Why is Fizz still given invulnerability on a stupidly low end-game cooldown

Seenan·Jul 23, 2015·38 votes·4,344 views

Arguably the best kind of invulnerability and mobility in the game only surpassed by maybe Kalista..But even Kalista can be damaged while she's mobile..If you can catch her. It's worse when he has CDR + MS. Why's his E almost never been touched, yet Fiora gets her ult invulnerabilty str8 deleted

And I'd like to point out, his dash can 'somehow' avoid spells apparently by dashing at the person even while the spell is midair. Example being if I q'd him as Lux, but he still manages to dash through it, undamaged and last-hit me. It wasn't his missing health% damage or him Eing, I know that for sure.

His ult I care less about aside from the 1:1 AP ratio and long toss-range.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, his passives are also just..too good.

53 Comments

LajneenJul 23, 201513 votes

Dear god Riot please take away these low elo bobs ability to post before they cause another unjustified nerf.

Left Hook LarryJul 24, 20152 votes

Am I low elo too?

Fuck Fizz

Dextix LTJul 24, 20155 votes

Fizz is indeed toxic.

Sincerely, a diamond.

LajneenJul 24, 20153 votes

Diamond 5 Support main on EUNE, you're pretty much Silver on EUW.

HighH1Jul 24, 20154 votes

Europeans are also assholes to other Europeans and think they're better than them. Who knew?

Dextix LTJul 24, 20153 votes

Excuses excuses.

Just looked you up on lolking. Your score is 1818 while mine is 2236. Strage huh? Of course, now you will say somethng like "who cares about lolking, lolking is wrong" But i certainly do not think that someone like you should be insulting my rank when you cant even reach my score by being a gold and assuming i am silver.

Provide me with a west smurf or get yourself with an east smurf and we can play if you wish. I will show you just how much of a silver i am. If you are not scared of course.

CreationFlawJul 23, 20157 votes

It's not invulnerability, all DoT's still affect him. It's just untargetability

SeenanJul 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not invulnerability, all DoT's still affect him. It's just untargetability

Yeah, how many times is a dot that may or may not already be active on Fizz be enough to do something to Fizz? Maybe Cass' Q or Mal E as the most reputable dots. Forgive me if I forget some. You'd have to cast it before he jumps..to which he can dodge it anyway (unless point/click instant abilities). Or baiting it.

IcyPepperJul 23, 20154 votes

TahmKench and now everyone can become invulnerable!

Must be some kind of fish ability.

terkmcJul 24, 20153 votes

Next patch: Nami bubble now grant allied champion invulnerability.

Zorae42Jul 23, 20154 votes

Why's his E almost never been touched, yet Fiora gets her ult invulnerabilty str8 deleted

Yeah, now she gets invulnerability that lasts the same length as Fizz's and is on a 15 sec cd at max rank :/

DJ Di0Jul 23, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, now she gets invulnerability that lasts the same length as Fizz's and is on a 15 sec cd at max rank :/

Are you implying Fiora's new Riposte is as powerful as Fizz's E?

She gets rooted, she doesn't go untargetable, you have to be very precise in your timing, you can't jump through walls, and the ability is still on a higher cooldown.

Zorae42Jul 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IH6Ajp6F,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-07-23T19:42:27.796+0000)

Are you implying Fiora's new Riposte is as powerful as Fizz's E?

She gets rooted, she doesn't go untargetable, you have to be very precise in your timing, you can't jump through walls, and the ability is still on a higher cooldown.

I was just commenting that she still has invulnerability, and that it is comparable to Fizz's. Not better or worse, just comparable. And the fact that they created a new semi-short cd invulnerability ability shows that they think it's a healthy ability. As for your other points:

She's not untargetable, but she is invulnerable and immune to cc. Dots wont affect her (unlike fizz).
You have to be just as precise as Fizz.
It's still a relatively short cd considering how powerful invulnerability is.
Hers isn't a mobility spell. His can't stun. I know that's not a very good trade off, but the abilities are balanced around the rest of their kits.

manbearswineJul 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I was just commenting that she still has invulnerability, and that it is comparable to Fizz's. Not better or worse, just comparable. And the fact that they created a new semi-short cd invulnerability ability shows that they think it's a healthy ability. As for your other points:

She's not untargetable, but she is invulnerable and immune to cc. Dots wont affect her (unlike fizz).

You have to be just as precise as Fizz.

It's still a relatively short cd considering how powerful invulnerability is.

Hers isn't a mobility spell. His can't stun. I know that's not a very good trade off, but the abilities are balanced around the rest of their kits.

You make good points,but you forget one crucial detail:

It's riot we are talking about,their standards for good or healthy design are very easily and very often thrown out the window just because they feel like it.

Do you really think that they looked at ekko and thought "this champions has clear strengths weaknesses an obvious identity and clearly isn't overloaded out of his ass with everything we could throw at him"? How about thresh? You realize that by this logic,since kalista(and yasuo) are new champions then riot must think them to be healthy?

I'm sure someone there realized fiora's new w is fucking cancer,they just didn't care,and moved on to think of where they could compensate ahri some more,while continuing to ignore champions whose been considered shit(competitive and otherwise) for years.

SeenanJul 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You make good points,but you forget one crucial detail:

It's riot we are talking about,their standards for good or healthy design are very easily and very often thrown out the window just because they feel like it.

Do you really think that they looked at ekko and thought "this champions has clear strengths weaknesses an obvious identity and clearly isn't overloaded out of his ass with everything we could throw at him"? How about thresh? You realize that by this logic,since kalista(and yasuo) are new champions then riot must think them to be healthy?

I'm sure someone there realized fiora's new w is fucking cancer,they just didn't care,and moved on to think of where they could compensate ahri some more,while continuing to ignore champions whose been considered shit(competitive and otherwise) for years.

I can vouch for this. S2 player here, watched a lot of champs change..not likely for the better. And seen a lot of champs that need changes, not changed.

His GoatlinessJul 24, 20152 votes

From what I saw in the spotlight it seemed like you have to time the riposte pretty damn well, as it doesn't appear to last very long. I'm glad they're throwing it in, because this game is so damn CC heavy it's nice to have some people to counter it. As far as I'm concerned it's fine in the current state of the game, but they should buff up more old kits to be more on par with her new utility.

manbearswineJul 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=His Goatliness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IH6Ajp6F,comment-id=00030000000000000001,timestamp=2015-07-24T02:02:23.516+0000)

From what I saw in the spotlight it seemed like you have to time the riposte pretty damn well, as it doesn't appear to last very long.

It's exactly the same thing as fizz e,you need the same reaction time,and the duration is the same.

I'm glad they're throwing it in,

That's just shortsighted,the weakness of assassins/melee adcs is hard cc,if you immunize them against it,you get moronic abominations like fizz.

because this game is so damn CC heavy it's nice to have some people to counter it.

Yes,let's let fiora counter hard cc...with hard cc. #logic

The only thing this will cause is more of annie/ryze/etc,people will be reluctant to roll your loaded dice,and will instead pick champions with cc that you can't react to.

As far as I'm concerned it's fine in the current state of the game, but they should buff up more old kits to be more on par with her new utility.

yes,let's create more yasuos,fizzs,kalistas,and annies to deal with them,that way nobody gets to have any fun.

Knight SoIaire Jul 23, 20152 votes

fiora gains invulnerability for like 0.75 and no mobility with that

fizz gets at least 1.5 seconds of untargetability and a realy long dash

also cooldowns

also damage atached to it

ofc fiora is a fighter ... but her w is still a skill that is just blocking damage ... not a skill that is either a free get out of jail card that makes you unpinishable or an unstoppale gapcloser that will always get you to burst your enemy

in game his untargetability is a pain in the ass

Only Play DariusJul 23, 20154 votes

Because that's his thing. An extremely slippery assassin who weaves through battles effortlessly.

Just got done with a game vs. AP Fizz . Would link it but match history is glitching right now. This Fizz was DISGUSTING, ended the game 41/12. Frankly I don't know how we won that, I was playing Ashe and he would just gapclose across the screen and delete me in half the time it would take a fed Rengar.

As bad as he is now, he is still healthier than he was season 4.

EDIT: Here it is http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1896090880/47133539?tab=overview

SeenanJul 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IH6Ajp6F,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-23T19:26:31.401+0000)

Because that's his thing. An extremely slippery assassin who weaves through battles effortlessly.

Just got done with a game vs. AP . Would link it but match history is glitching right now. This Fizz was DISGUSTING, ended the game 41/12. Frankly I don't know how we won that, I was playing Ashe and he would just gapclose across the screen and delete me in half the time it would take a fed Rengar.

As bad as he is now, he is still healthier than he was season 4.

Healthy or not, he's still a problem..and usually one of my top bans unless the usual bans are still open.

Knight SoIaire Jul 23, 20154 votes

yeah i played vs fizz today

i was vi stood in middle bush and waited for him to waste his e

the second i saw him use it i charged at him

before i got into range to hit him with q .... he used e again to get to his tower

muh counterplay ... he carried the game

His GoatlinessJul 24, 20153 votes

sounds to me like you should have either been closer or been more ready to go in on him. The cd on his E can only go down to about 6 seconds. That's a pretty long time to have to run from what sounds like a gank, if VI lands her CC.

Knight SoIaire Jul 24, 20152 votes

in the midle bush ... the bottom one ... when he used e he was perfectly in the middle of the lane ... when i started walking he walked a tad bit away from me

just walked out and charged my q when was closer .... he jumped out before i launched it

i think htat he had at least 10% cdr ... but thats still insane for someone who is vulnerable only when this skill is on cd

i think thats its possible for him to sit safely for entire cooldown of that skill with zhonya

im not a bastard so i dont play him often ... but considering solo q ... i should

DrMarshSwampJul 23, 20153 votes

What I don't get is why he also gets to jump twice on an ability that already deals fairly hefty damage (against other squishies), gives him near-complete invulnerability, with him already having a good damaging dash as an ability.

I just find it a bit bullshit that he is as mobile as he is with how much damage he throws out and how low his cooldowns are.

TheVishualJul 23, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Arguably the best kind of invulnerability and mobility in the game only surpassed by maybe Kalista..But even Kalista can be damaged while she's mobile..If you can catch her. It's worse when he has CDR + MS. Why's his E almost never been touched, yet Fiora gets her ult invulnerabilty str8 deleted

And I'd like to point out, his dash can 'somehow' avoid spells apparently by dashing at the person even while the spell is midair. Example being if I q'd him as Lux, but he still manages to dash through it, undamaged and last-hit me. It wasn't his missing health% damage or him Eing, I know that for sure.

His ult I care less about aside from the 1:1 AP ratio and long toss-range.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, his passives are also just..too good.

Fizz kit was originally balanced around the fact he was AP and that if you used E as a dodge you lost a hefty chunk of your damage.

However, now that everyone builds him bruiser with tri force/bork it actually is basically a free invulnerability/blink... He is hopefully slated for a rework soon; his kit was always pretty anti fun but even more so now that builds have changed and he sees a lot more play

His GoatlinessJul 24, 20152 votes

I agree that he should be penalized for playing AD. It's a stupid gimmick that needs to be removed. I don't think he needs a rework, but they should take some of his base damage on his skills away and increase his AP ratios. Hell I'd be ok if they took the base damages off his Q, W, and E entirely and just buffed up his ratios a bit. His early game is a little too strong seeing as his late game is even better anyway.

TheRakkunJul 24, 20153 votes

I thought Assassins were meant to have weak early game, ridiculously strong mid game due to roams then fall off late game due to being focused in teamfights and due to the carry being protected.

Fizz doesn't abide by these rules because according to riot he's a "Fighter"

His GoatlinessJul 24, 20153 votes

I'm ok with his great late game and mid game, but only as AP. His AD bruiser capabilities need to be eliminated, it's broken.

High5Jul 23, 20152 votes

There are at least 5 other champs that the OP could complain about for the same reason too.

As I've said before, learn how to play against champions instead of coming to the boards to complain about them.

Riven, Fiora and Blanc are great examples of champions that excel when they snowball. Hold them down or go even and they'll weaken significantly throughout the game.

alfavhunterJul 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There are at least 5 other champs that the OP could complain about for the same reason too.

As I've said before, learn how to play against champions instead of coming to the boards to complain about them.

Riven, Fiora and Blanc are great examples of champions that excel when they snowball. Hold them down or go even and they'll weaken significantly throughout the game.

And yet, none of the ones you just listed become untargetable every 6 seconds

Sure they have good mobility and damage, but there is conditions that you didn't look at

Riven cant become untargetable Fioras is her ult and on a much longer CD, and is being removed with her rework LB can't become untargetable

On top of this because all of them either do not have untargetable they are susceptible to CC, I main support and I've countered riven engages, Fiora, and LB, but fizz is near impossible to counter with troll pole every 6 seconds and zonas hourglass

How they should nerf fizz

Double his CD on the pole, but landing on an enemy champion reduces the Cd, similar to gragus and Nid changes that were made

That would be a reasonable nerf because it doesn't remove his engage power but it will nerf his escape power, raising his risk factor in his risk to reward equation, making him less of a safe pick

His GoatlinessJul 24, 20152 votes

well his actual passive I'd say is pretty mediocre. And with his Q not applying unless it connects with you now gives hims quite a bit of outplayability. A single flash can ruin his entire combo and render him defenseless and ripe for the slaying.

Bastard ChiefJul 24, 20152 votes

OK guys.... You pick Fizz, and 1v1 me, and I'll pick Heimerdinger, yet again crush you easily. Fizz isn't even hard, it's just these noobs that can't play against him. hell, I auto attack him and harass him half the time while it's a early game before he gets his ult. He can't do shit on heimerdinger but get crushed if he goes in to get stunned, and ulted with the big turret lol.

Oh, but I'd wreck him as other champs too. Why don't you guys cry about Tryndamere and his FIVE SECOND invincible ult that lets him penta kill. I'd say that's more OP than any Fizz variation alone. Why not complain about Heimerdinger the real most 1v1 OP champ that crushes all the other champions. Why not complain about Cho and how he can spam Q then silence you every other second?

Owell, luckily I don't play my level 4 almost level 5 fizz since he could get nerfed from all these cry babies who get stumped. I've yet to see a problem with half these champions.

And for the record, yes Fizz can do massive damage, he's a fucking sin, what do you expect sherlock? He dies equally as fast outside of his E, and if you were smart like me, you'd start blasting him AFTER the fact that he's just used it, save your gap closers til after the fact he's just used it.

I would like to see a skin rework on him tho, I hate his froggy feet, make some boots for him, and make a knuckles skin from sonic the hedgehodg, I'd pay some bucks then!

There's people out here who say Teemo is OP... I just laugh.

Cloud PotatoJul 24, 20152 votes

As an Assassin, he puts himself at very great risk to himself to do any damage at all, with the exception of his R, which is a skillshot on a long cooldown. He needs to be able to dodge things in order to have any chance of survival. As a Carry, he does not have Crit to back his damage up, he has no CC to keep people in place besides his R, which as said is a skillshot and long CD, and he is of course a melee champion dependent on basic attacks. Regardless of whether he can blow up people or not, he lacks the tools to deal damage safely besides E and R, which is why E is so damn powerful.

Now if you want to talk about his laning, that's a different story. But in teamfights he pays the melee tax quite heavily.

SaiannaJul 24, 20152 votes

I'd say shaco has also great mobility-escape ability. (please don't nerf him anymore) (please don't nerf him anymore) (please don't nerf him anymore) (please don't nerf him anymore) ....

Ben SharpioJul 23, 20151 votes

Fiora has the same damn thing. You're about to kill her in a 1 v 1? Oh, there she goes invulnerable while dealing some incredible damage and now YOU'RE dead! :D

IAMS4T4NJul 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiora has the same damn thing. You're about to kill her in a 1 v 1? Oh, there she goes invulnerable while dealing some incredible damage and now YOU'RE dead! :D

its her damn ultimate on a hefty cooldown fizz's is on like what an 8 second cooldown or something like that? fizz didnt have a perma ban rate before because of his w, he had it because of his toxic e

hoganftwJul 23, 20151 votes

Make him untargetable, but still susceptible to damage from AoE damage.

LuggJul 23, 20151 votes

Agreed. His E needs nerfing so bad. At max rank and CDR, the CD is just 5 seconds. He can gap close with it, escape with it, and it does great AoE damage as well. What sane person thinks that's balanced? With the movement towards skillshots, he is now harder to frigging kill than Alistar.

OpistachJul 23, 20151 votes

Because Fizz is broken, not overpowered like some say; but broken. There is no way to possibly balance his kit and still keep it effective. Without his E Fizz would either have no damage, or no worthy survivability. Especially when we are in a META when everything blows up in 0.5 seconds if it isn't a tank.

Dorans HatJul 24, 20151 votes

Untargetability (and invisibility) is inherently broken until point and click abilities can be queued up by targeting an enemy portrait while they're untargetable. Half of the advantage is being able to evade the enemy's mouse cursor and making them target other things.

too nostalgicJul 24, 20151 votes

lol, fizz have been nerfed so hard. He cannot def tower and useless face to pushing. and his ability E has the highest mana cost in all champions. more champion like viktor need nerfed, viktor has much higher dmg and can stand in a peace area to using ability. They are much stronger than fizz in line and getting much higher pick and ban rate in whole season 6

Wildlash2Jul 24, 20151 votes

If all of his skills are so good, play him and carry your games Fizz

ShaftyMegeeJul 24, 20151 votes

I don't think the fish is much of a problem. The thing I hate the most is actually his % hp dmg

I Main SwainJul 24, 20151 votes

I'd be fine with it if it weren't a double gap closer, high damage, aoe, heavily slowing ability

VerxintJul 24, 20151 votes

I've always said that his E has far too low a CD for what it does. Same problem LeBlanc's W has. You can't have mobility, high damage, utility, and low CD on a single skill.

PiVoRxJul 24, 20151 votes

Low CDs on abilities are common issue on every cancer champion. Fizz, LB, Nidalee, Ahri, Riven.. Theres no counterplay to ability that has low CD, Nidalee for example can spam spears and doesent matter how many times you dodge them, she cannot be punished at all since her W is at ridiculous low CD as well.