Riot will you please just delete the AP ratio from Lulu's whimsy and stop messing with support Lulu?

TheLittlestLulu·Mar 19, 2016·105 votes·5,901 views

AP scaling utility by it's very nature benefits a solo laner far more than a support. I have no idea why you guys are going through with nerfing the duration of the boost to tone down solo lane Lulu when you could just remove the AP ratio for the same effect without really touching support Lulu.

The AP ratio is the reason solo lane Lulu can see ridiculous values like a 90% ms boost while support Lulu is lucky to get 40%. Honestly AP scaling utility in general was a failure and the sooner you guys put it to rest the better.

73 Comments

WadeWilson1337Mar 19, 201610 votes

To all the people arguing saying "Oh lulu lane isnt that bad just leave it alone.", just think about if other supports had enough damage and waveclear to be viable mid lane.

Do you know fast people would beg Riot to shut down Janna mid if they made her shield give AP, increase her Q and W base damage so she has safe wave clear and unbelievable poke? The same people defending Lulu mid would defend Janna mid because it would be so obnoxious a small child could play that lane, never die, and maybe even get kills due to tilting the hell out of their enemy with an incredibly boring and obnoxious lane. And then of course with all of your utility you just go into teamfights and do Janna things as you chunk 3 people for 30% hp with a Q. It sounds stupid, but thats what Lulu lane does and its unfair to other champions.

Just ShimakazeMar 19, 20165 votes

Sounds like someone hates Lulu kappa

TsenMar 19, 20168 votes

I'm pretty sure this already happened with Janna... and Morg. Although in their case it was mostly because of insane waveclear. (Charge a Q or just pool the minion wave and watch from under turret)

...Morg hasn't changed much anyways.

MazariamontiMar 19, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure this already happened with Janna... and Morg. Although in their case it was mostly because of insane waveclear. (Charge a Q or just pool the minion wave and watch from under turret)

...Morg hasn't changed much anyways.

You notice when you're playing Morgana mid and her ult is doing 100 less base less than it used to, and you have to hold minion waves in place with your body to clear waves.

TsenMar 19, 20161 votes

If only I could get mid...

TotalJerkMar 20, 20161 votes

Morg top is nuts.

MagearnaMar 20, 20161 votes

Seriously. Morgana has been my main for a few seasons now and it's VERY noticeable.

MazariamontiMar 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Seriously. Morgana has been my main for a few seasons now and it's VERY noticeable.

Same

Athenes LuluMar 20, 20162 votes

I don't mind supports being able to solo lane if they have punishable weaknesses there.

At least Lulu support is stupidly easy to punish in lane, gameplay is extremely dangerous especially if she wants to make a good use of everything, you get the point. Lulu solo lane doesn't have any of that risks.

This should apply to all supports, and if not, all champs. Trade damage potential for extra utility all we want, but make sure they have a weakness so they are not 100% pick/ban. It is boring to watch, boring to play as, and just as boring to see it exist for 2 years.

WadeWilson1337Mar 20, 20161 votes

Frankly i look at Lulu support the same as Sona and Nami . I camp the living hell out of it. Hell, i level 2 gank that lane if im playing something like Zac and it works 70% of the time. Lulu support in theory is great, but she just doesnt stack up to other squishy ap supports and when AP supports are far, far behind tank supports in the current meta, thats a bad sign.

AmetDeCryptMar 20, 20161 votes

because she's not a squishy ap support, she's a poke/protect support similar to janna. I dunno about you, but I go talisman on her for the sustain and build half ap half tank utility and become a second frontline for my adc.

WadeWilson1337Mar 20, 20162 votes

When i say "ap support" i mean a squishy support that isnt going to be building tanky. Janna Soraka Sona Morgana are all examples.

And no, building a item 3190 does not make you a "tanky support".

AmetDeCryptMar 20, 20161 votes

I ain't talking about those, I'm talking about full on item 3742 item 3143 item 3102 item 3022

JayHog1992Mar 19, 20169 votes

That ap scaling saved me more often than not when supporting as her. Rather leave it be.

da gloriousMar 20, 20162 votes

Well, they have to nerf something. Another option that people have said is lower q damage to minions.

JayHog1992Mar 20, 20161 votes

Won't make much of a difference since late game, everyone is fed enough to burst her down.

da gloriousMar 20, 20161 votes

It's for less wave clear, something support lulu needs a lot less than mid or top lulu.

JayHog1992Mar 20, 20161 votes

How about just less damage towards minions? One thing I hate as support Lulu is trying to proc spellthief's by Q'ing the enemy laners, but if the Q kills a minions first, the item is disabled and can't get that gold.

It tends to be infuriating at a certain level and I wouldn't mind having to Q 2-3 times early game for wave clear as long as I get to shoot my skillshot THROUGH minions to proc the gold.

Sneakyy XDMar 19, 20165 votes

Or she could just not be nerfed in the first place, considering she's very far from being OP

ErockandrollMar 19, 201621 votes

I don't think that's going to happen. Now that people have gotten a taste of mid lane Lulu, they're going to support it.

The weird thing though is that one of the aspects of Lulu that makes her strong is, she can always rely on her utility even if she falls behind. But if she's that good even from behind, it should be indicative that her support build, (which would be down in gold and levels) would be just as good, except for the potential of swinging forward a bunch later in the game. I don't actually think support Lulu is that weak, it's just that playing her support means giving up a first class mid laner.

{quoted}

Or she could just not be nerfed in the first place, considering she's very far from being OP

The LCS would greatly disagree.

ElwynnMar 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that's going to happen. Now that people have gotten a taste of mid lane Lulu, they're going to support it.

The weird thing though is that one of the aspects of Lulu that makes her strong is, she can always rely on her utility even if she falls behind. But if she's that good even from behind, it should be indicative that her support build, (which would be down in gold and levels) would be just as good, except for the potential of swinging forward a bunch later in the game. I don't actually think support Lulu is that weak, it's just that playing her support means giving up a first class mid laner.

The LCS would greatly disagree.

The difference is that shes op is pro play because shes a safe laner that enables multiples team compositions. She does nothing in solo queue.

Troll for TrumpMar 19, 20162 votes

She's pretty dang good at harassing anything weak early game. She's a powerful bully at top, and just makes things unfun for a lot of champs

AnidanMar 20, 20161 votes

In fairness, a lot of champions make things unfun for champions with weak early games. Their whole thing is that they'll get bullied early for being stronger later, of course they're going to get bullied by someone who has a competent early game.

Why is it only on League that people try to make it so that champions with weak early games have an easier time?

Troll for TrumpMar 20, 20162 votes

Because she bullies harder than pre-rework Darius. Pre-rework Darius was too strong of a lane bully, which is one of the key versions they reworked him. Lulu should be the same

LwntMar 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that's going to happen. Now that people have gotten a taste of mid lane Lulu, they're going to support it.

The weird thing though is that one of the aspects of Lulu that makes her strong is, she can always rely on her utility even if she falls behind. But if she's that good even from behind, it should be indicative that her support build, (which would be down in gold and levels) would be just as good, except for the potential of swinging forward a bunch later in the game. I don't actually think support Lulu is that weak, it's just that playing her support means giving up a first class mid laner.

The LCS would greatly disagree.

But the speed boost scaling wasnt meant for mid lane lulu in the first place. It was for support lulu to scale her utility which totally backfire on them which they cant even admit and fix.

Bloodhawk95Mar 20, 20161 votes

Lulu isnt OP in any way. Her kit is just really good. She has an ult for big hp buff and knockup, polymorphs, speed boost, slows, and a shield + pix. Shes the ultimate "empower my carry" champion. Thats why shes such a good champion, shes very good at empowering her team. Shes not OP

A Miss FortuneMar 20, 20161 votes

Lulu isn't insanely overpowered but she definitely is too strong. At least in her solo lane role. This is proven especially in high elo games where Lulu players single control the outcome of games because they're able to reverse a lot of mistakes their teams make and fix a lot of flaws in a team comp.

ÐelofashtMar 19, 20165 votes

Or they could make her W scale with CDR, that has an easy cap and the percent could be carefully maintained then, also CDR on mid is good, but most Lulu's want to prioritize AP first so they have damage and waveclear. This would push it towards a more supportive role and allow Lulu to transition softly from solo laner to late game support (as she mostly does anyhow, her scalings aren't high enough on damage to do what other AP solo laners do, which is erase a squishy).

It Hertz When IPMar 19, 20161 votes

Except it ALREADY is affected by CDR. The only abilities that you can really add CDR scaling to are ones that use a charge/ammo system and therefore aren't affected normally by CDR in the first place.

ÐelofashtMar 20, 20162 votes

I mean scales with the CDR as in adds more movespeed for the total amount of CDR you get. The cap ensures you can't get more than a max amount which keeps it relevant to supports as they try to get CDR a bit earlier than Mid laners.

Reduction in cooldown is what CDR already does, I'm talking about giving it a secondary scaling with that stat.

It Hertz When IPMar 20, 20161 votes

I know what you meant, that's not the problem. You are referring to the same scaling as with Corki R, Zyra W, etc. My point is that it makes no sense to scale something off of CDR whose usage is already gated by it. Zyra's seeds and Corki's missiles have incredibly low CDs on usage (Zyra's has no CD, Corki's ult is 2s); they use a CDR-scaling ammo system instead.

Key work being instead.

Now, I might have missed an ability somewhere, but I'm reasonably sure that there is no champion ability that is actually gated by CD but also scales off of CDR, for the simple reason that it makes no sense. Sure, it sounds really great if you forget that CDR means CoolDown Reduction; "we could scale it off of a stat other than AP that supports like to build!" Except that giving a CDR scaling to a CD-gated ability is literally just using CDR twice; you could achieve the exact same result by increasing the base MS value and lengthening the ability CD.

ÐelofashtMar 20, 20162 votes

Ammo system is NOT what I meant, %movespeed from CDR.

As in get 0.7% more movespeed per 1% of CDR. (as an example, numbers might be terrible) This does not equal the same as increased base stats longer CD, this keeps the cooldown the same as it is, scaling normally, would be a buff except that the total range of bonus is greater with a typical AP build. Thus the ability DOES double dip into CDR as a stat, but that's okay as it's a utility spell and CDR for a Mid laner generally comes at the cost of pure AP, trade off.

I'm kind of surprised this doesn't make sense to you.

It Hertz When IPMar 20, 20161 votes

I give up. Either you're not actually reading what I'm saying or English is your second language.

ÐelofashtMar 20, 20161 votes

I'm not entirely convinced you understand what you are saying either. You are stating that it makes no sense to have something scaling off a stat twice, which in fact we see very often in many different ways throughout the game. (many champions scale twice off health, beyond giving them more survivability it also gives them more damage or bigger shields, same for many other stats)

I will, however, concede that obviously we lack the communicative skills to express the our points of view in such a way that they can be understood.

AmetDeCryptMar 20, 20161 votes

he's reading it quite clearly. change the ap ratio of her move speed boost into a cdr ratio so as she gets more cdr, it boosts speed more. cdr is gated at 40-45% meaning the speed boost could be regulated to have a max as needed, rather than how much ap is possible to have, which varies per build.

Zero Skill TankMar 19, 20164 votes

I believe Riot doesn't want to make lowering or removing AP scalings as a way to push someone in support role a habit.

If a champions is played support, it should be because their kit is best put to use as support, not because they lack scalings to make good use of gold from lane.

TheLittlestLuluMar 19, 20168 votes

{quoted}

I believe Riot doesn't want to make lowering or removing AP scalings as a way to push someone in support role a habit.

If a champions is played support, it should be because their kit is best put to use as support, not because they lack scalings to make good use of gold from lane.

Well it looks like Riot instead made a habit of completely disregarding that support Lulu even exists every time they come up with a nerf for solo lane Lulu.

Just ShimakazeMar 19, 20162 votes

That's because riot will look at the meta, and always favor that over off-meta. Sorry, just have to learn to live with it.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 20, 20164 votes

Holy insightfulness this is gold. I'm all for screwing over lane Lulu as a top lane main. Screw top Lulu. But I'm 200% fine with support Lulu and it's sad that she's being pigeonholed into the role I hate her most.

RyouhiMar 19, 20163 votes

But that would be akin to riot admitting they made a mistake with Utility scaling. And you do know that riot would rather try to nerf a champ 10 times before they would revert a change right?

Athenes LuluMar 20, 20163 votes

Scrap utility scalings based on AP on every support champion, no one needs it.

Or even if supports get to build AP at most it's 200 in a game, which isn't much compared to solo laners getting 500+.

SohleksMar 19, 20162 votes

Could make that bonus speed from AP for self use only. The ADC gets the flat effect. Come on rocket Lulu is fun and by late it's not so harmful on her (I think)

She has special animations zipping on her staff so it makes sense a little.

They might bite with this compromise.

DrOinkleBerryMar 19, 20163 votes

Or they could do the opposite, which would tone down solo lane Lulu while not invalidating her primary reasons for going into a solo lane. Her scaling on W is largely irrelevant to her primary laning power, but essential when she starts supporting her team.

Final Spark LuxMar 19, 20162 votes

Who doesn't build AP as lulu?..even when support most people go AP because thats what she benefits most from

DrOinkleBerryMar 19, 20163 votes

Unless you run full gold seals & quints, an AP support will never come close to having enough AP to be as meaningful a threat as though they were a solo laner with CS. And if you run gold runes you will have an armor deficit that will let the enemy bot lane wreck you if you get caught even once. It's a massive risk/reward dynamic where the reward for taking the risk isn't even as rewarding as actually cs'ing in a solo lane, and not taking the risk makes you the most irrelevant on your team come late game.

Final Spark LuxMar 20, 20161 votes

I lol'd. I only play AP supports, never use armor runes, and I don't use gold runes either, and never have a problem. Obviously you don't play a whole lot of support, because most of what you said is completely wrong.

Axis the DragonMar 20, 20161 votes

It's technically correct when talking about super high elo (likely diamond+) since you rarely if ever see pure ap supports anymore up there (barring Morgana, who still doesn't go a lot of ap anyway)

RedCycloneMar 20, 20162 votes

Just fucking delete utility ratios, they did more harm then good and are as ignored as a gameplay mechanic as dominion was

get rid of them so we can see utility support flourish again, Lulu and Sona's downfall can be pointed to those damn utility ratios

AmetDeCryptMar 20, 20161 votes

I dunno if you missed the memo, but sona is god tier most of the time, and lulu is hella strong in the right hands.

Ariel the CruelMar 20, 20162 votes

Honestly AP scaling utility in general was a failure and the sooner you guys put it to rest the better.

Never forget. "We're going to nerf Utility across the board, but only slows and MS boosts are actually going to gain scaling. WHat could possibly go wrong?"