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Riot for the love of god think before you make changes

Jefftiffy··4 votes·518 views

Cinderhulk was not a bad update. The problem is that it is such a strong item that it is being built on laners. (Remember what happened to old jung items when they were better than the laning versions)

This means that top lane is now running smite because of an extremely broken item. Hell, Cinderhulk outscales Sunfire straight from level 1. Now when you get this at around level 6 you already have a huge advantage over the item.

Going to extremes has caused there to be several perma ban champs. Sejuani Volibear Sion Maokai Skarner . Notice a pattern? I do. They are all tanks that were doing perfectly fine at their jobs before Cinderhulk. Some may not have been common picks, but they were strong nonetheless. Some are still under the radar even now, but with Sion and Sej seeing a lot of competitive play and becoming perma ban its only a little while until we see Maokai, Skarner, and Voli being pulled out to get around that. Then you have 5 perma bans that are all tanks.

Now, I do admit Voli has counter play, but Cinderhulk makes his window just too small. Skarner is not a big pre-6 gank champ, but he does excel at counter jungling pre-6. I would say more about Skarner as he is really strong, but I have not played him enough to really be able to have any good input here. He has been really strong every game I have seen him, and my friends who have picked him up during free weeks have stomped with him.

Maokai has had many issues in the past since his rework and Cinderhulk combined with his new ult are a big issue. His new ult costs too little and can be active for too long and does too much damage for its low CD and mana costs. 10s is a long time. And to be absorbing damage so his ult can put out a bare minimum of 400 damage in an AoE when he is meant to stick to people is stupid when he already has a tank shred gapcloser, a sapling with a slow, and a slow and knock-up in one ability. Cinderhulk makes it so you literally cannot go anywhere within his gapcloser range if you are a squishy. You will die before you can even have a chance of escaping because you will be chased down.

I really think that as good as Cinderhulk is for tanks, it poses a real problem because it synergizes so well with CC and stick potential which is something almost every tank has which is bad for the health of the overall game.

12 Comments

doublelift fg4 votes

laners picking cinderhulk

it must be broken

Remember who use cinderhulk in lane? Tanks, because they scale with hp i never saw it built on darius never saw on garen never saw on top lane cho gat/malphite/renekton

just on the appropriate champions

volibear window is small only in early game, late game he doesn't have armor pene and adc has more than 100 armor reducing the damage by his W by 50% working as intended

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I6mKhKjc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-23T14:31:05.765+0000)

laners picking cinderhulk

it must be broken

Remember who use cinderhulk in lane? Tanks, because they scale with hp i never saw it built on darius never saw on garen never saw on top lane cho gat/malphite/renekton

just on the appropriate champions

volibear window is small only in early game, late game he doesn't have armor pene and adc has more than 100 armor reducing the damage by his W by 50% working as intended

Except he does magic damage and its an execute based on his HP pool. Capable of doing over 600+ damage average. Plenty of ways to get around 100 armor.

doublelift fg1 votes

"The bite will deal physical damage that scales with his own bonus health. This damage will in turn be increased by 1% for every 1% of the target's missing health"http://lol.gamepedia.com/Volibear_-_The_Thunder%27s_Roar bronze who know nothing in the game should not talk at this point.

600 damage average? that means you have 2000 bonus HP with item spending nothing on resistance and attack speed and get countered by the idk how many % hp dmg in the game.

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I6mKhKjc,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-23T14:42:46.064+0000)

"The bite will deal physical damage that scales with his own bonus health. This damage will in turn be increased by 1% for every 1% of the target's missing health"http://lol.gamepedia.com/Volibear_-_The_Thunder%27s_Roar bronze who know nothing in the game should not talk at this point.

600 damage average? that means you have 2000 bonus HP with item spending nothing on resistance and attack speed and get countered by the idk how many % hp dmg in the game.

Randuins, Spirit Visage, Warmogs, and cinderhulk. Not that hard. No reses. What are you talking about. Its not that hard to get 2k bonus hp. In fact the average bruiser has around 3.8k total hp.

Apollocliptic2 votes

I never build Armor pen on Voli (mostly because I pure tank and have jungler be more bruiser) but I still delete adc's with R + W, once you hit a couple R hits, the W deletes most adc's regardless of their armour. Still I don't build cinderhulk in lane, I stick to sunfire if I find the need

doublelift fg1 votes

"regardless of their armor" i must see that because every volibear after lvl 15+ struggle to kill me not forgetting health per lvl which complitly negage volibear's execute since he doesn't build damage

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I6mKhKjc,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-04-23T14:57:46.930+0000)

"regardless of their armor" i must see that because every volibear after lvl 15+ struggle to kill me not forgetting health per lvl which complitly negage volibear's execute since he doesn't build damage

Except that Voli gets around 600 damage off in 3 ulted AAs and his Q adds in to around 700 damage add in Cinderhulk and you are looking at a 500 base damage attack that can execute for up to 1k. So if he sits on you long enough you will have around 700 health when he bites meaning you now have around 200-100 hp to live off of. Have fun with that. See how long you live with Voli on your ass and 200-100 hp. This is not even including his Roar for around 200 damage. Include that and you are more than likely dead. Meanwhile your team is forced to focus him and he literally doesn't die for a solid 5-10s in the middle of an enemy team while his team blows up yours.

Apollocliptic1 votes

{quoted}

Except that Voli gets around 600 damage off in 3 ulted AAs and his Q adds in to around 700 damage add in Cinderhulk and you are looking at a 500 base damage attack that can execute for up to 1k. So if he sits on you long enough you will have around 700 health when he bites meaning you now have around 200-100 hp to live off of. Have fun with that. See how long you live with Voli on your ass and 200-100 hp. This is not even including his Roar for around 200 damage. Include that and you are more than likely dead. Meanwhile your team is forced to focus him and he literally doesn't die for a solid 5-10s in the middle of an enemy team while his team blows up yours.

Well said, I was thinking maybe Doublelift forgot that we're talking about the adc, not top laner. Volibears W scales with HP too, which by late game I usually have about 4K, 5K with full build (situational) If you have a thorn game too, fighting back isn't even an option for an ADC, Kiting i of course, but we're talking about straight damage here

Apollocliptic3 votes

I was reading peacefully until your point about Maokai. His damage is garbage, and since they nerfed his ultimate to only 10 seconds, it got much weaker, but is usable. If they shorten the duration any further it becomes pointless. Maokai is very slow, and his gap closer has very limited range. So even though he is more powerful he sticks to you, it's not as easy as it sounds, especially since he's not meant to engage solo, his ultimate is there to protect the team more than deal oodles of damage. As far as top laners and tank jungler's go, he has very poor damage output, cinderhulk closes that gap ofc, and if you build iceborn he can squash squishy champs. But until he builds Righteous Glory or Iceborn, his ultimate drains his mana so much that he has to Re after every gank, unless he takes all the blues. Even after I have both those massive mana items, that ultimate is a mana drain, and if it consumed more mana and laster less time that would be a hyper nerf that makes Maokai much less viable.

Other than that Maokai comment, I see your point, but I agree with what someone else said more, that adding cinderhulk immediately after nerfing the warrior enchantment was too much, buffing cinderhulk first would have been a safer testing route. Still, smite top tanks are still not wisest option even with the cinderhulk edge, they also lose out on a lot of armour, which can be dangerous if they rush cinderhulk, and make them at a big disadvantage if they don't (since they have smite...)

BerserkGoldfish2 votes

No tanks were doing fine before cinderhulk. not since the jg item changes (when they dropped the "spirit" items.)

They did think, they thought "wow, tanks are really awful at everything above gold, maybe we should look into this."

Now theyre thinking, "huh, turns out it helping tanks see the light of day in high ELO matches, we made them oppressive to people that don't know how to play against tanks."

GG Rito

BerserkGoldfish1 votes

if voli is going bitebear he should probably also buy BC

Rebonack1 votes

If Deathcap and Infinity Edge built out of Machete, I can assure you that Mages and ADCs would be running Smite, too.

Sticking a much needed multiplicative passive on a Jungle item was a bad idea. It should have been added to a new item (or a remade Warmog's) and Cinderhulk's burn damage should scale with max HP. That would allow Tanks to double-dip gold multiplication with Cinder and whatever the +25% Bonus HP item would be.

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