagine if item 3110 was powerful enough that both Katarina and Jhin could buy it and have it not only help them, but be wasteful and damaging to their team if they bought anything else? That would be nerfed immediately.

And yet we still have item 3190 item 3107 reigning supreme. This is mainly due to their team fighting prowess and the fact that actives are much more obvious power than passives, but it should not be so powerful that not building it when the enemy does severely harms the ability for your team to win teamfights.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Last Ballad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHzfUOrw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-30T03:12:42.264+0000)

While they did do that technically, they did it at the expense of making every other support item second rate in comparison. Now if it were equally beneficial to your team to actually build for your champ instead of spamming Locket & Redemption, or if Locket and Redemption had a scaling that made them sub-par on champs that they were not intended for(enchanters for Redemption, engage/tank supports for Locket) that would be better. As it is now, the items are nearly just as good on a Zyra or Brand as they are on Soraka or Leona(the natural users of Redemption and Locket respectively). This of course is an issue. Imagine if item 3110 was powerful enough that both Katarina and Jhin could buy it and have it not only help them, but be wasteful and damaging to their team if they bought anything else? That would be nerfed immediately.

And yet we still have item 3190 item 3107 reigning supreme. This is mainly due to their team fighting prowess and the fact that actives are much more obvious power than passives, but it should not be so powerful that not building it when the enemy does severely harms the ability for your team to win teamfights.

To be fair, those items are the safest to be in this OP position because they are champion agnostic. If something like Grail or Censor held the same space at Redemption and locket does now, it would ruin champion diversity, because the OP items favor specific supports.

Also, Scaling is an issue that Riot will always have a problem with supports. You can't give Supports tons of stats, without either making them abusive in Solo lane hands, or putting them out of their budget. And the gold deficit is going to vary depending on the level of play. So it's really difficult to balance supports around scaling. (or giving them higher ratios) And that said, some supports like thresh, are so utility focuses that scaling isn't a significant factor.

Honestly, they should be making support champs and items, less reliant on scaling. If you didn't have to worry about that, you would be able to get the utility your team needed, threw items such as redemption. The real issue is that we need more options.

NGNL Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Prince,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHzfUOrw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-04-29T23:39:09.480+0000)

No one wants to play support so Riot is trying to buff supports and their items to make them stronger, thus getting more support players. This is why most support champs have 50% + winrate.

It still doesnt mea that people are almost literally forced to buy this every game

Truly not Gay2 votes

I never buy redemption and do just fine. My go to items in most games are item 3401 item 3504 item 3109

NGNL Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Truly not Gay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHzfUOrw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-29T23:47:52.400+0000)

I never buy redemption and do just fine. My go to items in most games are item 3401 item 3504 item 3109

Seriously? Everytime I dont buy redemption I tend to be the losing side, it's just so impactful doe

Truly not Gay1 votes

It depends on who you are playing. Taric doesn't really get as much use out of redemption as other champions because he already has his ult. My entire build on Taric is focused on keeping 1 person alive. Ardent censer gives them insane amounts of healing because I normally request that they use item 3085 . With the 2 items together, the ADC heals for about 90 on every auto attack early game. Face of the mountain gives them a pretty strong shield on a short cooldown. Knight's Vow gives them 12% damage reduction. I usually get Locket late game for another shield.

In a short burst in late game, I can give my ADC:

12% damage reduction 1450 shield 400 health 11 magic resist 80 armor 35% attack speed

The above stats keep them up long enough for my ult to activate with a 2.5 second channel. Then during my ult, they heal for 105 on every auto and will easily be full health by time the invulnerability expires. By time this happens my W and Q are back up for another 300 health shield and 120 heal.

I could never do this with redemption. Everything I build is in an attempt to keep my ADC alive for the 2.5 seconds it takes my ult to channel. The ADC will never survive that long sitting in the redemption circle waiting for a delayed heal.

NGNL Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Truly not Gay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHzfUOrw,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T08:36:26.165+0000)

It depends on who you are playing. Taric doesn't really get as much use out of redemption as other champions because he already has his ult. My entire build on Taric is focused on keeping 1 person alive. Ardent censer gives them insane amounts of healing because I normally request that they use item 3085 . With the 2 items together, the ADC heals for about 90 on every auto attack early game. Face of the mountain gives them a pretty strong shield on a short cooldown. Knight's Vow gives them 12% damage reduction. I usually get Locket late game for another shield.

In a short burst in late game, I can give my ADC:

12% damage reduction 1450 shield 400 health 11 magic resist 80 armor 35% attack speed

The above stats keep them up long enough for my ult to activate with a 2.5 second channel. Then during my ult, they heal for 105 on every auto and will easily be full health by time the invulnerability expires. By time this happens my W and Q are back up for another 300 health shield and 120 heal.

I could never do this with redemption. Everything I build is in an attempt to keep my ADC alive for the 2.5 seconds it takes my ult to channel. The ADC will never survive that long sitting in the redemption circle waiting for a delayed heal.

That is only one champion. You have to look at the entire pool of supports, and yes, including those "supports". And what happens if your adc is suiciding in by yoloing? If you go overagressive, all that 12%, 1450 shield, 400 health, 11 magic resist, 80 armor, all of that can be simply burst in a matter of seconds by assassins and the entire enemy team. What if your team is too behind? What if the enemy just stall the fight out till your shields and taric ult is down, because that's what you're supposed to do when you see the enemy have taric ult, you usually just dont hit the ones affected by it till it's off invincibility. That's the main weaknesses of supports like taric, janna, soraka, etc. They rely on their team and for your case mainly the adc to do all the damage and to enable them to carry. mage sups offer a lot more right now because you can just push lane in and aim for first turret, as long as the sup buys sighstone it's almost classified as a support now. Mage sups not only gives u lane pressure but also more kill potential and for cases like brand sup and zyra ult, more teamfighting potential while things like janna and soraka tend to just rely on their team completely. Teamwork makes the dream work but you cant always rely on your teammates to do eveerything.(hence I pick sona)

Truly not Gay1 votes

This is actually a smurf account that I play only Taric on. I haven't yet gotten to 30 yet, but my main profile has almost 70% win rate on Taric going primarily solo queue. I started in silver 3 and made it to gold 5 in about 30 games. Upon reaching gold 5, my win rate on Taric was 74%. That is by far the best win rate I have ever had in ranked even though I'm "relying on my teammates." You say I'm relying on my teammates but I like to think that they are relying on me. People always say that supports can't carry games but I have had multiple people thank me for carrying them on Taric.

The weakness you mentioned about just disengaging when Taric ults is true for inexperienced Taric players. People think support is an easy roll to play which is true, but it is extremely difficult to master. I rarely have team fights with a wasted ult on Taric because I wait until both teams are committed to the fight. This is why I build the way that I build. I wait until the enemy fighters, tanks, and assassins are in the middle of my team before I use my ult which is why my build is so important. I have to be able to keep my ADC alive long enough for both teams to be committed to the end before pressing R. If the enemy tries to disengage after I ult, all of their melee champions are going to die which would usually leave them in a 2v5 or a 3v5.

Just as a side note, I don't think I have ever lost to a Sona as Taric. What is Sona good for? Poking early game. What is Taric good at? Staying alive. After about level 6 or 7 this lane just becomes a stomp fest because the one thing Sona is good at doesn't work against Taric.

NGNL Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Truly not Gay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHzfUOrw,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T00:34:56.578+0000)

This is actually a smurf account that I play only Taric on. I haven't yet gotten to 30 yet, but my main profile has almost 70% win rate on Taric going primarily solo queue. I started in silver 3 and made it to gold 5 in about 30 games. Upon reaching gold 5, my win rate on Taric was 74%. That is by far the best win rate I have ever had in ranked even though I'm "relying on my teammates." You say I'm relying on my teammates but I like to think that they are relying on me. People always say that supports can't carry games but I have had multiple people thank me for carrying them on Taric.

The weakness you mentioned about just disengaging when Taric ults is true for inexperienced Taric players. People think support is an easy roll to play which is true, but it is extremely difficult to master. I rarely have team fights with a wasted ult on Taric because I wait until both teams are committed to the fight. This is why I build the way that I build. I wait until the enemy fighters, tanks, and assassins are in the middle of my team before I use my ult which is why my build is so important. I have to be able to keep my ADC alive long enough for both teams to be committed to the end before pressing R. If the enemy tries to disengage after I ult, all of their melee champions are going to die which would usually leave them in a 2v5 or a 3v5.

Just as a side note, I don't think I have ever lost to a Sona as Taric. What is Sona good for? Poking early game. What is Taric good at? Staying alive. After about level 6 or 7 this lane just becomes a stomp fest because the one thing Sona is good at doesn't work against Taric.

I never said anything about your account and level but sometimes even if you land perfeect ultimates that block the enemy's darius ult/fizz ult/zed ult/something, get perfect stuns and combos. You can still lose if your team is just too behind to even kill the enemy team in time

Truly not Gay1 votes

Why does it matter if you are playing support, top, or adc in a game like this? If this is the case it doesn't matter which role you have. If I'm support and my team is way behind I can't keep them alive long enough to get kills and if I'm a carry I can't stay alive long enough or deal enough damage to get kills. It makes no difference where you are.

NGNL Asian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Truly not Gay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IHzfUOrw,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T00:51:32.276+0000)

Why does it matter if you are playing support, top, or adc in a game like this? If this is the case it doesn't matter which role you have. If I'm support and my team is way behind I can't keep them alive long enough to get kills and if I'm a carry I can't stay alive long enough or deal enough damage to get kills. It makes no difference where you are.

Yeah what I mean is that rn the game is so snowbally that if you get redemption first, you have an huge advantage in your game

ShinkoMinori1 votes

u go support and don't buy those items. It's your fault

NGNL Asian1 votes

{quoted}

u go support and don't buy those items. It's your fault

It's not that it's just that I have to literally buy the same thing every game I play sup

Insanity Song1 votes

I have still never bought it once

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