Boards›Gameplay

Let's say I have 900 health (Second Wind)

PopcornBunni··2 votes·1,417 views

I get attacked down to 300 health and start recovering my missing health from the rune. That's 4% of 600, plus 6 flat. 30 health. So having this rune gives me effectively 30 extra health if I roam out of range from followup attacks to get its full effect at what is a fairly low amount of health.

930 / 900 is a 3.33% increase. What else could increase my survivability by 3.33%. Hmm, how about 3.33 armor or magic resist. Good thing the other runes in the same slot give much more of that stat than that, especially conditioning, which gives 8% extra health against both types of damage in addition to its % armor/MR increase. This is just during laning phase obviously, otherwise it gets even worse at higher health values where the flat 6 health decreases more and more in value. Even at its best case it's granting an effective 4% health increase if you slip from the narrow clutches of death, but you'd be backing in that case anyway.

Why would I ever want to take second wind over any of the other options in its slot? If I'm against AP in lane, mirror shell is giving me effectively 2% extra health boost at 0.0001% health, and 6%at full heatlh; Iron Skin is the same with 1% and 5% respectively, and conditioning blows them all out of the water if I'm willing to wait it out.

Is it just for extremely low mixed damage poke that for some reason has a 10 second cooldown? I'm just having trouble seeing any remote value in it compared to the others in its slot. When it was in its own slot competing with bonus shields/healing and permanent %health increases, it at the least offered a bit more in terms of decision making. I can see why having it, conditioning AND boneplating could be a bit much, but as it stands, it just doesn't feel remotely redeemable for its slot.

8 Comments

thecowley1 votes

Yeah that's my problem with runes through out. It sounds fantastic, but sitting down and doing math makes it bleh. There are some that just don't have the same oomph as others despite trying to fulfill the same role and purpose

nm10101 votes

It has a cool down? Pretty sure you just get 4% of your missing health for the next 10 seconds whenever you take damage (new damage refreshes this, just like doran's shield). That is why it is actually dumb against some poking champions, every time they poke you get free healing (bonus points if you took d shield and revitalize). Mix in bone plating and you might as well be invincible in lane (defensively at least).

Spearlon1 votes

{quoted}

It has a cool down? Pretty sure you just get 4% of your missing health for the next 10 seconds whenever you take damage (new damage refreshes this, just like doran's shield). That is why it is actually dumb against some poking champions, every time they poke you get free healing (bonus points if you took d shield and revitalize). Mix in bone plating and you might as well be invincible in lane (defensively at least).

Why take the damage at all? The defensive runes will simply block the same amount of damage done to you. Second wind is simply useless. If it gave you like 5% movement speed, that would be better.

nm10101 votes

The defensive runes will simply block the same amount of damage done to you.

No... That isn't how that works. To use your numbers @ 900 hp and assume this is still relatively early laning.

5 bonus armor on 900 hp is 45 extra effective health, so 945 raw damage to kill you.

Assuming you trade pretty normally (I'm going off of a mid perspective) you will lose about 200 hp in most poke-y scenarios after ~level 4. That means you get 14 hp back off of one trade with nothing else included (like the increased healing at lower hp). Even with this very estimated scenario you get similar effective hp in just 3 trades, this is even more effective early on.

Against something ranged as a melee champion mid, you could easily heal hundreds of hp in the first few minutes of the game because of aa harass. Mix in bone plating + revitalize as something that can go resolve primary and you soon start healing/negating a ridiculous amount of damage.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

It has a cool down? Pretty sure you just get 4% of your missing health for the next 10 seconds whenever you take damage (new damage refreshes this, just like doran's shield). That is why it is actually dumb against some poking champions, every time they poke you get free healing (bonus points if you took d shield and revitalize). Mix in bone plating and you might as well be invincible in lane (defensively at least).

It doesn't have a cooldown itself, but if you take another instance of damage before it heals up all teh way it's effecitvely losing out on that health gain. Say it only ever gave 20 health over 10 seconds like item 1054. If an attack takes you from 500 to 580, you get more staying power by taking a single hit and backing off to heal up, then going back in, than by taking extended trades. 20 is being a bit generous that early into the game (needing 350 missing health or around 50% before items get bought), and as said it gets worse than just armor or MR at higher health values.

It's impossible to go over a full lane's entire trades over the course of a game as an example since each game is so different, but assuming half the time you'd be above 50% and half below, 20 each hit is a good estimate for the early game when it would be best.

Alternatively, we could look at damage dealt from trades. A decent trade I think people would agree on would be a 100 health trade advantage, so 280 damage while taking just 180 yourself. In that case, 5 armor would increase your effective health, we'll use a lower 700 value this time, by 5% or 35 health. You take would take 180 damage each trade so 5 trades will get you knocked out of commission (actually 4.08, but we round up). We'll ignore outside health regen sources for now. Alright so 5 extra armor giving effectively 35 extra health amounts to that armor negating 4.7% of physical damage.

Compare to taking those trades with second wind (and backing off for the full heal to take effect): 700 -> 533.2 -> 373.07 -> 206.8 -> 59.7

So if we ignore base health regen and potential doran's healing, it does grant more health if its allowed to fully run out its time, hence why I mentioned "with a 10 second cooldown," because I recognized that letting it grant its full heal every time would only then pay for itself over the other options. The problem is I just don't see trades going like that very often if ever.

Khristophoros1 votes

You did your math wrong. Healing is affected the same way as health by armor/mr. So in your specific example it's 3.33% of your EHP, not 3.33% of your base HP.

The difference is, if you get 8 armor/mr you don't get a 8% increase to your EHP. You get 8% of your base HP added to your EHP.

Example: If you go from 50 to 58 armor/mr then you're going from 1.5x HP to 1.58x EHP. That's a 5.33% increase to your EHP.

So that's still stronger, but keep in mind that Conditioning activates at level 10 so of course it has to be stronger. You're giving up some durability/sustain in lane you could be getting from Second Wind for the first 10 levels in order to be more durable mid and late game.

lolibus1 votes

I guess I still prefer second wind because armor (iron skin) only helps you against one type of damage not against true/magic damage, ignite etc.

Conditioning is not useable in laning phase, so thats that.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak1 votes

It also procs off of DoTs. It can allow you to actually survive against Teemo in conjunction with Doran's Shield. If you run this particular setup on Camille, there's almost nothing he can do to harass you out of lane. Second Wind singlehandedly made it so melee can have an easier time with Teemo alone.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by PopcornBunni

Weekly reminder that Taliyah STILL --
Gameplay83 comments
201
votes
Replace "none" ban with "pass" to another teammate
Gameplay174 comments
144
votes
Somehow 10 bans doesn't seem like nearly enough anymore
Gameplay146 comments
139
votes
Games are too snowbally and Towers are made of candy floss
Gameplay46 comments
134
votes
"Win a PVP game with a player level 15 or lower"...
Gameplay71 comments
131
votes
Imagine being allowed to be busted for 2 years straight
Gameplay155 comments
114
votes