Understanding Elo systems.

Kai Guy··2 votes·2,178 views

You will need to understand the concepts for Averages. Mean, median, mode .

In a room of 100 people you can determine averages for many things. For example, the average height, the average weight, the average skill in making a grilled cheese sandwich. As long as you have a system to use for measurement you have the ability to find these values. Regardless of if your using inches or centimeters if you arrange people in the room by height from shortest to highest you have the same order, the measurement value is not relevant, The naturally occurring differences in height remain the same regardless of the value assigned to measure it.

Skill in making a grilled cheese requires more information as well as a method of grading the end result. How ever even if it is not measured the gap between ability will result in an average level of skill existing in any group of people even if you have not measured it yet.

For Elo, the core concept he uses is that In a game of skill, more skilled by definition is expected to beat lower skill. Then he built a measuring system from this concept. To start with an average point, a value then measure via pairwise comparison vs that. The values are then broken down into probability expectations complete with room for deviation, humans are inconsistent after all. End of the day there are mathematical expectations for ratings. The exact values do not matter, the gap between 2 values create its expectation. The expectations are universal, Much in the same way some one 2 inches higher. If that's all you know you simply have a Hight gap and you know how big that is. If you know the shorter person is five four then you can generate the Hight for the taller person. This is what Arpad Elo's system is made to do with its Elo points, the starting value for everybody is the same, then it starts measuring vs that value. Your opponent might be misplaced, but there will be an average level of skill in a population so a majority of games even with RNG distribution will net reliably accurate data over time. Law of large numbers does a fantastic job of sorting out rng + Bayesian inference can assist in reducing the total # required to fit some one into the right bracket of skill.

I have been trying to find a way to make the topic more approachable for less math loving folks. Decided to drop discussing the probability theory, distribution models, How to build a curve, etc. Let me know if this post was helpful and feel free to bug me with any questions.

Not by any means an expert but I did take the time to study the basics unlike a huge number of folks on the boards who are very loud about the topic and very confident in their observations but are filled with ignorance on functionality behind Elo and MMR. Rn=Ro+K(W-We) Being the basic adjustment formula from Elo, which uses 0 subjective data. Yet folks insist there's an issue because they grade from their personal experience.

12 Comments

Crispy0Snake1 votes

It's really tough, even for a mathematician, to comprehend how an elo system, a janky discrete thing, would lead to some designed continuous ranked distribution

It's not something your average joe will comprehend, even if tempted by grilled cheese sandwiches

Riot could have their own way of doing it, maybe there are layers of graphs pulled from their own player data used to make their system

Kai Guy1 votes

The concept is so easy thou. Just the execution gets complex and thats mostly due to the massive numbers you have to account for in probability. Factorials suck. I kinda wanna cry when I see a ! In a formula.

The thing is people on the boards don't have a good grasp on the basics. I want to help players understand why subjective data is irrelevant. People still get confused how Elo's formula can rate chess, scrabble, football, and Facebook.

So I'm trying to change my approach and make the concept more assesable to the layman rather then bash my head on the wall trying to teach class intervals and normal distribution.

Subdue1 votes

Conceptually it's not really that difficult to understand. Fat person analogies are probably the easiest.

Joe is heavier than Sarah.

Sarah is heavier than Bill.

Therefore, Joe is heavier than Bill.

If you take 10 fat people, including Joe, and arrange them in different sets of 5, comparing the two sets each time, and the set that Joe is in is heavier than the other every time, you can conclude that Joe is the fattest of the bunch.

Therefore, if you keep comparing different sets of fat people, you can eventually arrange all the fat people in order of how fat they are relative to each other, without ever having to directly measure their weight.

Furthermore, if you take new fat people and start comparing them the same way you compared the others, they will either rise up or drop down until they're not particularly lighter or heavier than those around them.

Kai Guy1 votes

I did Hight because its easy to visualize. I did Grilled cheese next because its a more abstract but gets folks to think about skill and also how good those fucking things are. ,

Off topic. I just got reminded how GOOD A buttery grilled cheese and Tomato soup can be. So I used it as an example as its on my mind.

5050BS1 votes

Of course that is only if those who make the system have that goal instead of some other goal that can look the similar.

Riots goal is $$ not a fair rank.

Riot also lets the rule be broken in ways that spoil any chance of having a fair ranking.

Kai Guy1 votes

Would you explain why Riot would want to let their system be broken? How exactly does that help them $$?

T

5050BS1 votes

Skinner Box Skinner Box and Gaming

Note this part "Repetitive gameplay to the point that it's not fun anymore. The companies are banking on the game being so addicting that you won't care."

The Skinner Box was to make the Rat pull the leaver even tho it would most likely get hurt in the HOPES of getting a reward.

This is Ranked. I get to S1 and then Riots "system" makes me fall to S3 and I keep playing because "I just got to get over that promo game once" The reason most players are in silver is not because of their skill. Its because Riots system wants to as many players as possible to be there. They want to to keep playing and trying for the Gold 4 at the end of the season. Because most (my self included) will stop playing once we get Gold 4.

Ranked is designed to put the carrot just out of reach. Those that get over that are

  1. Vastly more skilled then Gold players
  2. Lucky
  3. Cheat the system (boosting, Duo with #1)

If you really think Riot (owned by tencent) does not only care about $$ then I have some beach property in Nevada to sell you. I have said it before. Riots "ELO" System is not made to make a fair Ranked ladder.

Subdue2 votes

{quoted}

Skinner Box Skinner Box and Gaming

Note this part "Repetitive gameplay to the point that it's not fun anymore. The companies are banking on the game being so addicting that you won't care."

The Skinner Box was to make the Rat pull the leaver even tho it would most likely get hurt in the HOPES of getting a reward.

This is Ranked. I get to S1 and then Riots "system" makes me fall to S3 and I keep playing because "I just got to get over that promo game once" The reason most players are in silver is not because of their skill. Its because Riots system wants to as many players as possible to be there. They want to to keep playing and trying for the Gold 4 at the end of the season. Because most (my self included) will stop playing once we get Gold 4.

Ranked is designed to put the carrot just out of reach. Those that get over that are

  1. Vastly more skilled then Gold players
  2. Lucky
  3. Cheat the system (boosting, Duo with #1)

If you really think Riot (owned by tencent) does not only care about $$ then I have some beach property in Nevada to sell you. I have said it before. Riots "ELO" System is not made to make a fair Ranked ladder.

Let's take off our tinfoil hats for a moment...

Imagine if matchmaking was absolutely perfect, to a magical degree. It knew exactly where everyone should be from their very first game, and all matches are 100% fair. Player's skill never changes, and is consistent every single game. How long would it take a person in Silver 4 to get to Gold 4?

Infinity. In a system where matchmaking is completely fair and player behavior never deviates from their normal performance, a player would never move, because they would always be correctly rated.

And while the tinfoil hat is off for a moment, imagine the level of cognitive dissonance required to look at a match history filled with double digit deaths almost every game and still, STILL think you're better than the people you are playing with.

5050BS1 votes

Just shows how much you know about gamification and how "Free" games work.

  1. Players skill is always changing
  2. Your statements have no barring on what we are talking about.
  3. Classic Rank shaming from a Plat smurf (against the TOU)
Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Just shows how much you know about gamification and how "Free" games work.

  1. Players skill is always changing
  2. Your statements have no barring on what we are talking about.
  3. Classic Rank shaming from a Plat smurf (against the TOU)

The point wasn't that player skill doesn't change. Notice that the statement started with "Imagine." It's called a hypothetical. And the point was that you are looking at a situation which very closely resembles what one would expect from a perfect system under perfect conditions and using that as evidence of foul play.

Also, I said nothing about your rank, other than that the evidence suggests it's accurate.

Finally, this is not a smurf. This is my main account and has been since Season 1.

Kai Guy1 votes

When I see murder (Their prior name before 5050) I offer to duo or help via spectating and coaching. Player just has no accountability on themselves and will argue all bad games are their teammates fault which is riots fault for putting them on a team.

Just completely ignores that some of the shit he complains about is absolutely not MM related because everything that happens after a lobby is in human not system control like some one FP a champ they suck with. MM stops once a lobby is made, no idea how this is overlooked so often. When did everybody forget that PvP gameplay is driven by Players?

Kai Guy1 votes

@skinners box. So in a functional MMR the time to top or climb is eternity by design and definition for the average player. That mouse can pull its lever as much as it wants.

You as a dev control EVERY FUCKING VALUE. Its on a curve. This makes it so that the % of accounts that hit gold can be controlled at all times and it requires no effort (or resources. saves $$$ doing it this way bruh.) to manipulate anything.

The reason most players are in silver is not because of their skill. Its because Riots system wants to as many players as possible to be there

Yea because that's the MMR that represents the average player. Depending on the mathematical theory used there is a expected % of players who build what is called a class interval. The exact # of accounts is irrelevant because its going to constantly shift and change. MMR is not zero sum so there will be more deviation but given that Riot has the ability to control distribution every single time the run a soft reset, Or has the ability to add extra modifications to control Directional Slant. There's absolutely no effort required in proactively rigging games something that requires luck and harms an Elo systems ability to function with accuracy.

Rigging games is not a viable solution as that act will damage the values built by the system it makes for weaker MM. You remove a natural average you cant build skill by comparing it to a natural average. So... Don't say that they use MMR or ELO, Those are Fair systems and they don't function when you forcefully break averages.

There is nothing unfair with average players in a MMR being stuck in the MMR. You how ever, don't think yourself as average. Your bad games are teammates faults, your weak scores are teammates fault, your teammates are riots fault. Nothing is ever on you the one and only constant factor in each game you play.

And hey, I have offered to duo with you multiple times if you think that's all that's necessary to make it out of silver.

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