So old Malz was uninteractive because he could wave clear after he got some mana

Nomad Sol·May 22, 2017·38 votes·2,258 views

's entire playstyle is to walk into lane and throw out non stop Qs to clear the wave from level 1. He can clear the first 3 waves without even using 1/10th of his mana. , in every single bad match up, just throws Q after Q after Q to clear the wave and because of her mobility, can never be caught.

Where the reworks at. And this isn't even all of them but probably some of the most blatant examples of uninteractive mid lane gameplay along with

102 Comments

deadlychuckMay 22, 201737 votes

Riot's got a completely double standard on this shit. I've given up trying to understand their logic, because the decision wasn't one based on logic, it was based on bias.

Riot wasn't happy because malzahar's targeted R, and ability to punish hyper mobile champions threatened their attempts to shove even more needless mobility into the game. He was one of the few champions which actually had the ability to force high tempo champions to play at lower tempo, where as just about every other low tempo champion is forced to play at a higher tempo when against high tempo champions.

inplaneMay 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Riot's got a completely double standard on this shit. I've given up trying to understand their logic, because the decision wasn't one based on logic, it was based on bias.

Riot wasn't happy because malzahar's targeted R, and ability to punish hyper mobile champions threatened their attempts to shove even more needless mobility into the game. He was one of the few champions which actually had the ability to force high tempo champions to play at lower tempo, where as just about every other low tempo champion is forced to play at a higher tempo when against high tempo champions.

I guess that's the same reason why Taliyah 's minefield is rendered useless by nerfs and Taric 's and Sion 's reliable stuns were removed.

deadlychuckMay 22, 20172 votes

I'm not saying that's why, but

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/frRcD7rlvUA/hqdefault.jpg

ArakadiaMay 23, 20174 votes

Well Malzahar ult also massively punished immobile champions and was pretty unfair, so it wasn't just because flashy blinks are cool to Riot.

deadlychuckMay 23, 20177 votes

Except that it really didn't... His lack of mobility meant that if you were immobile, then he either had to flash onto you (which flash ult is a still a combo for most every mage) or he'd have to walk up to you and you'd have to fail to respond to him. Then everything changes when you get into a team fight, because he can't just walk past the front line, and even if his ult is pretty obvious and easy for at least 1 player on most teams to interrupt.

The champions which struggled significantly more against malzahar were the champions which had a ton of mobility, making it easy to accidentally mess up your positioning, and champion which are played in a braindead aggressive manner. Oh, you're ahead? Great, you still can't dive me if i'm playing safe.

ArakadiaMay 23, 20171 votes

You just said that his ult wasn't horribly unfair because he himself was immobile than just listed his weaknesses. The counterplay to his ult shouldn't be "don't let him walk in range". He didn't even have to do his full combo. If he tossed one important spell than his ult during a gank his jungled had their way with you. It wasn't even like Annie ult where the CC is conditional and telegraphed but unfair. In team fights his ult maybe was more fair, still not so much for how hard it could counter other champions without much skill or any timing involved, as your team mates could save you, but outside of team fights his ult totally lacked counterplay.

deadlychuckMay 23, 20172 votes

Ok, and exactly what is the 1v1 counterplay for a champion like fizz, kha, talon?

What's the counterplay for ranged champions against yasuo pressing W or using E to dodge spells?

Just because some champions don't have micro counterplay to a champion doesn't mean they don't have macro counterplay. The only real difference becomes a matter of perception. When you play lower tempo champions you are more appreciative of the macro game, knowing that there is micro involved, but sometimes inferior macro game is more important. Where as the higher tempo players tend to be so focused on the micro game, they forget that there exists a macro game which they can take advantage of beyond their micro play.

Yes, you're playing against a malzahar in the mid lane, with a champion who probably can't 1v1 him. So you can coordinate with your jungle to camp him (which is pretty easy because if he's behind, then he can't easily farm safely and naturally pushes), or you can break even in the lane and then catch up in the mid game, where he is unable to carry without having a very very significant lead.

ArakadiaMay 24, 20171 votes

Ok, and exactly what is the 1v1 counterplay for a champion like fizz, kha, talon?

What's the counterplay for ranged champions against yasuo pressing W or using E to dodge spells?

Sorry, but one unfun/unfair champion to fight doesn't make another unfun/unfair champion's design okay. His ult really was terribly designed.

So you can coordinate with your jungle to camp him (which is pretty easy

Not in solo Q. Unless you've qued with your jungler, getting him to camp your lane IS NOT EASY.

you can break even in the lane and then catch up in the mid game, where he is unable to carry without having a very very significant lead.

You mean I can play super passive, get zoned constantly by his E, ult, and to an extent Q, and than late game have him not fall off? Just because can't carry unless fed doesn't mean he falls off. Your basically saying to play like I would against Darius, except Malzahar is ranged with targeted long duration CC. This isn't okay.

Your argueing that Malzahar was balanced. And sure he was. But he was not well designed, he was not fair, and we was not fun to fight.

ParoeMay 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, but one unfun/unfair champion to fight doesn't make another unfun/unfair champion's design okay. His ult really was terribly designed.

Not in solo Q. Unless you've qued with your jungler, getting him to camp your lane IS NOT EASY.

You mean I can play super passive, get zoned constantly by his E, ult, and to an extent Q, and than late game have him not fall off? Just because can't carry unless fed doesn't mean he falls off. Your basically saying to play like I would against Darius, except Malzahar is ranged with targeted long duration CC. This isn't okay.

Your argueing that Malzahar was balanced. And sure he was. But he was not well designed, he was not fair, and we was not fun to fight.

Malzahar was an asassin who was specialized at assassinating 1v1 all-ins. You realize if malzahar had mobilty of some kind on his W he would have been balanced as "a true assassin"? You also realize that malzahar will usually be pushed up, and pre-rework he would be pushed far enough up that the jungle would EASILY gank? Also, why are you trying to all in a malzahar without help? Do you try to 1v1 the fiora? or the yasuo? Or the trundle? Or the volibear? the leblanc?

Your entire argument SCREAMS "I dont actually understand what malzahar was and dont like him because hes very good at punishing all-ins" despite the fact that his entire niche was "immobile assassin".

ArakadiaMay 24, 20171 votes

How can you say Malzahar was an assassin??? I don't even know what you mean by his except that he has high single target damage and pick potential.

I don't try to 1v1 the Malzahar. You pulled that random insult out of nowhere. I never said that.

Your whole last paragraph was just saying I don't know what I'm talking about and was more insult than logic.

I don't give a fuck if Malzahar was anti-assassin. That's a cool niche I guess. But he was terribly designed and super unfun to fight. He promoted boring gameplay. Stop saying "well he just countered all ins and was good at 1v1." He was aids to fight, even if he was niche.

You keep argueing about Malzahar being balanced. I know he was. But he felt shitty to fight.

deadlychuckMay 24, 20171 votes

Ok, malzahar felt shitty to fight. So do the champions i listed, and so does darius which you compared him to. So do a lot of champions. Though riot only addressing malzahar, when other champions are in an equally shitty state to play against, is just a sign of bias removal, not them attempting to fix the problem.

How can you say Malzahar was an assassin???

I mean, it wasn't his idea, it was riot's... when replying click on the champion icons, type in "assassin". Malzahar has always been a mage/assassin according to riot themselves.

Oh and to address a point from your response to me

You mean I can play super passive, get zoned constantly by his E, ult, and to an extent Q, and than late game have him not fall off?

Yes, that's exactly what i'm saying... you can do... **if you're someone who malzahar counters. ** If you were instead a mage, then more than likely you could out range malzahar's kit (bar his Q which isn't a massive threat by itself) and play against him aggressively. Malzahar was a champion which changed the game. He made traditionally aggressive champions play passive and allowed traditionally passive champions play aggressively.

ProeliumMay 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Riot's got a completely double standard on this shit. I've given up trying to understand their logic, because the decision wasn't one based on logic, it was based on bias.

Riot wasn't happy because malzahar's targeted R, and ability to punish hyper mobile champions threatened their attempts to shove even more needless mobility into the game. He was one of the few champions which actually had the ability to force high tempo champions to play at lower tempo, where as just about every other low tempo champion is forced to play at a higher tempo when against high tempo champions.

Logged in to upvote this and comment.

As a former League player who LOVED old Malz because he gave me a way to slow down the hyper fast/hyper mobile enemies... I was so disappointed at what they did to him.

Following the forums a bit still after leaving the game (was a beta player, quit about 6 months ago) has really reinforced my reasons for not playing anymore.

RalanrMay 22, 201717 votes

You couldn't actually dodge Malz space aids you know.

Darkdemon653May 22, 201716 votes

While I greatly dislike the new Malz, his issue was his E cleared the wave while simultaneously zoning his opponent - no one could risk the E jumping to them.

Auz the RipperMay 23, 20173 votes

Eating the E on its first bounce was actually the way you countered malz in lane levels 1-3: the mana cost was very high and he needs it to bounce as many times as possible so he can regain the mana spent so early, the damage from his E would take maybe a 1/8 of your HP and he'd lose a 1/4 of his mana. it was most effective with champions who had defensive steroids like lux or annie

Sire HippingtonMay 22, 20174 votes

Thats like so often just an excuse. The point of most mages is haveing good waveclear and thus beeing rather uninteractive, that's the main reason you put them mid since they can keep the tower safe with relative little risk.

SlythionMay 22, 20174 votes

I mean, AurelionSol was intentionally designed to just push the wave and roam

SweedishGunnerMay 23, 20173 votes

His and Taliyah's playstyle feels really bad to play against. They're like TF but less interactive IMO.

SpecterVonBarenMay 23, 20172 votes

At least Malzahar's E took time to kill the whole wave though, and he was super slow and immobile and you didn't have to instantly send danger pings to top and bot the second he was out of your vision.

General Esdeath May 22, 20174 votes

Don't forget: Maokai is a bit too oppressive as a support so we're toning him down, we also don't like his winrate being that high

Ahri 55% win, oppressive in lane with a Q that minions can't block, free mobility on 2 charges of her ult, and CC

Prophet of UrgodMay 23, 20172 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMysticMay 23, 20172 votes

Sustain that requires a minimum of 200 Mana to fuel.

NineTailedMysticMay 23, 20172 votes

They're already looking at Ahri nerfs, jfc. And people really need to stop saying "free". Do you really think one dash on an ultimates CD is good?

General Esdeath May 23, 20171 votes

My dude those 2 dashes are literally free, after her 100 mana for the first dash the next 2 are no cost. And when it does damage and that much mobility? Yeah, I think it should be on a high CD.

NineTailedMysticMay 23, 20171 votes

They still cost her something in power budget. Her R is a 110/95/80 CD, do you think one dash is worth that CD? No, her ultimate would be garbage. She has a window of very high mobility, and I can agree with you that it may be a bit too short due to the overabundance of CDR in itemization.

General Esdeath May 23, 20171 votes

Three dashes certainly is, especially when you can engage, disengage, and then reengage based on your Q/W/E cooldowns all with 100 mana.

NineTailedMysticMay 23, 20171 votes

Yea, three dashes are fine on an Ultimate's CD. Not one.

General Esdeath May 23, 20171 votes

3 dashes that also inflict damage and can apply effects like item 3116 and thunderlords which she can also use to position herself for her skillshots

NineTailedMysticMay 23, 20171 votes

And? Now you're just telling me what they do, which I already know.

Guess what? They're gutting 15% AP ratio off her R anyways, happy?

SarchiaponMay 22, 20173 votes

Malza's voidlings are being for all intents and purposes reverted to be farm bots and almost useless as a fighting tool. Which is mainly the death of Malza support but otherwise not bad at all because we were rapidly reaching a point where the "rework" was being nerfed more than the old version and frankly that was not even funny anymore...

I'm mystified as why RioT felt the need to nerf the farming capabilities of an otherwise immobile champ, while other champs that are a thousand miles more mobile got way more easy and straightforward farming tools. But whatever. Not everything always makes sense in league...

deadlychuckMay 22, 20175 votes

The only difference is that they've got to gut AD malzahar on the way out.

Also, his voidlings didn't use to be **just **farm bots they acted as spell blockers and even as AP, functioned as tower killing power. Except where it use to take a decent amount of skill to use them as such, instead riot just removed the tower killing and put the spell blocking on an automatic passive.

SarchiaponMay 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The only difference is that they've got to gut AD malzahar on the way out.

Also, his voidlings didn't use to be **just **farm bots they acted as spell blockers and even as AP, functioned as tower killing power. Except where it use to take a decent amount of skill to use them as such, instead riot just removed the tower killing and put the spell blocking on an automatic passive.

It's not over yet, because the idea, if i got things straight, is that now you can have all the voidlings out when you want instead than have to cast spells at the right time. Good for farming and jungle (bye bye the stupid -50% damage on normal monsters), not so much for support.

deadlychuckMay 22, 20172 votes

No it's dead, because they decided that not only did they need to lower the already pretty low health of the voidlings, that they'd also need to reduce their magic resist (going from 50 at all levels to 8 + 1/lvl), meaning they're going to die more quickly to passive aoe damage.

On top of that, they've reduced their MS by 51 and the duration has been cut in less than half going from 21seconds pre-rework to 8/8/9/9/10.

Though i haven't seen how many stacks it needs per charge, depending on how they do things, they might have less up time than pre-rework. Which is a massive nerf. AD malz pre-rework could at least keep 1 voidling up constantly, provided he had mana, and didn't let it die. If this ability works as it seems, then this is no longer the case.

Effectively, where AD malz use to have ramp up damage, this reworked version only has burst damage, which will always be out preformed (via the exact same play pattern) by AP.

Fondling GemsMay 23, 20173 votes

TBF Malz had to walk up for a moment and could then walk back from the minions. Ahri and Ekko both have to actually stay up with them, and their poke isn't guaranteed to hit you if you stay near the wave. Their main damage source abilities also aren't point and click.

deadlychuckMay 23, 20172 votes

Except that both also have some form of mobility or movement impairing CC which allows them to escape.

Fondling GemsMay 23, 20172 votes

And malz didn't still have his damage source on a single target CC ability, a way to deal lot of damage in an AOE, and an AOE silence? Pretending like Malz didn't have ways to save himself is a bit of an exaggeration, especially since outside of Q he didn't have any real cast animation which meant that he could deal continuous damage throughout a gank.

It mostly still falls into Malz having his main damage be on a point and click ability, while having his other 2 large damage sources (W and R) also effectively being point and click since you couldn't miss W if you ulted.

It is why both him and Swain had most of their damage taken out of their E's. It was oppressive because there was no counterplay except stand away from them, and if you did they he could clear the wave exceptionally easily and get mana refunded for doing so.

FefnilMay 23, 20173 votes

That's false. In lane Malz couldn't just E and go away, unless he had the voidling up, but that's his passive so it was still part of his budget and was also killable. In all the other cases he was forced to AA minions, because E was never enough to kill them by itself, it could only kill casters at lv 4 with at least a full item. And Malz has one of the worst AA in the game. He needed to attack the minions to get gold like anyone else because E was and is unreliable for last hitting, he was actually at a disadvantage because harass would hurt him twice as much, if E stopped then he pretty much lost the entire wave if the enemy knew what he was doing and immediately cleared the wave, so Malz had to use half of his mana bar with Q and W. Using E and going away was only possibile in some situations where minions random targeting was favorable, and in that case it was a gamble because it could have missed some last hits. His lane phase was, and is still, the opposite of passive.

Fondling GemsMay 23, 20171 votes

Yes but Malz could very easily Q the melee minions and then E. Compared to stuff like Ahri and Ekko he didn't actually clear any harder than them and the fact that his main damage source was a point and click stills stands. Especially since it refunded mana for killing minions.

Edit: Malz could also drop his pool down on the minion waves if his E wasn't strong enough yet too.

FefnilMay 23, 20174 votes

Yes but you can't Q all the minions, and I can assure you that before first back Q and E alone were still not enough for melee minions. Same with W. And using all spells to clear was pretty much suicide, more than half your mana bar would go away. The problem is not whose clear is harder, but it's that Ahri and Ekko use their aoe and minions get damaged, that's it. Malz's damage, instead, is not only dot, but is also one minion at any given time. It may be low cost and safe, but it's also painfully slow, and requires a delicate balance that is easily broken. A single melee minion deciding to go around and target the last one of your casters and by doing so getting too far away from the other minions to pass E. Things like this happened quite often, and no other mage with simple aoes has this kind of problems. Malzahar farmstyle was balanced in this regard, and required more micro managing than most classic mages. Also, the fact that his main damaging spell was also his main farming tool was actually a disadvantage, because fighting champions could mean losing an entire wave. But, on the other hand, his E being his main damage spell is also not true: his Q actually dealt pretty much the same damage at any level with the same scaling, and W could potentially be even stronger, and they were aoe. The problem was that Malzahar was forced to max E first, since he couldn't farm with the other spells.

Fondling GemsMay 23, 20171 votes

And every other champion's farming spell isn't their main damage tool? Except they have to actually hit theirs?

FefnilMay 23, 20171 votes

Sure, but in most cases if it's an aoe spell and you're trading in lane then most likely you have done collateral damage to minions. If it's a single target, then it's not your farming spell, or you have other spells to farm. Also, if it's their main damage, then most likely has a low cd. On the other hand early game Malz's E cd is pretty high, and if you use it to trade, then you lose minions. The difference between a skillshot and a point-and-click is reliability, and that's where skill comes in. Malz's E is a point-and-click, but is not reliable like others. Its unreliability comes in its management, being a relatively low damage dot that needs to be on while minions die. If the spell was simply a single target dot without the pass-on-death mechanic and was only a battle spell, like old Tristana's E then yes, I would obviously agree with you. But as it is, the skill in its use comes in its management. You could still argue that it could simply become a skillshot that puts the dot on the first enemy hit, or in an area. But the point is that Malzahar was born as anti-diver, as a counter to the mobility to come in and dodge your spells. Removing this kind of reliability would simply destroy its purpose.

Fondling GemsMay 24, 20171 votes

Yes but malz's E also provided constant pressure. You couldn't trade if that trade would take you near to a minion with it,

I am just tired of people pretending like malz didn't get heavy changes because he was an uninteractive champion with an unhealthy play style. Sure the changes were off the mark, but that is why Riot is still constantly putting work and effort into him.

FefnilMay 24, 20171 votes

But it wasn't really all that different from an Orianna, where you have to constantly keep tracking of the ball every 4/5 seconds. Or like any other controller. An Ed minion is just a zoning tool like anything else, it may seem unfair, but it's also the only zoning tool where the user has little influence in it, being dependent on minion's ai. Actually, I am not one of those who wants the revert. I kind of like the thought process they used when they reworked him, even though it was a fail. With all the problems of too much power in W, new Malz actually feels smoother than the old one, considering new build paths that lets you access more easily to cd and, most importantly, way less mana cost in the kit, even if the spells are weaker. Before the rework, Malz spells were powerful, but with high cost and high cd. Using them meant becoming vulnerable for a while. Now, he has more the feel of the battle mage he is supposed to be: less powerful, but more spells overall. Still, fact remains that his farm pattern is still not that uninteractive like people want to believe.

BisaknospMay 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dora Bora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HnAzAxEs,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-22T14:11:44.717+0000)

, in every single bad match up, just throws Q after Q after Q to clear the wave and because of her mobility, can never be caught.

? so stupid did you ever play ahri try spamming q to farm you'll be oom really fast which means your opponent can zone the fck out of you

FeelsCampedManMay 22, 20172 votes

He was also impossible to all in as most champions due to him being one of the best mage duelists in the game with his incredibly high damage + Supression that required you to get a fucking QSS on a midlaner if you ever wanted to pick a fight with him

It's not just the wave clear, it's the fact that you had absolutely no chance of beating this champion 1v1 on even terms

ParoeMay 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

He was also impossible to all in as most champions due to him being one of the best mage duelists in the game with his incredibly high damage + Supression that required you to get a fucking QSS on a midlaner if you ever wanted to pick a fight with him

It's not just the wave clear, it's the fact that you had absolutely no chance of beating this champion 1v1 on even terms

Its almost as if malzahar was a mage assassin! Isnt that funny, an immobile mage who has the damage of an assassin assassinating assassins who try to assassinate him by assassinating them instead?

Its almost as if.... MALZAHAR WAS AN ANTI-ASSASSIN DUE TO HIS IMMOBILITY.

Nomad SolMay 22, 20174 votes

Then you're just bad, Malz lost to most mages who vastly out ranged him

Malz wasn't a duelist, he isn't a duelist now, he's a terrible duelist. He was an anti diver, like he is now. Old and new Malz both have incredibly low staying power, any real duelist wouldn't give a shit about a 2 second stun that puts malz right in front of you.