Boards›Gameplay

Lucian's combo needs to be destroyed. Not allowed. At all.

WoonStruck··57 votes·5,925 views

The fact that Lucian can

AA->E->LS->Q->LS->E->LS->W->LS->E->LS->Q->LS->E->LS

In less than 4 seconds if done right is absurd. Its not even hard if you just wait for audio queues and have any sense of rhythm. Keep in mind that, due to canceling, this can be brought down to ~2-3 seconds.

Most assassins can't put out 640 + (1220% total AD) + (200% bonus AD) + (90% AP) in 4 seconds without even using their ult. Keep in mind pretty much none of this can miss because it doesn't include his ult.

Lucian is flat-out busted. Especially since it doesn't even have to be late game for him to do this. All it takes is 2 items and T2 boots. 7200 gold. Level 9 or 13 depending on how early game went.

Keep in mind that Lucian is an early game ADC that scales into the best ADC/caster/assassin in the game.

Give lightslinger an internal CD like Sheen. However, the CD must be at least 3 seconds. Not 1.5. Keep in mind Lucian's passive has a 1.6 total AD ratio, not 200% base AD like TF (the best sheen proc). Either that or his E needs to not reset. And needs to cost mana. A lot more mana so he's at least forced to go Essense Reaver.

Hell, maybe even both.

Obscene Burst** and** DPS is not an okay combination. Especially on a mobile ranged champion. If he were a sitting duck, I'd at least start to understand the logic.

Lucian is point-and-click Q Ryze all over again but with mobility, objective control, and a good early game instead of tankiness and single target CC.

131 Comments

Vlädïmïr12 votes

literally the only people that would disagree with this thread are people that want to continue abusing him in his broken state

SithesisLord2 votes

Gotta maintain the freelo train going at full steam.

Chaotic Reks5 votes

Ranged AD Casters in general are just a terrible idea. They still get the advantage of strong burst or utility from spells, while also having the advantage of being AD.

Tis a nice day5 votes

Sivir MissFortune Corki Urgot

bill843 votes

Yes lets all make the argument that urgot is OP.

Chaotic Reks2 votes

let's not forget the terror's of toplane Jayce Gnar Quinn

xxxMadLionxxx4 votes

This makes no sense because all of Lucian ability delay his AAs. A regular attack speed steroid like MF W does more damage mid to late game.

LatetotheRace4 votes

Yes and no, his dash and q reset his auto attack timer.

read a damn book1 votes

All of his abilities do sadly

Mr Fidori4 votes

Actually, only his E resets his AA timer.

Paroe4 votes

you... you all realize that lucian is an AD CASTER, right? He sacrifices so much sustained damage for burst if he actually builds like an AD caster.

WoonStruck2 votes

Except he builds crit after that first 7200 gold unless the enemy team has so much armor that crit would fail anyway, not matter which ADC.

LaserDeathBlade4 votes

Lucian's 'combo' already deletes tanks for all of early-mid game, so I don't think he's sacrificing much in terms of sustained damage.

Not to mention his combo has like no cooldown anyway.

He's more of a sustained burst champ. Very balanced.

Caítlyn3 votes

This gives me an idea. How about a cd on his passive? Even 2 seconds would be fine.

WoonStruck17 votes

Considering its a Sheen proc on steroids, probably 3 seconds at the least.

If his E resets were removed and they actually cost mana, 1.5 or 2 would probably suffice.

If you actually read the OP, you'd notice I suggested an internal CD on his passive.

ARequestOfDeath3 votes

i remember when he had to get a kill with his ulti for his e to reset

Have at ye3 votes

Pepperidge Farms, is that you? Kappa

ARequestOfDeath2 votes

pepperidge farm remembers everything.

TheOvermind3 votes

Most assassins can't put out 640 + (1220% total AD) + (200% bonus AD) + (90% AP) in 4 seconds Full build Rengar will outdamage any ad carry with auto attacks after he activates ghost blade and uses empowered q . He actually Tares baron to shreds too and in seconds

WoonStruck1 votes

Assassins are not a good argument because they, themselves, are not healthy.

In addition, Rengar doesn't output as much as Lucian still. He can burst a squishy, but he can't do as much damage. He's useless against tanks; Lucian isn't.

KING 5HARK1 votes

Assassins are not a good argument because they, themselves, are not healthy.

That made me sad because you seemed to put a lot of thought into the rest of this post/your answers here

WoonStruck2 votes

Assassins, as they are in LoL, are not healthy. In no game is a champion based around 100-0ing another character by concept healthy.

Assassins in LoL do not have to outplay. They just have to get in range.

Its been stated with several non-assassin champions, and even just specific abilities, that if the only counterplay is 'stay out of range', that's not healthy.

Why does that apply to a single ability, but not an entire kit in your opinion? What makes it healthier when 3 other abilities go along with it for a kill, rather than just (usually short-ranged) harass?

KING 5HARK1 votes

Assassins in LoL do not have to outplay. They just have to get in range.

Unless they are fed, they have to hit all their stuff and try not to take damage in return since they are squishy themself. If they are fed you fucked up beforehand....

Its been stated with several non-assassin champions, and even just specific abilities, that if the only counterplay is 'stay out of range', that's not healthy.

Its not the only counterplay, every assassin still loses to Exhaust and barrier(and champ specific stuff)

Why does that apply to a single ability, but not an entire kit in your opinion? What makes it healthier when 3 other abilities go along with it for a kill, rather than just (usually short-ranged) harass?

What? When did I say anything remotely related to this?

In no game is a champion based around 100-0ing another character by concept healthy.

Why not? No assassin is doing that in an instant(unless fed), there is always time to react. If there were no assassins ADCs would dominate the game, but thats obviously just what you adc mains want, right?)

WoonStruck2 votes

Hitting every skill is not hard. Akali: point-and-click. Talon: Point and click. Zed: Point-and-click. Katarina: Point-and-click.

Fizz: You can bait the E direction, but he'll have Q off CD before you get away. You're not dodging if he lands ult. Good Fizz players don't initiate with ult unless its literally free, avoiding the skillshot aspect.

Are you noticing a pattern here with assassins? Should I include Rengar?

Should I include the ones with 'skillshots' that are difficult to land, except they all have a gapcloser that invalidates the 'skillshot' aspect?

If you think assassins have decent counterplay, you need to re-innovate your thought-process.

Also, not an ADC main. The game was fine when assassins were shit in season 1/2.

The problem is that ADCs need nerfs, not that they, by concept, will dominate the game without assassins.

Control mages used to be their bane. Mages in general, actually. We all know Riot has that fucked up right now.

Riot's poor balance isn't an excuse to 'necessitate' the existence of assassins. If an unhealthy aspect of the game is 'required' to keep something in check, the entire balance regime needs to be refurbished.

DeathBurst1 votes

{quoted}

Should I include the ones with 'skillshots' that are difficult to land, except they all have a gapcloser that invalidates the 'skillshot' aspect?

Hum, you already did that... Zed's shurikens are not point and click. Talon's ones neither.

WoonStruck2 votes

There are some whose skillshots actually take effort to land. Diana, because she has to land prior to going in. Ekko when built AP. AP elise (when that was actually viable). Fiora. J4. Kha. Lee Sin. Nidalee.

These are the assassins (or champions built as such) that actually require a little finesse to be successful.

Saying Zed and Talon have skillshots in their 'assassination' is invalid because they get into melee for free, given their gapclosers, and invalidate any 'skill' in that shot.

Point-and-click initiation is one of the aspects that makes specific assassins unhealthy.

You saying Zed/talon and healthy because of their 'skillshots' is like claiming Irelia is perfect because her ult is a skillshot.

DeathBurst1 votes

You lost me... In your previous post, you seemed to imply that no Assassin was healthy because even those with skill shots had gap closers to make the skill shot easy. And in this post, you make a list of Assassins that are somewhat healthy.

And I never said Zed and Talon are healthy (or un-healthy), I just said Zed and Talon fit the description "has skillshot but it's not hard to land because they have a gap closer" and do NOT fit the description "point-and-click".

WoonStruck2 votes

Some assassins have a lot more depth to how unhealthy they actually are.

Ones that actually have to land a skillshot prior to engaging are, without a doubt, more healthy than point-and-click initiation assassins.

That doesn't mean assassins are healthy. It means those assassins are not as unhealthy as some others, yet are still not healthy.

Feast/famine gameplay is not healthy. Assassins exemplify 'feast/famine'. As a concept, they are not healthy. Especially if they don't display feast/famine scenarios, because that means they consistently murder people, which ends up meaning they are better than most other choices.

KING 5HARK1 votes

Yea, I dont agree with any of your points but I cant change your mind since you apparently think assassins are unhealthy when there is probably more counterplay to them than to most other roles. So I'm gonna leave it at the point that our opinions differ...

WoonStruck2 votes

"our opinions differ..."

And yet you're stating that assassins are healthier than other roles.

I'm pretty sure your opinion differs from anybody that isn't an assassin main.

TheOvermind1 votes

You are so very wrong. Rengar is perhaps the best late game scaling champion in the game . And trust me he outdamages Lucian by a lot . Even vs tanks . Yes rengar has burst vs squishes. But he also has insane dps to shred anyone with ghost blade and ferocity q. I never said he is healthy. Lucian is broken yes . But let's get something stargiht . He doesn't outdamage rengar at all and its not even close .

WoonStruck2 votes

He does outdamage rengar. Rengar's damage is more frontloaded, but after that first second, Lucian starts to catch up and surpasses rengar within the 2-3 second period.

Look at Rengar's ratios, compound the bases, ratios, and resets. Lucian edges him out.

Let's not forget that Rengar also can't apply his damage without his ult against anyone halfway competent.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Make item 3071 melee only? Or would that be too harsh?

Feel like a lot of Korean players really like slapping BC on ADC as of late.. (and youmuus)

CoolKnightST1 votes

His burst is indeed a problem. I think the real question is what we will do with his passive. Since the last patch some items no longer see his passive as an auto attack but their are still plently of items & champion interactions that do this like Braum's passive, item 3071, item 3504, Nami's E, Thunderlord's, etc...

The real problem is that a drastic change like this will change his playstye by a hugh marge. Going back to the item 3508 state was actually a very ballanced version for him. But the new item 3142 item 3071 actually feels more fun when adding thunderlords to the mix.

Stil I think we need todo something about that item 3091 also works with his passive (or did they patch this already?). Well long story short where on the breaking point to see how the future lucian will be like.

WoonStruck11 votes

He needs a drastic change in playstyle.

Trinity Lucian back in the day was gated behind a 1.5 second internal CD and was still broken.

He needs a 3 second CD on his passive. His kit is not broken if his kit is forced to be spaced apart, and this makes his ult not over-loaded either because he'll actually need it to finish people off. Not just instantly burst anyone in range and ult if he's out of range of somebody.

IMO, it shouldn't act as an auto-attack. It should just be an on-attack effect with a 60% AD ratio. Because that's what it actually is.

Ultîma5 votes

That would completely break Lucian.

Every ADC is designed to deal a maximum amount of damage within the shortest amount of time. Lucian doesn't have the range or utility to justify his only advantage (dealing damage) being gutted like that. If there were to be a cd on his passive then he'd have to gain something back elsewhere.

Not to mention, isn't it a bit late to ask nerfs to Lucian at this point? Black cleaver MF is already taking the spot as the best ADC at higher elos across all regions.

WoonStruck5 votes

No, ADCs are about dealing high sustained damage.

Not having sustained burst.

That's where the ADC rework went wrong. They didn't need more crit. They needed more variability.

The high-end crit now is what made tanks (actually assassins/fighters building tank) take over because they're the only ones that can handle that damage in teamfights.

Since tanks (actually assassins/fighters building tank) are primarily being played now, crit build doesn't work as effectively, so the 'Korean build' popped up.

The Korean build deserves to be nerfed, and Lucian deserves to be nerfed along with it. Maybe they can fix ADCs and their itemization while they're at it so melee building some real damage might actually work sometimes and ADCs without mobility can function without being broken.

dunkeroni4 votes

Have you considered that mid-late game jinx can right click and wait with machine gun, doing 2000% AD (+ on hit effects) in 4 seconds with just basic attacks? Doesn't that mean that Lucian is both weaker and mechanically more difficult? He doesn't even come with a slow or snares to compensate.

WoonStruck7 votes

Jinx also takes 20 minutes longer than Lucian to get rolling and actually needs significant gold to do anything with that 2000% AD.

You're also neglecting the impact of mobility, and the fact that Lucian's combo can be cut down to around 2 seconds if you're decent. Its like Ryze's combos; most people can't do it very well so I didn't put the best-case-scenario, which you're doing for Jinx. If you want to compare maximum potential, you'd be astounded by what Lucian can do.

Lucian's combo isn't his maximum potential. Its his standard.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

How about make his W deal no damage?

Joseraph10 votes

implying Luc's W does damage past 5 mins in

LSmaster162 votes

Well, if you're playing ap Lucian...

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

I smell black magics.

Wînter Fox5 votes

Wait...he has a W?

jawd551 votes

I might be wrobg but I don't think that combo is possible as quick as you are saying it is? Max rank and 40% cdr E is a 9.8 second cooldown. You're proposing that he use E, proc his passive for the cooldown, use another skill, proc his passive again, rinse, wash, repeat. However this, assuming its done on a champion leaves a full 1.8 second cooldown on his E. If you use the resets peferfectly then you have to wait around 1.4 seconds for E to come of cooldown. So if you do the combo the way youre suggesting perfectly it takes at least 5.6 seconds. Probably closer a full 6 and some change. Maybe Im missing something though.

Also im not saying that luc isnt ridiculous. Cause he is. He absolutely is.

WoonStruck2 votes

14*.6 is 8.4, not 9.6. E->LS->Q->LS = E is back up, and you can repeat with W this time. Same deal after, except with that 40% CDR, Q is now off CD along with E. Which means another E at the end.

DeathBurst1 votes

AA->E->LS->Q->LS->E->LS->W->LS->E->LS->Q->LS->E->LS

I didn't believe that this combo was actually possible, so I started to post a comment, and then I checked the numbers on the wikia, and apparently it checks out. I must admit I'm a little surprised.

That being said, the full execution is probably closer to 5s than to 3, even taking into account the reset in E, if only due to the length of the visual animations. And Lucian was nerfed in the previous patch, let's give him a bit of time to see if he still is so dominant.

WoonStruck2 votes

You can cancel the animation of everything except Q.

That's why I stated 4, because most people are bad at executing it efficiently, similar to Ryze. However, the better the player is at it, the shorter it gets, down to about 2-2.5 seconds.

Billy VoHagen1 votes

Can you post a video of you performing that combo if it's so easy?

WoonStruck2 votes

Doing it in the minimum time is hard, similar to Ryze.

However, 4 seconds is plenty of lee-way that anyone can accomplish.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by WoonStruck

Riot's Round Table sessions are full of lies.
Memes & Games107 comments
316
votes
Don't get me wrong, new champions are nice...but when are you going to focus on balance?
Gameplay164 comments
207
votes
Riot, you can't use your excuse for reworking Maokai when Lee Sin exists.
Gameplay173 comments
201
votes
Meddler, you said Assassin items would be made melee only if ranged started using them too much.
Gameplay89 comments
157
votes
Increasing Vlad's healing will not fix his issues.
Gameplay148 comments
157
votes
Remember when Riot said they'd remove Dynamic (Flex) if queue times were too high?
Gameplay123 comments
154
votes