Quinn should have been the premiere Marksman-Assassin

Valor Bot··53 votes·4,435 views

https://i.imgur.com/GY5xl4u.jpg

Now, hear me out. I absolutely love the changes made to Twitch in the Preseason 2016 Marksman Update. Giving his stealth a reset mechanic so that he'd have a way to escape the backline after engaging was ingenious. The changes were elegant and successful at giving him a more Assassin-like playstyle while also preserving the Plague Rat's identity as a ranged damage-dealer with powerful basic attacks.

However, I have to wonder if Twitch was truly the best candidate to receive changes oriented at making him the most Assassin-like carry of his class.


https://i.imgur.com/IAP3VDy.jpg

By Riot's definition, Assassins are "mostly melee [characters that] must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets ... Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

Who was the one AD carry in League that could become melee for a short time, was encouraged to vault into dangerous positions and had an execute to finish off her targets along with an AoE blind to avoid incoming damage? That's right, it was Quinn -- and to me, that was a dead-on indicator she should have been the Marksman to receive changes tailored towards making her the best hybrid Assassin in her class, rather than becoming the premiere roamer.


https://i.imgur.com/rI9gORr.jpg

So we've established that old Quinn fit the description of an Assassin really well. Now, what are some issues that have arisen as a result of turning her into the dedicated roaming Marksman?

1.) There is little reason to choose Talon over Quinn. While Quinn may not have been assigned to the niche of 'Assassin AD carry,' she still very much functions like one, to the point where Lethality items have become primary on her since they support her aggressively opportunistic, pick-making playstyle. In conjunction with her ability to roam the map at top speeds, I have to wonder if there exists any reason to choose Talon over Quinn now when she can move about the map faster and more consistently than him, while also sporting similar if not higher degrees of burst damage -- all from the safety of range. Sure, Talon has stealth and can occasionally escape a fight by jumping over walls, but Quinn has nearsight which functions as a single target pseudo-stealth and can activate her passive to swiftly escape a backline engagement. It's not quite as reliable an escape as a wall-jump, but who needs that when you can just instagib someone from 525 units and then run away with the increased movement speed?

2.) Quinn's theme suffered greatly as a result of the changes made to her ultimate. While I'm sure many people believed it may have been goofy for Quinn to have an ability that allowed Valor to take over as the Champion, "Tag Team" was the cornerstone of Quinn's kit that made her unique amongst Marksmen and gave her the 2-in-1 Champion / partnership identity Riot was going for when they released this duo. Now, Valor's been relegated to taxi duty, a far cry from the glorious Assassin he used to be -- the deadly eagle has become nothing more than a particle effect made to decorate Quinn's abilities and occasionally give her a lift, rather than being a separate entity that enemies need to watch out for in addition to the falconer herself. 'It was goofy' is no good argument to get rid of a characteristic move within a Champion's kit -- if that were the case, other fun yet whimsically nonsensical abilities would have been removed long ago, like Shen's taunt and Gangplank's oranges.

3.) Other Marksmen could have fit the roaming niche better. Corki was the prime candidate, in my view -- just imagine a package that spawns in base much more often than it does now while allowing the Daring Bombardier to fly over obstacles, for example. Having a powerful roaming tool with lots of uptime fits Corki's aviator theme without impeding upon another Champion's distinct strategic identity, like Quinn does to Talon whenever she has similar amounts of power.


https://i.imgur.com/FV6sJUZ.jpg

This is all well and good, but leaves us with a single question -- what about Twitch?

In my mind, Twitch's archetype as a plague-spreader is better-suited for a champion that focuses on inflicting entire enemy teams with DoT effects rather than someone who's required to zip in and out of the backline. He could have been the premiere DoT Marksman, chaining enemies with poisons that corrode them over time rather than finishing them off in swift blows. While he's not necessarily unfitting as an Assassin per se, I will reiterate that I think Quinn would have been a much better candidate for the position -- giving her the roaming Marksman identity simply introduces more problems than it solves.


Please leave any thoughts in the comments section below, would love to have a discussion about this regardless of what your stance is on the subject.

63 Comments

Variks the Loyal21 votes

I think Twitch is perfect for the Assassin-Marksman role. In his lore, and even in the little Blitzcrank game we had, he was depicted popping in and out of hiding places to take potshots at enemies that would be extremely deadly because of his poison. Seems like the quintessential 'Rogue' character to me.

That said - why can't they just both be Marksman-Assassins with different playstyles?

Valor Bot9 votes

Yeah, I do think Twitch fits the role quite well, both thematically and gameplay-wise. His new mechanics lend themselves well to an Assassin-like play pattern.

I'm not entirely convinced he was a better candidate for the role than Quinn was, though.

That said - why can't they just both be Marksman-Assassins with different playstyles?

The thing is, Riot's trying to give every Champion a unique strategic identity within the context of their subclasses. They want every character to have a clear reason to be picked -- for example, if you want an Assassin with high AoE you pick Katarina, if you want an Enchanter with lots of peel you go for Janna, if you want a Marksman with lots of siege potential you choose Caitlyn, etc. Those are strengths only those individual characters can provide within their respective classes.

Twitch's unique strategic identity currently is 'Assassin Marksman.' Meaning the one uniquely powerful thing he brings to a team as an AD carry is his ability to swiftly ambush backline targets and then get out. If another Champion within the class is able to do this (like Quinn can), then choosing between Twitch and Quinn is a matter of who's stronger at the moment, which is problematic because it means at any given time, one of the two Champions will very nearly have no reason to be picked.

Now, I'm not saying Quinn is a stronger AD carry than Twitch is, not by a long shot. With his 550 range, I think Twitch offers a much safer laning phase while bringing more to team fights due to his ultimate and stealth. However, I do think his identity as 'Marksman Assassin' causes Quinn to step on his toes a bit when she's able to perform the role just as well. This is why I'm calling for Twitch to be uniquely powerful in other ways -- in my view, the one shining strength he should be picked for is his ability to affect entire enemy teams with damage-over-time effects from a vantage point, not his abilities as a Marksman-Assassin hybrid.

Lovelle5 votes

Twitch has always been a markman-assassin hybrid though, at least since season 2. It wouldn't make sense for them to change his identity just for Quinn's sake. If anything, they would change Quinn before they ever changed Twitch, especially since they weren't quite sure what they were aiming for with her when she was first released. I honestly think some of them still don't know what they really want her to be.

Valor Bot5 votes

That's a fair argument. Maybe Quinn shouldn't have access to such a powerful and reliable assassination pattern at all. Maybe she would make more sense as a Marksman-Diver hybrid, a space in which she wouldn't step on either Talon's or Twitch's toes while being unique as the only Diver in her class. Would also make sense within the context of her current kit since she's always had a strong reliance on AAs and a way to enter a fight but not an ability that simultaneously allows her to escape. Shifting her in this way though would require her to have more durability and less burst.

Just a thought.

Lovelle3 votes

It's an interesting idea, but "durable" marksmen seem nightmarish to balance and no one enjoys playing against them. I think giving her better anti-CC options (i.e. CC resistance for x amount of seconds when she uses Vault to close the gap) would be a healthier choice without drastically changing how she plays.

Nuparu2 votes

CC resistance would be a nightmare. We all know how everyone feels when they gave another diver the ability to remove CC (lol, that 60+% Rengar banrate tho) and resistance wouldn't do anything against half of the roster.

Lovelle2 votes

CC resistance is only a nightmare when it comes tacked with innate sustain, mitigation, and free damage. On a champion like Quinn, who has none of those things, yet will still blow up when focused, I don't think it would be game-breaking. It would just help her against things like Singed fling, Syndra stun, and give her slightly better teamfighting.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

It's an interesting idea, but "durable" marksmen seem nightmarish to balance and no one enjoys playing against them. I think giving her better anti-CC options (i.e. CC resistance for x amount of seconds when she uses Vault to close the gap) would be a healthier choice without drastically changing how she plays.

Maybe she's squishy in human form and more durable in bird form (like gnar)..

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Speaking as someone who has never played Quinn/Valor, she always seemed more of a marksman-diver to me than marksman-assassin. She'd go bird mode, caw someone's face off, then do the mid-vault transform to finish them off and get back to safety for turning into her ranged form again.

sirwaterfles1 votes

Intresting thought but im a bit hesitant remembering fighter graves.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IERBbHfH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T18:45:53.571+0000)

Yeah, I do think Twitch fits the role quite well, both thematically and gameplay-wise. His new mechanics lend themselves well to an Assassin-like play pattern.

I'm not entirely convinced he was a better candidate for the role than Quinn was, though.

The thing is, Riot's trying to give every Champion a unique strategic identity within the context of their subclasses. They want every character to have a clear reason to be picked -- for example, if you want an Assassin with high AoE you pick Katarina, if you want an Enchanter with lots of peel you go for Janna, if you want a Marksman with lots of siege potential you choose Caitlyn, etc. Those are strengths only those individual characters can provide within their respective classes.

Twitch's unique strategic identity currently is 'Assassin Marksman.' Meaning the one uniquely powerful thing he brings to a team as an AD carry is his ability to swiftly ambush backline targets and then get out. If another Champion within the class is able to do this (like Quinn can), then choosing between Twitch and Quinn is a matter of who's stronger at the moment, which is problematic because it means at any given time, one of the two Champions will very nearly have no reason to be picked.

Now, I'm not saying Quinn is a stronger AD carry than Twitch is, not by a long shot. With his 550 range, I think Twitch offers a much safer laning phase while bringing more to team fights due to his ultimate and stealth. However, I do think his identity as 'Marksman Assassin' causes Quinn to step on his toes a bit when she's able to perform the role just as well. This is why I'm calling for Twitch to be uniquely powerful in other ways -- in my view, the one shining strength he should be picked for is his ability to affect entire enemy teams with damage-over-time effects from a vantage point, not his abilities as a Marksman-Assassin hybrid.

Thing is whenever DoTs are strong, it causes problems. This is why they've changed Fizz, made Malzahar's E more of a backline ability, etc. It's also I imagine why Twitch's poisons are not his primary damage tool(yeah, they do damage, but his autos hurt a ton because of Q's attack speed buff). Also Quinn being as she is now is actually really good imo. If she's struggling, she can always splitpush most of the time super safely. Just go bot lane if no one's there, try to take a tower, if you see people roaming bot, go a around about way to top lane in a matter of a few seconds and start splitpushing there. I like new Quinn(and hate her obviously because a lot of people take her top lane to ruin melee's days, but I do like how she plays). It's fun making people think they can kill you because you're alone in a pushing lane, then backing off before anyone can get to you and being like "See ya later".

BlancheVEVO13 votes

I have very strong feelings about the Quinn rework and it makes me very happy to see that someone else cares enough about Quinn & Valor to create this thread. Before the ADC rework Quinn was by far my most played champion with me gaining over 105k mastery points on her and playing her in almost every game - since this rework happened I've only reached just over 120k mastery points on her and the majority of this was just me desperately trying to give her a chance of still being a fun champion. Quinn went from being an incredibly unique and exciting champion to being about as bland as a marksman can really be, both as a character and as a champion in-game.

Character-wise, Quinn and Valor formed one of the most unique champions that the roster has ever seen with her two-in-one theme until Kindred came about but even then Quinn shone through above Kindred as her gameplay reflected the tag-team bond of her and Valor perfectly whereas, outside of the voice over and model, you wouldn't really guess that Wolf was relevant to Lamb at all from their gameplay (yes Kindred's W obviously is based on Wolf but given Kindred can randomly create but circles of power with her ult, it's almost meaningless that Wolf happens to be vaguely biting at people during this ability). Quinn and Valor were the perfect in-game tag team where it genuinely felt like both members were pulling equal weight and were having great fun with each other whilst they did it. On her own, Quinn's personality really doesn't shine through and as much as I love our crazy bird lady she really just feels like there's nothing special left about her at all now whereas in the past you really felt like you were playing as a dynamic team of close friends whose strategies and battle tactics intertwined in such a way to create an experience that I've never felt whilst playing any other champion in the game.

Gameplay-wise, Quinn is now equally as dull and non-distinct as her personality. Sure her Vault is still a very fun ability and the touch-ups they did to it were wonderful, and her passive resets do feel great to play with, but none of this makes her feel like a special or unique marksmen when her basic game play pattern is just "run at someone and auto attack them" - a play pattern which describes 90% of other marksmen equally well. Quinn used to have fun burst combos (which still exist but are largely more sustained damage combos now) and one of the most unique and exciting ultimates in the game, all feeling very fluid and created truly exciting scenarios where you were left on the edge of your seat going in for risky dives and picking off straddlers, all the while fearing for your own life as you desperately tried to save your skin once Valor tagged out. I won't claim that it was the healthiest or most 'fair' gameplay ever created but I don't think anyone in their right mind would use those words to describe the current Quinn either, and in most cases the new Quinn feels considerably worse to play against than she did pre-rework. Even with a constant 53%+ win rate she can hardly scrape more than a 1.3% play rate top lane any more (Champ.gg) which speaks a lot about how enjoyable people are finding her now. Sure being a 'roaming marksman' is technically a niche but it's not enough to make the champion feel good to play - just because she does something unique doesn't mean she can lose half of her kit in order to achieve this and be left with the bare bones generic gameplay that 90% of marksmen share.

As a side point which also irks me, ADC Quinn was my favourite way of playing her and although it was never overly strong, it was 100% playable at all times. The new Quinn really struggles bot lane and has very few reasons to be picked outside of being played top due to the build she needs to abuse her early power and the level differences between a roaming top laner vs a roaming ADC. I could get past this easily if she was still fun as a top laner but sadly that isn't the case, at least for me.

As for the Twitch comparison, I do not believe that he's really relevant to this discussion as you can easily have more than one 'assassin' style of champion in each role and their methods of assassination (Twitch being based entirely on stealth and sneak attacks from long range whilst Quinn is based on riskily diving on top of you and sticking up close in your face until you die) are remarkably different both in terms of playstyle and their impact on the game/marksman roster.

Overall the Quinn rework is easily my least favourite thing to have happened in League. Quinn mains lost a very unique and interesting champion and character just to have it replaced with what can only be described as half a champion whilst having no real gameplay/health issues fixed (outside of Vault/passive reliability QoL changes which could have easily been given to old Quinn) and very few players picking up the new version of her. I don't know why Kog'maw got the priority on being re-reworked but Quinn really deserves this too.

Quinn

KoKoboto7 votes

It's like I'm looking in a text-mirror, I feel the exact same way.

Valor Bot1 votes

Thank you for your thoughts, and I fully share your sentiment (this isn't my first Q&V-related thread). My reason for bringing Twitch into the conversation is to bring attention to the fact that his niche within the Marksman class is supposed to be his ability to simultaneously function as an Assassin, and yet Quinn seems to be better at that than him in a sense, which I feel raises some issues.

kamikazephyr1 votes

The point he made is that their playstyle, while both are assassins, is completely different from each other.

Lovelle9 votes

I think Quinn fits the ranged assassin role pretty well, but she really needs her tags changed. It makes no sense that Jhin (or Teemo) is listed as a marksman/slayer, but Quinn isn't. Even without Tag Team, she still blows up squishies and snowballs just like any assassin does. Twitch has always been assassin-ish in my eyes. He just also happens to be decent at teamfighting, which eliminates half the risk that Quinn (or any real assassin) has to deal with past the laning phase.

Most would disagree (top players in particular), but I feel giving back her %missing hp damage would help a lot in keeping her relevant when she's behind and/or the enemy team is snowballing. Without it, she becomes too item dependent to ensure kills, which can lead to situations where it's just not possible to recover unless the opposing team makes mistakes.

Saixos5 votes

Quinn never had %missing hp damage. Her damage scaled with missing health, but it was flat damage - similar to Riven's ult.

Would not have helped her stay relevant when behind at all, nor changed how item dependent she is.

Waterty3 votes

I'd say that she's quite relevant when behind currently since all 4 of her active skills offer utility and some sort of soft CC with which she can peel for other carries while being safe and dealing dmg herself.

Edit: In addition using her ult she can rather easily split push and farm a lot to catch up.

NightmareAmazoX2 votes

Jhin & Teemo as slayers?!

These characters are slayers/skirmishers Yasuo Ekko Riven

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Slayer is the main class, while Assassin and Skirmisher are the subclasses.

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Source?

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

The information is still incorrect. Jhin and Teemo are not considered as Slayers in this subclass system.

When it comes to subclasses, the 4 champons in question are put in the following: Jhin marksman hybrid burst mage Teemo disruptor hybrid marksman Quinn marksman hybrid assassin Twitch marksman hybrid assassin

Source.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Don't know why downvoted. Jhin and Teemo are both not considered as slayers by Riot.

KoKoboto5 votes

Awkward word choice in the introduction lol.

Talon and Quinn have similarities but I wouldn't pick Quinn over Talon or Talon over Quinn because they still fill out different roles for a team. I also wouldn't say Quinn is opportunistic now, they took that away with giving 3s CD on ult. Her new assassin playstyle is easy to pull off, binary and has little things within her kit that create decision making aside from her new Q KINDA.

I don't even think roaming is a fun playstyle, in fact I think it is pretty toxic especially if it's not gated in a way. When you shut down a champion that roams they end up clearing waves on the side and you can't catch them because of their mobility or they roam to other lanes and get kills with base damage. Some people will argue that she aligns better with her scout theme with the ability to move all over the map but this was the wrong way to do it. I think Valor is strong and would be able to kill stuff but carrying Quinn around forever is just stupid and looks stupid in game. Quinn is someone who goes behind enemy lines stealthy and is able to handle situations offensively if it comes down to it. Her new kit makes little sense, no one is getting in and out of a situation flying in the sky being carried by a bird on steroids and being unseen. (On a side note, I can imagine Valor briefly carrying Quinn so that she can maybe pull off a jump or get some acceleration onto a enemy or something, that'd be plausible and cool.)

I'm not sure if assassin is the entirely right word but someone that flanks, exerts kill pressure and presence on the back line is something that Quinn should be. New Quinn is able to do this but the playstyle is toxic due to her just using lethality and just frontloading everything. I guess assassin is the right word, but I think skirmisher/duelist is a more healthy playstyle for Quinn and would allow more tag-team skills being added to her kit. Quinn running up to you and one-shotting you is stupid, especially cause she is often played top lane and already has a winning lane.

So I slightly disagree with Quinn being an assassin, if she manages to build a ton of items she should be able to deal assassin level damage like Fiora, but the duelist playstyle is more healthy I think.

Valor Bot1 votes

Talon and Quinn have similarities but I wouldn't pick Quinn over Talon or Talon over Quinn because they still fill out different roles for a team.

I'm not so sure that they do. Tactically, they feel quite different to play; but strategically, it feels they are one and the same. High burst damage, AD champions with powerful map mobility that dive into the fray for kills. Essentially, they both function as the 'roamers' of their respective classes, but since Quinn also has access to an Assassin pattern, it seems to me she's able to do Talon's job safer and better than him.

Agree that Quinn is less opportunistic now than before due to her new ult cooldown (or lack thereof), however I'd still say she's fairly opportunistic compared to other Champions in her class.

Also agree with your other points. I've changed my stance since the making of this thread and think she could be more healthy/distinct as a Diver of sorts. She certainly feels lacking in mechanical depth after the update due to the loss of her melee form/execute and I wish she had more tactical tools to offer as a short-ranged Marksman who relies on flanking and diving into the fray (something naturally counterintuitive to a Marksman). Tag Team was a cool way to do this but it wasn't exactly healthy or fair to play against either for the same reasons I believe Quinn is unhealthy now -- bursting squishies down with nigh unavoidable damage before they even have a chance to respond. That doesn't mean giving Quinn a melee form is inherently unhealthy or a bad idea, it just means that it needs to be done in the right way.

KoKoboto3 votes

I believe the next update class is for divers so it'd be pretty cool to see Quinn in that lmao.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IERBbHfH,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2017-01-19T13:47:08.881+0000)

I'm not so sure that they do. Tactically, they feel quite different to play; but strategically, it feels they are one and the same. High burst damage, AD champions with powerful map mobility that dive into the fray for kills. Essentially, they both function as the 'roamers' of their respective classes, but since Quinn also has access to an Assassin pattern, it seems to me she's able to do Talon's job safer and better than him.

Even after his rework I sincerely doubt that Quinn brings anything close to the burst damage Talon does, to be perfectly honest. I haven't added everything up, but just glancing at their base damage and ratios implies to me that Talon's upfront damage would be much higher.

KestrelGirl4 votes

The thing with Twitch, however, is that he can't really do top or mid lane so well. He's only seen as ADC and occasionally jungle. Quinn, on the other hand, specializes in going solo, with ADC as her weakest meta role (probably something to do with the fact that her E's a gapcloser). In fact, Riot stated that reworked Quinn was designed for solo laning.

The reason for this is because Quinn and Twitch assassinate differently. Quinn gets in the enemy's face to kill them swiftly and efficiently (and has to roam for her pentakill, therefore her ult exists); Twitch gets a double kill from halfway down bot lane with his ult. So it's not like they're the same champ. They're not in the same niche. I'd compare Twitch and Teemo before comparing Twitch and Quinn.

Valor Bot2 votes

Trust me, I'm not at all trying to say Quinn and Twitch are one and the same. I'm with you that they're two very distinct characters who go about fighting in very different ways. Regardless of their strongest lane positions though, within the context of the Marksman class I think Quinn "invades" Twitch's niche so to speak in that she's able to perform his job better than him.

Riot wants you to pick Twitch when you need a Marksman on the team who can simultaneously function as an Assassin. That's his intended niche, the one strength that's supposed to make him distinct amongst the Marksman roster.

But then there's Quinn, who can -- in some respects -- play Assassin almost better than Twitch can, which raises the question: Is Twitch truly successful at being the premiere Marksman-Assassin?

You could totally make the counterargument that Twitch is a more powerful Assassin than Quinn since he has a more reliable way of getting out of a fight via his stealth resets, but then what would that mean for Quinn? Does it mean she's not actually an Assassin but a Marksman-Diver hybrid, or perhaps a Marksman-Skirmisher, since she can get in a fight and burst someone down but has no way to reliably exit?

Regardless, all I'm trying to say is if Quinn is better at doing Twitch's job, then either (1) Quinn needs changes oriented towards making her not be better than Twitch at his job, (2) Twitch needs to be made better at his job, or (3) Twitch just needs a new job unique to himself only. Otherwise, there's a problem.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

I mean... I respectfully disagree. Quinn's original idea was to be a scout, I thought, and the fact that she had so many assassin qualities is the reason that she wasn't very healthy. She didn't fit the original promise of her concept at all.

Regardless of whether or not you like the new Quinn in-game, I think she delivers on the "scout" fantasy better now.

I do agree that she would be more interesting if Valor were more present in her kit.

I do not agree that any of this has ANY bearing whatsoever on Twitch. Twitch has always been an assassin/marksman, and even if Quinn occupied that spot, too, Twitch wouldn't have to change. Bringing Twitch into the discussion is confusing for me, other than to point out that assassin/marksmen are possible to support in the game. Twitch's existence is probably your best evidence that Quinn could be an assassin without breaking the game.

Having said that, I think she would need pretty substantial changes for her assassin playstyle to be all that healthy. Your 1st point confuses me, because you seem to be asserting that Quinn already operates like a healthy assassin, while bemoaning that Riot didn't turn her into an assassin...? It seems to me that it can't be both. Either Quinn is a better assassin than Talon, OR you have something to complain about because she isn't. I don't see how both can be true.

Valor Bot3 votes

I mean... I respectfully disagree. Quinn's original idea was to be a scout, I thought, and the fact that she had so many assassin qualities is the reason that she wasn't very healthy.

Actually, according to Riot Morello, Quinn originally started as "a loose concept simply called 'Falconer.'" She was a melee Assassin at the time that didn't end up becoming a ranged scout until later in development. One of my biggest issues with Quinn at the moment is that while she fulfills the scout thematic quite well I think she's lacking in the falconer department, in fact I'd say she feels more like an eagle rider.

I do not agree that any of this has ANY bearing whatsoever on Twitch. Twitch has always been an assassin/marksman, and even if Quinn occupied that spot, too, Twitch wouldn't have to change.

Someone brought up that Twitch has been an Assassin-like Marksman for longer than Quinn has, meaning he deserves the niche more than Quinn does. I think this is a fair argument and not something I considered when making my post. Maybe Quinn should be more of a Diver than an Assassin. Or maybe they could both be Marksmen-Assassin hybrids. However, if that's the case then Twitch's strategic niche cannot consist solely of "Marksman Assassin" unless Riot ensures hands-down that he is the most successful Marksman Assassin in the game, which I don't think is the case at the moment due to what Quinn is.

Your 1st point confuses me, because you seem to be asserting that Quinn already operates like a healthy assassin

I'm actually of the view that Quinn's assassination patterns are unhealthy. They aren't skillful or nuanced enough to justify the sheer amount of reliability and power they provide. With Lethality items, Quinn can one-shot any squishy target that isn't excessively far ahead, simply by targeting them with Vault, proccing Harrier and then hitting them with a Q. This means that oftentimes, the success of her assassinations hinges around landing a linear skillshot. I think Riot is of the mind that kills should require a bit more finesse than that, and I agree with them.

Either Quinn is a better assassin than Talon, OR you have something to complain about because she isn't. I don't see how both can be true.

Apologies if I was unclear, but the crux of my point there is that I believe Quinn's ability to assassinate while having better roaming tools pushes Talon out of the game (in other words, why pick Talon when Quinn can do what he does safer and better).

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Well, that certainly clears things up. It is significantly different to say she's phasing him out vs. claiming she's healthy.

As someone who doesn't play Quinn (but would like to add her to my wheelhouse), I'm still not sure I'd prefer her as an assassin. You haven't quite sold me on that. But I do understand your point better.

Valor Bot2 votes

Besides originating as an Assassin in the conception phase and having very Assassin-like qualities all throughout her time as a Champion in League, I'd say Quinn's lore and voiceover also supports her role as an Assassin in game. Heck, one of her lines is "Fly swiftly, kill swiftly," and there's also this paragraph from her bio:

Quinn and Valor are an elite ranger team. With crossbow and claw, they undertake their nation's most dangerous missions deep within enemy territory, from swift reconnaissance to lethal strikes. The pair's unbreakable bond is deadly on the battlefield, leaving opponents ravaged and riddled with arrows long before they realize who they're fighting: not one, but two Demacian legends.

Of course, "killing swiftly" doesn't necessarily have to translate into Quinn functioning as an Assassin in game, but I think it adds a fair amount of credence to the fact she should at least remain a slippery and agile champion with burst damage no matter what changes she receives.

Droogzy2 votes

Using Quinn's concept development idea really doesn't hold much water here as they later admitted they had no idea what the eff they were doing, what they wanted her to really be, or where she would end up post-release, in terms of role and position.

Personally, I think you're exactly right in your second post, she feels like she belongs more in the marksman diver category as oppose to assassin. When you think about it, there's nothing really inherently assassin like about her kit, she's not sneaking around dangerous positions waiting for the right opportunity much like you pulled from Riot's description of assassins, rather its more the opposite: she's more of a blitzkrieg in your face out of no where type of marksman.

To me that says diver moreso than assassin, though this really can come down to interpretation as the speed at which she can come down on you could potentially be described as somewhat assassin like.

Twitch on the other hand - fulfills that assassin description perfectly, both both and after his rework.

Just my two cents [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Varnoc3 votes

I used to play Quinn & Valor pretty consistently. While the rework did many good things, I simply don't enjoy playing her anymore. There doesn't feel like there's any nuance to playing her anymore. Maybe there never was and I just didn't see it? It's hard to pinpoint exactly what I loved about Q&V back then, so maybe it's just rose-tinted-glasses talking.

Barring the fact that playing her top-lane makes me feel like a massive douche (since you're basically telling the other guy he's not playing the game for the next 20-30m, this was the same before the rework though), I don't feel like I won due to my skill with the character, I feel like I cheesed the game.

I do hope she gets some attention soon (though I doubt it, sadly). I tried to like the rework, I really did. I was telling everyone to give it a chance when people were shouting that it destroyed the character. At the end of the day though, I just don't enjoy "just Quinn" anymore.

Valor Bot3 votes

The underlying assumption behind the removal of Tag Team was that a variant combat form could not simultaneously serve as and/or coexist with a powerful map mobility tool in the same kit. I think that's faulty reasoning. Much of what gave old Quinn nuance and depth lied in her melee form as Valor. I'm not so sure it was nuanced enough, but that doesn't mean a melee form for Quinn has to be inherently unhealthy. Maybe Tag Team should have been more of a default Lv. 1 swap like Nidalee and Elise. Maybe Valor's Q needed to be changed to a skillshot. Maybe Skystrike shouldn't have existed in the kit as it did, or at all (it's not a particularly interactive spell). Regardless, I'm convinced the ability to play as melee Valor is what gave Quinn both tactical and thematic depth. Without it, it does very much feel like "just Quinn," even though the Champion promises to be Quinn and Valor.

Selfhood2 votes

Make Valor great again. https://youtu.be/Vl2DKdvm9ok

TeeTohr1 votes

Really well made post, I do think riot should have kept the tag team Quinn/Valor because it was THEIR identity. I really dislike it when riot changes the identity of a champion because they don't like how it is.

Graves is an example of a classic adc that was opportunistic and needed to go head first to utilize his kit the best way possible. Now he feels like a shotgun kite burst machine.

BlueBilberry1 votes

Don't agree simply because Quinn has been faring quite well lately. I'll take your second point that she is a bit of a diver - but realistically, in the current state of the game, she has been fitted into a third category: the split pusher. And, I don't think that she is going to get a re-jig simply because she has a simple kit, has been a bit assassin-like in the past, and has faced a nerf or two which has changed her character.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

I think Quinn should really be focused around being the same class as Graves - I'd call that a ranger. Guild Wars 2's ranger kinda is like that with its several possible weapon choices, in particular the throwing axe one which has both melee and ranged elements.

And Urgot should be, upon his rework, the first heavy artillery of the game. 200 ms, good scaling defenses, ultra-long range Q.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

Twitch fits the assassin role much better just because of his theme and stealth, as a matter of fact even before the stealth rework there were 2 ways to build him one of which was assassin. it's also his secondary class.

Twitch is a character that creeps around in dark places, he takes out people who trespass(according to him). perfect for the role of a thief/rogue type of character which an assassin is.

Quinn as far as i remember is a scout. most of the time a scout is stealthy and quick, as it 's a rogue type of character just without the crime and more focused on gathering info. Quinn gives up stealth, in place of mobility. honstely from the few times i've played her i think she fit's her lore. she can get vision of her surroundings, thus it's best when behind enemy lines. she can go in and out quite easily. she can deny vision. she also bursts. she's as assassin as a scout should get imo.

And the main DoT marksman is Teemo. love him or hate him, he's DoT and he's a marksman.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I would like Riot to consider making certain champions League's premier [insert unique class combo here] as a way of giving them a particular niche.

I hoped they'd push Shaco into being League's premier Assassin / Support, but, alas, no luck.

Nice post, well said. I wish you the best though in your endeavor to get Quinn the role / niche she deserves.

+1

Shaco

the weeaboo1 votes

Twitch wansnt changed to be more like an assassin. He was changed to be more like an ADC lol

Valor Bot1 votes

How so? Both his 2016 preseason and 2017 preseason mini-updates provided changes oriented towards making Twitch function more like an Assassin.

the weeaboo1 votes

His 2016 Preseaon Changes were more assassin geared yes but their season they gave him more farming potential with his 'reworked' W and his Q lets him use it less like a assassination tool and more like a positioning tool. Of course this is just my opinion but I am a Twitch main so I know the in's and out's of the champ and it just feels like he isn't quite suited to the up-front burst anymore.

I would consider Quinn the premier ADC-Assassin tbh I've killed people with her much faster than I ever have with Twitch.

Valor Bot1 votes

I see what you mean. One thing to keep in mind is that Assassins aren't defined solely by their burst, but also by their mobility/ability to weave in and out of danger, qualities which they gave Twitch to align him better with that subclass.

the weeaboo1 votes

Using that point I would say they made him more of an ADC. Twitch no longer has the same mobility/ability to weave in and out of danger. The camouflage has really hurt his ability to do that. He has to be very careful where he's walking, the timing of activation, etc. Opposed to a "true" assassin like Zed who has a completely reliable mobility spell (W?) or Ahri who has 3 reliable mobility spells. These can get them to the squishes easily. Whereas Twitch has to stick to attacking the frontline (which is probably what they designed his ultimate to compliment). Even the other camo assassins have mobility. Rengar can jump and Evelynn builds Protobelt.

His new Q is for starting fights and the reset helps him to chase down fleeing enemies after a teamfight. It's very poor for leaving the fight and coming back later because most likely your enemies will see you activating it and focus you even harder than they already were.

Quinn in comparison at least has her E for disengage. If you're being chased as Twitch Q isn't going to get you out. Don't get me wrong I see where you're coming from, but in comparison to other assassins I play like Kassadin, Rengar, and (Full AD) Vi, Quinn feels more like that sort of playstyle than Twitch. But maybe I'm doing it wrong, you're the Quinn expert here haha.

Valor Bot1 votes

Not at all; if anything, it illustrates that Riot may have not been totally successful at giving Twitch a distinct strategic identity within his class. If they want Twitch's niche to be "Marksman-Assassin" but there's already a Marksman-Assassin in the game that's better than him, then that raises some issues.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

To be fair in her current state she does fit the Role better then both Twitch, Vayne and Jhin. Close-range Burst damage. Riot have expressed they are unhappy with her kit.

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