Class Updates shouldn't be used to redefine champions

Big Lincoln··124 votes·4,840 views

They never turn out well.

The reworks that have been the most well received are the ones that do the opposite. Going only off the major ones, Darius Katarina Vladimir Cassiopeia Caitlyn MissFortune All of these reworks did not 'reinvent' the character or forsake their current player base in hopes of drawing in a new crowd. They took what the character already has, and they improved upon that by adding nuance to their kits to modernize them, or by focusing them around their existing high points and pushing them even further into what made them so appealing to begin with. Most of their balance problems post-rework were numbers issues and could be solved easily; otherwise, they are good reworks.

Conversely, almost all of the reworks that people regard as the worst usually involve Riot trying to push them to do something entirely different, because they had a new 'direction' for that champion. Skarner Mordekaiser Leblanc KogMaw Malzahar are some of the worst offenders in this regard; their existing player base and what they may want out of a rework was not taken into consideration, and more importantly, Riot tried to completely change the champion** while keeping most of their kit intact. ** That's the biggest reason I think these gimmick reworks fail so often; their scope is far beyond what a class update can offer to them, because they try to redefine these champions, while leaving such a large portion of their original kit intact. On the flip side, making those reworks bigger than a Class Update makes them an overhaul, which leaves them even more separated from their original identity, which feels just as bad or worse for the people who play them. The only exception to this, that I know of, is Graves, and he's been very controversial since his rework with strong opinions on both sides. And I think we're seeing the same thing with this update; Sejuani and Maokai are being 'redefined' as champions instead of being built upon, and the people who play them are not very happy about it.

So please keep this in mind when you decide on the next class update; if they can't be easily and quickly modernized and improved upon without changes that completely repurpose them, consider setting them aside for an individual rework later, where you can look at them more intimately.

151 Comments

yay nibbers23 votes

I still sorely miss old Skarner. I want my racecar with scissors back...

LSmaster161 votes

Not sure if this is just me since I haven't played him too much but he's seemed pretty good when I've played him, both jungle and top lane.

SpecterVonBaren9 votes

There's a difference between being viable and being fun or optimal. Skarner isn't weak as he is now but in terms of damage you could pick Hecarim and get better results with a kit that's pretty similar to his and in terms of CC there are far more reliable choices. The only reason to pick Skarner is the same reason that has been his one crutch for his entire existence which is his ult. The spire passive is a gimmick that does nothing to make him worth picking over any other champion since they just give him steroids.

Fisher No Chains22 votes

Honestly class updates just made things even worse for some champions.

I main LB, and I honestly liked that idea of making her playstyle more deceiving-oriented, but the rework was an absolute failure. Right now she's a clunky balance nightmare... What did the rework accomplish? Nothing at all, she's a waveclear bot and there's no reason to pick her over Ahri or other assassins except for maybe her mobility. Old LB was annoying but somehow balanced, new LB will NEVER be balanced as long as she remains in her current state kit-wise (and let's be honest, she's still annoying as fuck).

Skarner went from a "niche pick" state to a disgustingly broken state and now he isn't even a niche pick anymore after hotfix/nerfs because just like for LB, there are way better champions that can do similar stuff, but better.

No matter how much effort Riot puts into balancing entire classes, it's not going to work if they can't even keep in mind what those champions are supposed to be.

Sejuani is gonna be the tank update failure. I called it here.

Bunnymap2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly class updates just made things even worse for some champions.

I main LB, and I honestly liked that idea of making her playstyle more deceiving-oriented, but the rework was an absolute failure. Right now she's a clunky balance nightmare... What did the rework accomplish? Nothing at all, she's a waveclear bot and there's no reason to pick her over Ahri or other assassins except for maybe her mobility. Old LB was annoying but somehow balanced, new LB will NEVER be balanced as long as she remains in her current state kit-wise (and let's be honest, she's still annoying as fuck).

What I never got about them balancing Leblanc was why they decided to nerf literally every ability except her Chains (And passive because #counterplay). The chains aren't even an iconic or core part of her kit, but they decide to gut the W and make the Q only useful as waveclear. Literally everyone asked for the chains to be reduced in tether range or hitbox, but they don't even mention it anywhere.

Fisher No Chains2 votes

Chain is also the main thing that makes her extremely annoying. I would be totally ok with them halving the chain range and fix the interaction with her passive just to get W damage back.

Teridax6816 votes

Scope versus goals are, imo, one of the biggest issues with class update reworks so far. You can redefine a champion, and you can leave their kit mostly intact, but you can't have both at the same time, and trying to do so with the limited time and resources of a class update is bound to end up with a middling kit that will be both confusing to play and difficult to balance, while usually also needing more in-depth work in the future. Mordekaiser is perhaps the biggest example of this, as the goal of his update went beyond even some major VGUs, yet his changes fell so short that it took months of follow-up to get him back to a playable state, even though his innate, E and R all played the same.

The innate scope restrictions imposed by class updates are also what make me question their associated champion reworks: the original goal of these big batch updates was to do quick, efficient work on a large set of champions who would otherwise take months to receive a full VGU, but each milestone has proven that the playerbase doesn't really like it when their champions get changed, yet don't receive enough of a full treatment to be in the most perfect spot they can be. Cutting the Tank Update down to 3 champions is a direct consequence of this, but also begs the question as to why those champions didn't just get assigned their own pods. I get that having more teams generates more complexity in coordination, communication, etc., but pulling a few more designers into a hypothetical Pod C, in addition to the current ChampUp pods A and B, could boost the rate of updates by about 50%, which is huge. Having each of those pods work on a champion in conjunction with an upcoming class update could also produce flagship reworks with a far higher chance of succeeding, and would likely require less follow-up work in the process.

Alternatively, the solution should just be to not force champion reworks to fit a class update deadline, and instead focus more resources on changes to itemization and other linked systems. A recurring issue with class updates is that their item changes often don't really address their intended goals, and sometimes generate more issues in the process: the juggernaut items spawned a wave of tanky assassin/marksman builds that abused DMP and Sterak's, the marksman item changes failed to produce true diversity and choice for the class, the Mage Update ruined a lot of items, and the Lethality mechanic added during the Assassin Update continues to generate issues, in part because it's being abused by marksmen, but also because the feature ended up being really difficult to balance properly. The Tank Update was supposed to definitively answer the problem with tanky itemization being generic, stat-heavy and too beneficial to squishy damage classes, but the end result ended up being just two new items and some stat shifts towards resists. Time will tell if this will truly achieve the goals that were originally set, but for now I'm skeptical, and I think many more items could/should have been redone entirely.

Xicashina10 votes

Wait was the Cassiopeia rework well received, I thought it was unanimously hated?

Keevalroy6 votes

The first one was. I'd say at best, this new one was mixed - better than the first attempt, but not quite what was desired.

LankPants7 votes

At bare minimum if they are going are going to try to redefine champions (which to be clear they shouldn't) they should at least pick champions who actually need to be redefined. If 6 months ago you asked me to name 5 tank champions who I thought would be the least valuble to work on I think I would have said something like Sion>Poppy>Zac>Sejuani>Leona. I think the only moderately justifiable choice of tank to work on for one of these large scope reworks was Maokai.

I'd personally say they went the absolute wrong direction for the tank reworks however. Rather than trying to do an in-depth rework on 3 champs who didn't warrant it anyway they should have looked at small scale updates (like the Amumu one) for 6 or 7. The thing about tanks right now is that they're either already pretty solid as in the cases of Alistar Amumu Braum Gragas Leona Maokai Nautilus Poppy Sejuani Sion Taric Zac or they're utterly abysmal and need larger work like Chogath Galio (old) Malphite Rammus Skarner TahmKench . The only tank I think falls between them and would have benefited from changes on this scope is Shen , but I think it's still too soon after his rework for Riot to admit it's anything other than perfect.

IMO what they should have done is smaller scope changes for Amumu, Gragas, Leona, Maokai, Naut and Sej, I don't even think Zac needed smaller scope changes. They also should have bundled Galio with this and marketed him as part of the tank update rather than a sole rework. No actual changes other than a later release date, just make that the focus of the rework rather than trying to work on tanks who don't need it.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I highly disagree on Leona, she needs a modernization to her kit due to how binary it is.

LankPants4 votes

Her kit's a lot like Ashe's, it's simple and that's what makes it excellent.

It's a high risk kit, it has a single goal sure, but it's not like it's Veigar levels of "Nuke or be useless". You really want to get an engage in as Leona, but you can also function as a peeling tank.

Gregor Gysi2 votes

I disagree - Ashe provides decent range and waveclear so that she can't be bullied. Leona, however, has no come back mechanism at all, going in is all she does. I think her passive needs some work..

grittedblade2 votes

it works in theory since it promotes follow ups from other champs but its a bit lackluster and there are supports who do something very similar but much better.

macromite5 votes

binary kits belong in the game as well.

This game isn't 1v1, it's 5v5, so knowing how your champion interacts and bounces off of the other 9 champions can create interesting play even if your champion isn't incredibly complex. leo does that well.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Simple kits belong in the game. Simple and binary are not the same thing. Whenever I pick Tahm after the enemy picks Leona I make it so she becomes all but useless in lane, the same goes if I pick Alistar. I just think she needs SOMETHING she can do when she's not capable of going ham on an enemy team like how Alistar has his passive heal.

Something simple like removing the damage on her W and making the explosion instead give bonus resists to allies or some similar defensive utility would be a change that could help with this, something like that could also still be an offensive tool as it would help any teammates she has that want to dive in with her.

QuickenedBlade6 votes

Leblanc pre rework: Q R "haha outplayed" Leblanc post rework: E Q "haha outplayed"

YambrinZ5 votes

You left out Sion and Poppy Whose reworks completely changed their playstyle....how convenient.

Big Lincoln51 votes

They aren't class updates.

Spoofghoul1 votes

And you cannot really consider Sion a rework

Original sion was literally made as a joke

they just decided it was time to do something about it and make him an actual champion Though that is a long time ago now and he could use a small update to modernize him a bit

The current tank update would have been a perfect time

His kit doesn't really need any changes, just a few touch ups and modernization would have made him perfect again

Imo a far better candidate then sejuani who would arguably needed more work then what the tank update offers in order to satisfy her player base theme and niche

Edit Lol i like how i get 16 downvotes, for suggesting to modernize Sion haha. There are like 5 sion players on the boards. Yet somehow all these ''experts'' and ''mains'' know all of it better ahahaha xD

Big Lincoln8 votes

i was completely fine with sej as is, i only wanted a less awful clear. if she needed to get reworked then I would have preferred they kept her as the slow-tank and built around that thematic instead of trying to make her line up with the other two Freljord girls

Sion as a champion is good but as a rework, I consider him a failure. It's a shame that we lost two hyper carries to relaunches

Anu3isII1 votes

Just to be sure, the second relaunch you are referencing... is it Tristana's? Just to be sure I'm not the only one who considers her rework a huge failure...

Big Lincoln6 votes

poppy

Automated Riven3 votes

why is this downvoted? poppy was the complete and total hyper carry. Probably the only one capable of legit 1v5 with everyone at 6 items.

Anidan1 votes

Old Poppy was basically a DotA hyper-carry. She started out very weak, only being able to lane against a handful of people and even then it wasn't a great matchup for her, but as the game went on she got stronger and stronger at a rate that was slow at first and then ramped up to insanity. However, even with her insanity that was late-game, she had a very narrow kit focus in what she could do or how she could do it. She couldn't farm well, she couldn't split-push quickly, but she could definitely kill you, and you wouldn't have much of an answer for it.

The problem? As I see it: League isn't built for hyper-carries anymore. Games end too quickly, and their kits are too easily abused in this game, making them look like binary feast-or-famine designs. That's probably why none really exist on the level of Spectre or Medusa anymore in League; Poppy was the last one.

That said, for the sake of League specifically, I'm not sure if it's actually sad like Lincoln says it is. It looks like it was more or less bound to happen due to the different direction League has decided to go with their design philosophy. More than anything, I'm just surprised Sion was made a tank rather than his Melee Carry route or AP Bruiser route of the old Sion. Sion feels like a failure in that he is nothing like old Sion in the slightest, but I feel like he's a success in that he's generally well designed. Similar for Poppy: nothing like old Poppy, but barring numbers being overtuned she seems fairly well-designed (like with Sion, your opinion may vary). As relaunches, they're successes; as carriers of their former champion's identity, they're failures. Is what it is.

Automated Riven3 votes

I could have accepted the change from a hyper carry to an assassin or a melee carry. I was (and am still a little) pissed about them changing her to a tank. They could have easilly changed her passive and ult (which were the only things which were inherently broken about her kit) and then changed her into an ad carry or assassin. hell even a bruiser would have been better and likely would have fit her kit better. Now you cant really build her has a bruiser because of the way that her kit works. it just doesnt make sense.

LankPants14 votes

I actually don't think Sejuani needed much of an update at all. All she needed was a small buff to her passive IMO, it was honestly underwhelming and she was a clearly underpowered champ anyway, it would have been a great time just to touch her passive up a bit.

Just something like "Sejuani gains armour equal to 5+0.003(HP) and MR equal to 0.003(HP), this bonus is increased by 50% for every enemy champion Sejuani has CCed" would have been great. Just a simple upgrade that played to her theme and role rather than a full overhaul.

Elikain6 votes

Sejuani was flat out uninteresting in her old form. There was so much power in her ult and Permafrost that her kit (without her ult) was flat out boring to play and constrained to her melee range. Without any reliable gap closers, you just couldn't do anything and her damage from her W was also been nerfed to hell, thanks to Liandry's purchases in her distant past.

And she was boring because she had to do all this herself. This way, she still retained her kit's powerful CC and damage but it's less of a "full team CC power" oriented and more along the lines of "really good for single target lockdown" and soft CC area control. Not to mention that her melee allies can help her stack her passive.

LankPants2 votes

And she was boring because she had to do all this herself. This way, she still retained her kit's powerful CC and damage but it's less of a "full team CC power" oriented and more along the lines of "really good for single target lockdown" and soft CC area control. Not to mention that her melee allies can help her stack her passive.

You just named what makes Sej's old kit good and her new one garbage, good job.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Updates in general should not be used to redefine champions, regardless of being part of a mass project.

Rengooo4 votes

Rengar

ExternalLink2 votes

{quoted}

Rengar

Rest in peace.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

wasn't better pre rework

Rengooo1 votes

To play against maybe? Does that justify leaving them in the dumpster?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

don't start to cry is just garbage since once or two patch

Rengooo1 votes

I haven't properly played him since the rework. He's in the dumpster because the rework failed miserably, the fact that he is nerfed into the dumpster is evidence of that.

I don't play him because he doesn't feel like Rengar any more, like the post states... there are lots of Reworks that have actually changed the champs significantly, Rengar's is no exception. He is now a tanky bruiser that feels nothing like the previous.

Have I made my point?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

He's in the dumpster because the rework failed miserably, the fact that he is nerfed into the dumpster is evidence of that.

like most of lethality user

Rengooo2 votes

Pretty sure thats a alot more to do with meta shifts and the like.. Talon seems ok? Zed is marginal.. Kha is strong still..

Hyrum Graff4 votes

Friend, you have forgotten much about the cass update. Boards was furious about it until the follow up work several months later.

In my opinion Malz is in a similar spot. The rework fixed what they wanted it to, but needs another pass for completion.

Voluug133 votes

Conversely, almost all of the reworks that people regard as the worst usually involve Riot trying to push them to do something entirely different, because they had a new 'direction' for that champion.

Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma

Automated Riven2 votes

god damn I miss old karma. Every time I think of her and pre rework poppy I cry a little inside.

Automated Riven3 votes

cass did completly change the champion tho. She went from a massive AOE burn poison mage to a auto pilot spam e to do damage mage. her rework also alienated a large portion of her fan base (myself included) because most of us then played her for her massive AOE and zone control which she only has a gimped version of now. She didnt use to need e to kill people. It was bonus damage but you were able to sit out of fights and do less damage by spamming q max range and saving e for when they dove. now in order to even do anything besides tickly squishies you have to get aa range.

Nevrankroaton3 votes

How many thread do you produce? It is actually amazing how much you can write about the same topic, just doing different focus and words so it would still sink the idea that "I don't like the way you do the rework/gameplay update" while not looking like a rant.

I admire that, I still find interesting points in your writing but the bias is so easily visible it is kinda saddening.

Also Skarner gained a gimmick more than something that destroyed him. It is the stats, scaling and items that kinda hit him hard.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Talon rework is great (i played him before rework too).

Could be great if assassin rework totally killed Fizz Ekko tank (both played tank in lck this year)

macromite4 votes

to be entirely fair ekko is actually a tank. riot was dumb as fuck to give him two things that scale with tank stats (Heal+shield) multiple slows and a multi target hard cc without saying he was a tank

Doozku2 votes

Not to say all rework a work like this. Talon's rework redefined his play style while Rengar's didn't. Guess which rework was better.

LankPants7 votes

How did Talon's rework redefine his playstyle? Before he was a super bursty mobile assassin who typically controlled the game with his early dominance via roams, now he's a super bursty mobile assassin who typically controls the game with his early dominance via roams.

Talon is still basically the same as he was in terms of playstyle.

Rengar's also destined to be a toxic lump of trash until Riot removes his instakill. He's a champ who's very in need of a large scale rework eventually.

Looknook2 votes

His update made him better at roaming. It also made him not a pick if better than Zed champ. He does some things better than Zed and some worse. Overall he might play similar but that's the point of an update. To focus the champ more.

subhuman team XD2 votes

You forgot rengar too , hes by far the worst rework to ever happen in league's history , the least they couldve done is keep the quotes as they were now half his VO is gone ...

Predatorator2 votes

The worst? Skarner got changed 3 times for no real reason. now he lost the ability to lane, lots of junglers still take objectives better than him ("premier of the line objective controller" should've been his new niche), etc.

not to say that skarner reworks were the worst (the second one made him actually fine), but rengar's is far from the being the worst

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