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I swear you buy the tiniest amount of mr and immediately become unkillable to AP

koshkyra··130 votes·6,260 views

EDIT: because someone i am not going to call out by name decided to copy paste something in this thread without giving any context (while also managing to label me as some kind of mindless, upvote-farming, adc circlejerker)i am going to quickly post some math that explains why i'm right about my vayne claim.

Vayne vs Malphite (4000 health, 200 armor)

Vayne W: 480 damage Vayne auto: Lets say it crits for 1100, and is then reduced by 66% (200 armor) and is now 366 damage. Then you factor in item 3036 and you get (+20% damage) (-35% bonus armor) and you end up with the AA dealing rougly 542 damage. item 3087- assuming he has about 150 mr, lets say, SS will deal about 175 damage on a crit. Lastly, vayne's tumble increases the damage of the autoattack by 50% (not the crit part) so it ends up dealing about 790 damage.

So, you add them up, and you end up with roughly 1480total damage, one vayne auto, versus a malphite with 4k health, 200 armor, and 150 mr.

ORIGINAL THREAD START__

I dont get how it happens like wtf

It doesnt matter how ahead you are, enemy buys item 3111 (cherry on top: item 3155 if they're AD) and suddenly you do no damage to them.

Meanwhile you buy fucking 200 armor and its like you just wasted gold because gj now the enemy vayne is doing 1.1k damage per tumble crit instead of 1.4k.

I dont understand how this happens if armor and mr work the same

166 Comments

BobaFlautist44 votes

Here's why: Let's say you're very relatively squishy, and only have 1300 health

Let's say the mage overkills you by 100 damage, doing 1400 damage over a 5 second combo with the following damage distribution:

Ability Damage Cooldown Q - 250 - 5s W - 300 - 10s E - 350 - 12s
R - 500 - 100s

The scumbag auto-attacker, on the other hand, auto attacks you once a second and does 200 a hit, overkilling you by 100 after 7s

If you have 100 armor and MR, you got 50% damage reduction, which sets your effective health at 2600. Now the auto attacker kills you after 23s, just under twice as long. Makes sense, right?

The poor mage on the other hand, does 1400 damage - then waits for q CD - then waits for W cooldown...so on. After 12 seconds, they've done 2550 damage - 50 damage to go. after 2.4 times as long. But it then takes them a further three seconds to kill you, totalling 15s spent - three times as long as the initial combo.

TL;DR, the existence of cooldowns means damage reduction will always have a skewed effect towards AP champions reliant on burst.

AmazoX4 votes

{quoted}

Here's why: Let's say you're very relatively squishy, and only have 1300 health

Let's say the mage overkills you by 100 damage, doing 1400 damage over a 5 second combo with the following damage distribution:

Ability Damage Cooldown Q - 250 - 5s W - 300 - 10s E - 350 - 12s
R - 500 - 100s

The scumbag auto-attacker, on the other hand, auto attacks you once a second and does 200 a hit, overkilling you by 100 after 7s

If you have 100 armor and MR, you got 50% damage reduction, which sets your effective health at 2600. Now the auto attacker kills you after 23s, just under twice as long. Makes sense, right?

The poor mage on the other hand, does 1400 damage - then waits for q CD - then waits for W cooldown...so on. After 12 seconds, they've done 2550 damage - 50 damage to go. after 2.4 times as long. But it then takes them a further three seconds to kill you, totalling 15s spent - three times as long as the initial combo.

TL;DR, the existence of cooldowns means damage reduction will always have a skewed effect towards AP champions reliant on burst.

Feels like this was written by a Riot from the balance team that is undercover, never mind, none of them is capable of explaining such things logically or this beautifully EXCEPT for RIOT REPERTOIRE.

Everything aside, Well said. 🤗

bywords709 votes

The main reason is that armor scales while mr does not. champions have around 100 armor at lvl 18 while their mr stays at 30. For them to do the same damage, adcs will need to do more damage. however the problem is that 50 mr will reduce much more damage than 50 armor will. against a double flat pen build which reduces 30 mr to 0, 50 mr is a 50% increase in survivability, while 50 armor on top of 100 armor is only a 25% increase in survivability. so basically mr items are twice as efficient as armor items, which of course is completely unfair but riot thinks its ok.

riot needs to completely rebalance how armor works and how physical damage works in line with mages.

Melledoneus26 votes

I think Riot needs to first address ADCs.

Tanks are melting even with full armor builds unless they straight up dive the ADC successfully and manage to lock them down long enough for the team to curbstomp them.

BobaFlautist9 votes

Lemme start by saying I'm 90% on your side - I never play adc (last hitting too hard!), and I always hate how easy it feels for enemy adcs to shred me when I am a tank.

All that being said, let me play the devil(adc)'s advocate: what do you think they should be good at in a teamfight?

Obviously they're meant to be effective at sieging and taking objectives, but if they have low impact in teamfights then it's not up to the adc player whether or not they get access to the objective in the first place, which is a much bigger deal than optimizing dps - which is to say if the only thing they supposed to do is hit towers and Dragon/Baron, there's very little room for skill expression; therefore, they need to matter in teamfights.

People want assassins and mages to be effective against adcs, which means they can't do too much frontloaded damage or damage to squishies. People also want light and heavy fighters to be able to contribute to full-blown teamfights and threaten adcs, which means they can't do too much damage to targets of a medium level of durability - otherwise they just shred bruisers.

So...that leaves tanks. If adcs can't burst, and can't shred bruisers, that leaves tanks. It's one thing if you're saying "Adcs are taking tanks out just a bit too quickly given their relative durability, their tankbusting should be hit a little but they can still keep a decent amount of power there", but if you don't want them to kill tanks....what are they supposed to do in a teamfight? Die? Run away screaming? If they're nothing but a potential liability in teamfights, they might as well opt out, going to hide in base until their team wins a fight and then peeking out to right-click objectives. You have to give them something worth doing in a fight, or...they won't teamfight.

5050BS2 votes

Here is my thoughts on things.

Fighter = Off Tank mid range HP, Lifesteals to stay alive, has some CC but low movement, Need to be CCed to ether kite or stun so they can be killed else they will kill you over time. (Think Illaoi)

Immobile Burst Mage = Squishy Low HP and few to no escapes, has Hard CC, can combo 80-0 squishy or 50-0 Fighter or 20-0 Tank but is a squishy (Think Veigar)

Assassin/ Mobile Burst Mage = Squishy low HP with good movement and 1-2 escapes, can combo down a Squishy 80-0, 50-0 a Fighter, 20-0 a Tank but is squishy (think Zed, LeB)

Skirmisher = Off Tank mid range HP, LifeSteal or abilities that shield to stay alive, has no CC but high movement, Needs to be CCed to kill (Think Udry without bear stance)

Tank = High HP, Built in Def boost from Abilities or Shields, resistant to CC (hard and Soft), has Hard CC, low Damage, cant 1v1 but can almost always run away. (Think Nautilus)

All champs should fit in to these 5 roles.

ADC is a Skirmisher or a Fighter (Vayne or Graves)

BobaFlautist1 votes

So you think Marksman should be abolished as a role. I'm not gonna argue one way or another about that, but that's not something we're likely to see any time soon.

TeCoolMage7 votes

To be fair marksmen should have undergone the treatment the old 'disruptor' class did. It was removed because the things it did apparently should be doable by all classes. And they used Caitlyn as an example even though her traps are hardly her main thing.

Marksmen are quite literally defined by having right click damage that's ranged and that's it. All champions in other classes, whether it's Azir, Urgot, Kayle, Orianna or Janna should be able to have right click damage in their kit.

But this is me mostly being salty about disruptor's removal

AirKingNeo2 votes

Tanks are melting even with full armor builds unless they straight up dive the ADC successfully and manage to lock them down long enough for the team to curbstomp them.

That is a lie and you have no proof to back it up.

Jmman2 votes

This doesn't take inconsideration skill shots or auto-attackers abilities.

Mages autos do no damage. AD spells do.

AP doesn't have crit and attackspeed. Yes they scale more from CD. But this alone would kind of be equal to attack speed.

Then we have to look at mana to run oom vs auto attacks using no resources.

Maybe if they brought back the talent or let mages add a part of their ap to auto attacks and made mana add crit. But then they would have to up the AP damage because of the no resource thing. Then we have to look at skill shots can but dodged be auto attacks can't be.

LordGeovanni4 votes

Wow those look like lisandra cooldowns as in they dont exist on mages in this game anymore except on lissandra and none of them have been touched by cdr either When you have to try super hard to avoid Cdr on mages. didnt get past your base damage either, but ill give you that you also didnt factor in magic resist too.

Häxel1 votes

even lissandra has on q max 3s cd without cdr. I don't know any mage with such a q cd unless their main spam ability is e or/and they have a reset ability like ryze or katarina. And yea, 20-40/45 cdr can even reduce more. I believe the only mages with even higher cd as this exampel are Lux and Morgana ( not the most viabel midmages for a reason).

A Latte Deaths2 votes

Morgana is a top tier mid mage and Lux is high tier.

Cowgirl Ed23 votes

ranged ad need to be reworked in general, everybody agrees at this point riot said is doing someting for "botlane" and i hope this means "we are deleting ranged ad from summoners rift"

HalcyonDweller17 votes

i hope this means "we are deleting ranged ad from summoners rift"

That is not a valid or tenable solution to the game's problems. If the only "solutions" you think should be used are to fuck over the people who are different from us then you should remove yourself from the discussion of solutions.

Cowgirl Ed12 votes

how naive you have to be to not understand that's obviously a joke

HalcyonDweller8 votes

Most people here who make such inexpressive jokes (not an insult, I promise) know to use italics or "/s" to indicate that they are being sarcastic or ironic in their statements.

ChaddyFantome4 votes

{quoted}

Most people here who make such inexpressive jokes (not an insult, I promise) know to use italics or "/s" to indicate that they are being sarcastic or ironic in their statements.

It was obviously a joke, dude....

Supreme Senpai6921 votes

It's because magic damage is gated by cooldowns, but physical damage is gated by attack speed. If your survive the burst from a mage you live. You win. Good job. If you survive an auto attack from a Marksman, well... you have to survive another one. And another one. And another one. All the while they're being healed with each one.

That's why mages counter marksmen. Marksmen can't heal through burst. That's why tanks counter mages. Mages can't burst through all of a tank's HP and defenses. And that's why Marksmen counter tanks. They just use tanks for lifesteal.

Its DPS. You're lowering the D for both, but not the S for one. You need to buy things like Ninja Tabi or Randuins or Frozen Heart.

(Of course ADCs kind of counter everything right now because they have sustained burst damage with utility. But that's besides the point.)

Who Fed Ru17 votes

item 3135

koshkyra9 votes

item 3036 item 3071

Lil Homie busta11 votes

item 3916 item 3020

Btw, void ignores ALL mr, not only bonus, unlikely item 3035.

Hópe16 votes

Listen James the mage

You cant say

{quoted}

It doesnt matter how ahead you are, enemy buys item 3111 (cherry on top: item 3155 if they're AD) and suddenly you do no damage to them.

Then say

Meanwhile you buy fucking 200 armor and its like you just wasted gold because gj now the enemy vayne

You said every AP champ gets voided when someone buys MR

but then compared buying armor to shit against Vayne

You literally chose a champ who ignores armor and used that as your argument. Thats equivalent to me saying

I hate how i can have 200 armor but Camille makes me feel like i have 0 armor

Thats because she fucking does. 200 armor Against Caitlyn Jinx Zed Yasuo Talon is going to feel like shit for them. Theres a lot more im just giving an example.

koshkyra9 votes

Im going to change my name if one more person tries to use the fact that my name has "mage" in it as a viable argument for why im wrong. Seriously, stop.

Also, all you did was support my argument by saying "there are more examples besides vayne".

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

soopcan5 votes

Hey man, there's nothing wrong with addressing someone by their name. And that wasn't his argument anyways lol

RocketRelm8 votes

I think the bolding in particular was a stab at covertly saying "of course you're biased you're a mage player, thusly I should disregard your argument". It can be easily construed as an ad-hominem.

Catastrop5 votes

Thats because she fucking does. 200 armor Against Caitlyn Jinx Zed Yasuo Talon is going to feel like shit for them. Theres a lot more im just giving an example.

The only people who are actually feeling 200 armour from your list are Zed, Yasuo(arguable thanks to his ult I will admit) and Talon. Basically everyone that isn't a ranged AD carry.

Hópe17 votes

{quoted}

The only people who are actually feeling 200 armour from your list are Zed, Yasuo(arguable thanks to his ult I will admit) and Talon. Basically everyone that isn't a ranged AD carry.

Yep ranged AD carrys dont feel armor they do true damage yup. We should just do ADC top mid jg and double ranged adc bot lane.

How misconstrued are your arguments. Zed Yasuo and Talon are not supposed to be hitting tanks in the first place ( Yasuo maybe ) while ranged AD CARRIES ARE SUPPOSED TO HIT THE TANK

No shit they should be doing more damage to tanks than assassins.

NemeBro3 votes

{quoted}

Yep ranged AD carrys dont feel armor they do true damage yup. We should just do ADC top mid jg and double ranged adc bot lane.

How misconstrued are your arguments. Zed Yasuo and Talon are not supposed to be hitting tanks in the first place ( Yasuo maybe ) while ranged AD CARRIES ARE SUPPOSED TO HIT THE TANK

No shit they should be doing more damage to tanks than assassins.

Yasuo can hit the tanks just fine. Few tanks will last long under focus fire from Yasuo and an ADC. 100% crit plus 50% bonus armour pen (meaning he doesn't actually have to buy a LW item, which is good) makes him among the best tank-busting melee champions in the game.

Hópe1 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo can hit the tanks just fine.

But he shouldnt.

Few tanks will last long under focus fire from Yasuo and an ADC. 100% crit plus 50% bonus armour pen (meaning he doesn't actually have to buy a LW item, which is good)

Might as well pick Tryndamere then?? Yasuo has way more mobility and can get to the backline way easier then Yas can, just because he can hit a tank and melt one doesnt mean he should be hitting tanks instead of squishies.

makes him among the best tank-busting melee champions in the game.

So you just stated that a melee champ is good against 200 armor, something OP went against.

NemeBro3 votes

{quoted}

But he shouldnt.

No, he often should, depending on the scenario. Yasuo and his subclass are designed around being target-agnostic. He should be killing whoever he can do so most safely, much like an ADC.

Might as well pick Tryndamere then??

I'd pick Tryndamere if I wanted to pressure the map and be nearly unbeatable 1v1 while avoiding team fights. Similarly, if I wanted to near-exclusively dive and kill an isolated ADC, I'd pick Zed. Yasuo is not so binary.

Yasuo has way more mobility and can get to the backline way easier then Yas can, just because he can hit a tank and melt one doesnt mean he should be hitting tanks instead of squishies.

If he can safely kill the ADC or mage, then of course he generally should be. But the game isn't that simple, and I frankly don't know you're pretending it is.

So you just stated that a melee champ is good against 200 armor, something OP went against.

Go on.

Hópe3 votes

Feels like this argument is just that. An argument. OP stated you buy MR items and completely void an AP champ but Armor doesnt void adcs.

This is a fallacy.

NemeBro4 votes

{quoted}

OP stated

When did I imply I give a shit about the OP? He's just one more in a long line of butthurt mage players who want to have their champions be the best at everything.

Baron Barian8 votes

Usually whenever I buy MR, I somehow die to AP faster.

ChaddyFantome8 votes

No. You become impossible to 100-0, but not unkillable, not even close.

SB Arneeman6 votes

It's because most AP champs have lower dps than an adc. Champions like Azir Cassiopeia can shred you even when you have MR though.

BigBrotherAniki4 votes

"I swear you buy the tiniest amount of mr and immediately become unkillable to AP?" Tell that to Veigar lul.

Vizulix2 votes

Veigar main here.

With a tiny bit of MR you don't become absolutely unkillable but Ill just have a lot harder a time.

Normally the bullshit isn't that bad but I've seen a Caitlin manage to live through 2 w's, 1 q, and an ultimate with nothing but mercury treads and a maw of malmortius while I was at 1300+ ap.

NocturnalSheild7 votes

Calling 100% BS on that story. She wouldnt of lived through that even with a janna shield AND ult.

Thats like 8000 damage which would of been reduced by like 40% which is still 5k damage over 2x more damage then caitlyn has health.

Doozku4 votes

You say that but if any champion buys a item 3047 then they become immune to every auto-attacker that isn't an ADC.

otakoteep4 votes

Veigar MR? what is this thing you speak of?

wildfox993 votes

you said it,because an AD-crit deals as much damage as an AP does with an ability (if not more) but without CD,without mana cost and without any posibility to miss it

this is "balanced" by items like item 3020 and the low MR on the board that allows AP to deal true damage,but since their damage is balanced around negating enemy MR (0 mr) as soon as you get some they become useless for how MR/AR works :

let's call "R" the value of MR or armor

%reduction = (R / (100+R)) * 100

so when you have 0 MR and you get 25 MR you gain 20% damage reduction,when you have 150 MR and you get 25 MR you gain 3~4% damage reduction

LordGeovanni3 votes

In one combo yea but you still lose 80% of your hp maybe 60% as a full tank. Mages jobs are not to one shot anyone burst mages are supposed to chunk Relitavely large amounts of hp if it was balanced 55 % of an adc with no defenses and 30% of an adc with average defense item 3139 (and at least 300 more hp than usual at any point in the game)

Glory973 votes

One of the most standard mage starts is: item 3020 + item 3916 to get flat magic pen. The flat magic penetration shred the standard 30 mr down to 0. Meaning mages do 100% damage. And when the enemy reacts and buys 30 mr, the mage shred 60 mr down to 30. 30/130 = ~20%. So the first 30 mr bought reduce the damage of mages by 20%. That is A LOT. It's deciding wether or not you get oneshot or not. There is no investment more efficient than the 500-600 gold you spend on 30 mr.

PowerOfHate 3 votes

Hey stop crying buddy and listen what I'm about to say to you. First AP champions have better burst and scallings and average base damage (not all though) AD caster champions aka Zed Talon Khazix which are depending on their abilities to do damage. The AD casters HAVE LOW BASE DAMAGE ALL OF THEM! as an AP champ you have average or good base damage 1 for the aps. AP champions can get tabi Armguard which is 70 armor(when armguard stacks gives 15 more armor so 85) vs AD champs can get Mercs and hexdrinker which is 60 MR. But Since the AP champs have good base damage they can rush the defensive items and still do damage but AD casters have to rush offensive stats items which is negated in every stage of the game. If both rush defensive AP wins again cuz of the higher base stats...

Stop complaining if you cant utilize the current dumb meta...

Shablagoo3 votes

Can you show me proof of this because I die th malz,ahri, cass, and brand pretty dam fast so I am no seeing this as being true. Mind you I am not saying that adcs dont do so much dmg, but it feels like resistence doesnt work on either.

Sire Hippington2 votes

As someone on the reciveing end of the magic damage, i really have a different eperience, though i guess it depends on hte champ. Vs lux, a hextrinker can do wonders, vs thalia it just delays ypur death by ~2sec till her next Q comes out. There is a reason why the dps-APs are meta in high elos rather than actually CD gated burstmages. Even Syndra and Ori have pretty low CDs.

And for adc, their damage is just WAY overtuned once they get some items.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

That’s probably because base mr is 30. The lowest mr item in the game has 25 mr, that’s already almost double mr.

And since every mage builds pen items, that little bit of mr turns into alot.

The Great Duck2 votes

At least you don't have to deal with these item 3076 item 3075

Pika Fox2 votes

Except this is not true at all. Either youre not CSing well at all and not building your lead, or theyre gaining levels and youve yet to buy so you cant finish off the last bit of their HP. The mercs arent preventing you from killing them ever, youre just not playing well (or pressing your supposed advantage well enough)

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