All of you saying Darius doesn't need a heal

IsIsGankedParis·Sep 23, 2015·53 votes·5,271 views

If he didn't have a form of sustain/tankiness, he would be pre rework Darius all over again, in where he dies too soon to be able to get his damage off and is basically a low CC meat shield.

Now that he is able to survive and get his damage off, everybody hates him and wants his heal gone with the compensation being "higher Q damage!"

Listen for 5 seconds, if you gave Darius 1 million damage but he couldn't survive a teamfight for 2 seconds like pre rework because he had no way to survive outside items and base stats, he might as well have 20 damage as he can't get it off.

Is the heal a little strong? Probably, maybe needs a little toning down again(try 10% on each champion again if it is still strong)

Is his damage strong? Hell no, he deserves his damage if you allow him to get 5 stacks on you and don't peel him off in team fights.

94 Comments

OrangesilkSep 23, 201525 votes

To be fair, if he did a million damage there'd be teamcomps based around letting him actually deal that damage, say Lulu top, Nautilus jungle, Kayle mid and Blitzcrank support.

In fact, that is EXACTLY what they wanted out of the juggernauts rework, they wanted people to build teams around these juggernauts who're supposed to be slow and kiteable on their own, and offset their weaknesses.

Morde is the best example, if the team somehow manages to keep people still for Morde to hit them, it's a winning team.

The Sword SaintSep 23, 201519 votes

I don't care if he heals a lot in teamfights. I care if he's obnoxious to trade against in lane because he heals up after words as I disengage because it's either let him heal off me or stick around for him to get 5 stacks and start hulking out on me.

KONO RUBICK DASep 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HfeFjcgr,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-23T17:59:00.504+0000)

I don't care if he heals a lot in teamfights. I care if he's obnoxious to trade against in lane because he heals up after words as I disengage because it's either let him heal off me or stick around for him to get 5 stacks and start hulking out on me.

do you know that you can go straight on him as a duelist like riven/jax preventing him to put a stack, healing and dealing damage?

The Sword SaintSep 24, 20154 votes

Yes, but seeing as how he hes a pull and two 90% slows for 1 second each the odds favor him getting 5 stacks if I go in to avoid the tip of the blade and then don't make a very hasty retreat. The movespeed he gets from bleed stacks very often allows him to catch me in the tip of a second q on the way out, and on that one I've probably already got 4-5 stacks so there's no going in to deny him the heal that time.

KONO RUBICK DASep 24, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HfeFjcgr,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2015-09-24T13:03:56.943+0000)

Yes, but seeing as how he hes a pull and two 90% slows for 1 second each the odds favor him getting 5 stacks if I go in to avoid the tip of the blade and then don't make a very hasty retreat. The movespeed he gets from bleed stacks very often allows him to catch me in the tip of a second q on the way out, and on that one I've probably already got 4-5 stacks so there's no going in to deny him the heal that time.

he no longer has movespeed from bleed stacks, his slows least 0.6 seconds with mercury, his attack speed makes it so he gives you 1 auto every 1.3 seconds unless he builds attack speed. His Q takes 0.75 seconds so you can dodge it. His ultimate has 0.75 sec delay so you can shield it with Fiora TahmKench Nocturne Sivir Kayle Riven Tryndamere Any duelist like Jax Udyr MasterYi will rek him so hard. Any long duration fighter like Shen DrMundo will get rekt from darius

The Sword SaintSep 24, 20151 votes

I probably just suck, but it's been my experience that any trade that starts with darius puling you in as a melee does not end well for you no matter what you choose to do. If you stick for any amount of time to trade he'll get his 5 stacks and rek you, and if you back off he'll q to heal up and win the trade.

KONO RUBICK DASep 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HfeFjcgr,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-24T13:21:35.292+0000)

I probably just suck, but it's been my experience that any trade that starts with darius puling you in as a melee does not end well for you no matter what you choose to do. If you stick for any amount of time to trade he'll get his 5 stacks and rek you, and if you back off he'll q to heal up and win the trade.

it depends highly on the melee you are playing. If you aren't a melee who can punish him by fighting for a long time you lost. Previously before his rework every melee used to lose. Now if you're Jax and darius pulls you, press E to dodge his potential W, Q if he tries to run to he doesn't give you one stack+50% more damage with Q. He Can't slow your attack speed like before, if you baited his heal he will take 5 seconds to stack 5 stacks including his W reseting his AA. with 5 seconds you can dish out 1000 damage+ with jax and of course with items since you are a carry

slippykittenSep 23, 20158 votes

Except darius was actually fine before the rework. Believe it or not but it is actually ok for a champion to be slightly different and sacrifice sustain for being a lane bully.

IsIsGankedParisSep 23, 201514 votes

No he wasn't, he was an incredibly mediocre pick who had no reason to be picked over other bruisers as they did his job far better.

Oh you wish to bully the enemy early game hard? Renekton Lissandra Gnar are some easy covers.

Oh you wish to be able to ignore the enemy's armor with your E passive and ult? Gangplank Irelia Olaf Trundle are far better than Darius.

Oh you need a front line who can deal damage and be slightly tanky? Chogath Gragas Hecarim Maokai MonkeyKing

Maybe you just picked Darius to dunk the enemy? I'd rather not have Darius when I could have Jarvan IV or Vi or Sion to actually be useful besides just damage.

slippykittenSep 23, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HfeFjcgr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-23T17:52:24.974+0000)

No he wasn't, he was an incredibly mediocre pick who had no reason to be picked over other bruisers as they did his job far better.

Oh you wish to bully the enemy early game hard? are some easy covers.

Oh you wish to be able to ignore the enemy's armor with your E passive and ult? are far better than Darius.

Oh you need a front line who can deal damage and be slightly tanky?

Maybe you just picked Darius to dunk the enemy? I'd rather not have Darius when I could have Jarvan IV or Vi or Sion to actually be useful besides just damage.

Right, he never was an lcs pick, just like trynd and teemo and a bunch of other champs that are fun to play because their mechanics are different. Darius was different, fun, and could still win solo q games if you knew how to play him. Now hes just another bruiser.

Cowgirl EdSep 23, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Right, he never was an lcs pick, just like trynd and teemo and a bunch of other champs that are fun to play because their mechanics are different. Darius was different, fun, and could still win solo q games if you knew how to play him. Now hes just another bruiser.

This

Rinky DinkySep 24, 20152 votes

???

BiffoloSep 24, 20157 votes

Exactly, he was never an lcs pick because he had flaws with his kit so massive people wouldn't even attempt it. So riot went in and attempted to fix said issues.

GorgannanSep 23, 20154 votes

Slightly disagree. He was easily one of the best early bullies. They didn't rework him for him, though. It was a mix of that and for his enemies. He was a free win against melees, and an instant loss against ranged. He was like Annie. Broken with Flash, meh without it. The only reason he got a rework and Annie didn't is she's "classic."

SlytherinUmbreonSep 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HfeFjcgr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-23T17:52:24.974+0000)

Oh you wish to bully the enemy early game hard? are some easy covers.

Honestly, you could just put "half of all ranged champs in the game" over Lissandra. The only real deciding factor is their ability to survive/escape ganks or just generally stay safe.

FlashnFuseSep 24, 20155 votes

They need to gate Darius's heal by having a static cooldown on champions you hit with the axe head, similar to yasuo's dash or nautilus's root. With this change they could also bring up the heal to 15% per champion hit with no cap on champions hit per cast.

I PREACHER ISep 24, 20155 votes

Cancer in lane doesn't deserve to be cancer in team fights imo

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 23, 20154 votes

"Just dodge the axe"

TrueNoxianWrathSep 23, 20155 votes

"Just doge the axe BLADE"

Or you know go into him while he is soft silenced as he is casting it and cant do anything while you kill him and only take 50 percent damage from his blade and after only have to deal with his ridiculously low attack speed and no damage W auto reset.

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 23, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Maho,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HfeFjcgr,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-23T21:29:17.847+0000)

"Just doge the axe BLADE"

Or you know go into him while he is soft silenced as he is casting it and cant do anything while you kill him and only take 50 percent damage from his blade and after only have to deal with his ridiculously low attack speed and no damage W auto reset.

Yeah dodge the axe blade.

Noxian might won't make a difference in his power :P

TrueNoxianWrathSep 24, 20153 votes

Well of course it does if you stand next to him for 6 seconds while he autos you with his mediocre attack speed :P

ayNigerianPrinceSep 23, 20151 votes

That self silence man. I've only played him like once in an aram, but god was it weird not being able to use any abilities or aa's for .75 seconds.

ZorsusSep 23, 20154 votes

People take time to adapt to changes, it is hard to accept the fact that a champion got buffed to usefulness. and so people dont try to work around his heal or try to counter it, MAYBE it is a LITTLE overtuned (10 % would be fine i guess?) But really, without his heal he wouldn't be that good as you said.

FantasySniperSep 23, 20154 votes

That wouldn't be such a big deal if he didn't get tons of free damage. He has 3 abilities to apply passive stacks, two of which apply decent CC, and Crippling Strike is also an AA reset, so one full combo, easily doable under 2 seconds, is 5 stacks. You can't ever hope to kill him fast enough no matter how much CC you throw at him. Dueling him is a stupid idea because one ability rotation is enough to kill even bruisers, but more people gives him more health and he also instantly applies stacks to everyone he touches. How the hell are you supposed to fight him?

TrueNoxianWrathSep 24, 20156 votes

mmm... no.

Only the blade of the delayed telegraphed Q applies a bleed stack. Dodge it. In early levels he doesn't have the cooldown to always use it. And if he does he just auto pushes waves putting him in a bad spot as an immobile champion pushed up to his opponent's tower. It might suck to get pushed under turret but he's in a worse spot.

If you dodge the blade he only has his W to apply an extra bleed stack as an AA reset in between his mediocre attack speed autos. He will take at least 5-6 seconds to apply 5 stack this way. Yes his auto's are that slow, go into a custom game and try it.

3 abilities that apply bleed? His E does not apply a bleed stack.

If you get five stacked in lane I don't know what to tell you.

Duelists (this is only some bruisers mind you) like Fiora Fizz Jax Olaf Pantheon Riven Tryndamere Udyr XinZhao are the best counters to Darius, even in the early game.

His only trading ability is his Q, and many of these champs can punish him hard for even thinking of using it because they can immediately close in on him and just attack him while he is soft silenced during the delayed cast. If they do that they've already won the trade most likely because he needs time to stack his passive and many of these guy's damage is good and constant even early game. Without a dash or escape Darius is dead if they get him low enough and he missuses his Q again.

More people? As in teamfights? Yes... Riot designed him for that... they want him to be a reasonable threat in teamfights since his dueling is gutted. He can get his passive easy in teamfights if he dunk on someone low that mistakenly stayed too in for too long. And if his opponents don't back off a bit so that his passive can wear off he can deal a lot of damage to them if he isn't kitted correctly. This is completely intended.

Just because he is stronger with his passive up he doesn't mean he gain anymore movespeed or dashes he is still simple enough to kite in a teamfight as just throwing a semi heavy slow his way. You don't HAVE to fight him if his passive is up, if you do you will be at a disadvantage that can and should be easily avoided if you play smart.

TransgressorSep 24, 20151 votes

Fiora Riven Tryndamere counters to Darius lmao. "His dueling is gutted" why? Because he's no longer as cancerous to lane against as he was before? Same shit's told for pre-nerfs Fizz, still broken as fuck.

I don't give a rats ass about mechanics, positioning, counters, skill, whatever, you name it. Fact is, his rotation can fuck you up no matter what. Similarly to Nidalee spears, you can dodge 9999, but the 1 that's going to hit you, and it will, is going to send you back to the fountain. Now take that shit, put it in an unkillable ADbruiser with very low counterplay and high lane-bully potential(more like staple).

"Oh no, he's kitable" Kappa.jpg

GastonBarnaclesSep 24, 20154 votes

Fiora does counter him dude. Dash into him so q blade doesnt hit and her w blocks his ult. She also deals true dmg and burst dmg so darius is screwed building dmg or tank.

TransgressorSep 24, 20152 votes

Unless you build full tank, you're eventualy going to get out-dps'd by him, and you'll only have your Q to damage him in vitals since true damage is going to be the only way to punish him. Oh, what was that, he healed for 1800 HP with a single Q? Well, that's too bad. If you go full AD, you'll be squishy and die, if you go bruiser, you're going to die as well, because he's built to be a better bruiser than you.

My Waifu VanillaSep 24, 20155 votes

Healed for 1800 with a single Q in lane? Damn that champ is OP for having 15000 health in lane. Seriously though if you think a Darius can beat a fiora in lane on equal footing you are just wrong. Fiora can easily dodge his Q and get a riposte off the telegraphed aprehend. Also since fioras typically go double lifesteal items you will easily out sustain him and if you get ANY momentum in lane it's game over for him since he will not be able to fight OR flee you.

LadracSep 23, 20153 votes

True. Darius is good now, but people ban him because they don't know how to deal with him. Same with Fiora...they saw a champion that can heal himself every 5 seconds and they go crazy, like is impossible to kill Darius xD After 5.16 I played Darius a lot ...along with Garen. I faced both of them too and let me give you some piece of advice, because I saw a lot of people crying about Garen. Garen has very bad cc(just a silence). So, you gotta engage after he used his silence(on your or an minion while in lane) because his E won't deal too much damage, just if he build ad. The ability that a lot of people fear is his ult. Oh, so you're low hp and you still remain in lane after Garen hit lvl 6. Cry me more about his ult xD His ult is a finishing one, so when you're low just recall. Darius has weak cc too...just slow. He doesn't have an escape, so gank him early If you're going with 30% hp to gank Darius, then don't cry about another nerfs for him. In teamfight if he's building ad or bruiser he'll die fast. He's a champion like others. He has his weak spots and his strong spots.

youngjake93Sep 23, 20157 votes

{quoted}

because I saw a lot of people crying about Garen. Garen his E won't deal too much damage, just if he build ad.

Double Infinity Edge Garen deals almost 3k damage with just his E. Watch out bro

DogIsGodSep 23, 20153 votes

[deleted]

LoLKiruSep 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yes, please.

To be more accurate, he would probably be WORSE than pre-rework Darius (albeit with a better lategame, but no real way of taking advantage of it since he'd just die too quickly).

Mostly due to the things he gave up in exchange for becoming what he is now; most notably the loss of damage on his Q, the delay it now has, the fixed pull, a good chunk of his dueling potential, as well as having the 6th worst AS in the entire game (well, its the 4th ~ 6th lowest, Jinx, Bard, and Darius actually have equal AS stats, Jinx raises hers through building AS though, as well as the steroid on her minigun)

To actually still compete without a heal, he'd need some pretty sizable buffs, at the very least he'd probably need his AS reverted to pre-rework Darius levels (allowing him to stack his passive on you faster; which would allow his passive to remain good in duels without him having a heal), maybe a buff to Q's damage as well.

{quoted}

I'm just saying cramming a random heal into a champ and calling him viable is shitty champ design.

I mean to be honest, you kind of need sustain to be a good melee champ (unless you have another way to avoid damage; but even then most people who do build sustain anyway, notably people like Fiora, Yi, Yasuo*; mostly Melee carries)

Bear in mind Darius isn't actually tanky comparatively, He doesn't have anything to help him tank damage in his kit; all he has is damage, damage and more damage, so to survive later on, he needs sustain (if he actually had something in his kit to help him survive better, that might not be the case, but we may never know; in that case I'd imagine he'd just build sustain anyway to help him tank longer); good comparison is Garen honestly, while he doesn't have sustain (in combat anyway); he has a skill that allows him to take greatly reduced damage for a duration.

*Note, Yasuo doesn't really prioritize sustain, but it is still built on him fairly often if the game goes on long enough.

TL;DR: Unless you have another way of avoiding damage (Yasuo, Riven, Fiora, Yi), or your inherently tanky (E.g: Wukong, Garen, Malphite, etc) you basically NEED sustain to function as a melee, its just the fact that your going to take a ton of damage just from being in melee range that causes this issue.

KONO RUBICK DASep 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes, please.

pre rework darius used to win against every melee with his attack speed slow and insta Q.

Wînter FoxSep 23, 20153 votes

He's pick or ban right now OP. He was an abusive lane bully even in his "weak" pre-rework state. Now he's just an absolute monster.

If they don't nerf the ridiculous heal they need to take the axe to his ridiculous damage, otherwise he'll be pick or ban forever. Pun intended.

TrueNoxianWrathSep 23, 20153 votes

Like op said if allow him to get his ridiculous damage in a teamfight then you should get punished. The problem is that people just don't deal with him correctly. Fronliners and people that lane against him are just plain bad, greedy, and stubborn if they don't back away from a Darius if they get low and he's five stacked them. Just back away from his auto attack range for all of five seconds so he doesn't proc or refresh his passive on you.

Unless you are are lagged out standing next to him for like 5 to 6 seconds there is no reason for a Darius to get his passive on you most times.

Though some champions do not have the tools to constantly weave in and out of Darius' range in the laning phase, that probably means that you either got counterpicked or willingly picked into a bad match up for either team composition or personal preference. Sucks to be you, but its not like that's never happened before to almost all top laners in mid to high elo right lol? Just play passively, look for teleports on mid or bot lane(god bless you if you brought ignite into a match up you had no idea if you would win or not), end the laning phase and group with your team.

As much as it hurts your ego or whatever to do so, you can't just play aggressive in every match up and expect to win.

And before anyone says http://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top Darius does have bad match ups with champions that are just as easy to play as him, who knew?

Corrupto123Sep 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He's pick or ban right now OP. He was an abusive lane bully even in his "weak" pre-rework state. Now he's just an absolute monster.

If they don't nerf the ridiculous heal they need to take the axe to his ridiculous damage, otherwise he'll be pick or ban forever. Pun intended.

was that pun unintended? or was that PUNINTENDED walks away

Doctor DymentSep 24, 20153 votes

The main problem is not the heal itself, but how much it heals for. It heals for... so much it feels like. He can instantly go from near death, to back in fighting condition in a single move. And it has a what, around five second cooldown at max rank?

AkesgerothSep 24, 20153 votes

"I run into Darius and smash my face on him, then I die. Must be because he's OP!"

Seriously, I wrecked a Darius as Vlad a few days ago. Yet he still got fed because the Master Yi on my team kept trying to 1v1 him under his tower.

TransgressorSep 24, 20151 votes

You played Vladimir . Dude's got like, no counterplay. The only one who keep up with his sustain is Aatrox , and he's in a rather shitty spot for a while now.

Tell me more about how you won the lane, Kappa.jpg

AkesgerothSep 24, 20153 votes

Are you implying you think Vlad is even more OP?

TransgressorSep 24, 20151 votes

I'm not implying, Vladimir is stupidly powerfull, just like Darius.

The ChucklerSep 23, 20152 votes

If he had a million dmg, all he would have to do is flash and then spin= gg. Not saying he needs the heal scrapped, just wanted to point that out... but thinking about it, it just makes me seem like a scumbag :(

Alpha PawrosSep 24, 20152 votes

I think most of the people here are forgetting that it's a percentage of his -MISSING HEALTH- and not a percentage of his max life. If Darius is trying to trade with you in lane, effing walk towards him, and if he walks further away then you just got a free card walking the other way and not taking any damage. If he goes towards you, woop de effing do you are in the half-damage range and he doesn't get the heal or even a stack of Hemmorhage. Let Darius keep his heal, 12% on a single target is nothing. I don't see anyone here complaining about Karma's Mantra W healing her for a good 20%, twice, with a scaling AP ratio, and snaring as well as dealing damage. Ya'll complain about Darius's Q in lane when you have to realize, it's far weaker than some other abilities out there.

Let's do a bit of comparisons.

At level 1, it deals a nice 20 + 50% total ad. With no AD runes, OH NO 50 DAMAGE! (If you are smart, you will try your best to dodge the blade, and if you don't try to dodge the blade you literally lost all rights of complaint.) Not to mention you even end up with only a measly 100 damage at level 1. I can think of several skills taken by top laners that deal over 100 damage. Renekton's W (90 damage plus 140% total attack damage, even more when empowered oh and it stuns and Renekton has no mana), or how about Rumble's Flamespitter, that casually hits for 39 every second when it is empowered (ignoring it's AP ratio of 50% every second) all at rank 1. Darius's Q doesn't even scale well early game compared to the other two, first of all Renekton's W gains flat damage per hit and scales on total AD so his base damage is always making it that much more powerful, and Rumble's Q just increases and increases in power way more than most other normal abilities in the game. Do I think Renekton and Rumble are op? Not really but they are good comparisons. Darius's Q just simple grows in a small bit of raw damage, and then more percentage of his AD as damage.

I'd type more here, as I have more points but I covered the largest thing people are complaining about, his Q. I'll leave a little TL;DR at the bottom for the exceptionally lazy.

Do I think Darius needs a nerf? Not really. He's fine as he is and I never have troubles with him until teamfight phase happens and I realize my team has nothing to stop him (low cc mostly melee as people have pointed out before)

TL;DR Darius's Q is not super op, other champions have over-all better abilities that aren't even avoidable.

RandcoldSep 24, 20152 votes

this is what i dont understand. so every move he has even his passive where all nerfed in the early game. people say but he has base damages no he does not darius doesnt have shit in the early game cept for a heal. darius has low attack speed the only way u lose to darius in lane is letting him 5 stack u. hell he cant run from a jungle gank if u take anyone top who has a stun gasp ik a top laner that has cc but mah damage. darius does well against people who cant all in him he can constatnly heal the damage back. so lets say u take riven top against him he builds up he q then the riven has 2 choices dash to him and just win the trade or just shield his mediocore q damage that cant even pop a lvl 1 riven shield until he puts about 3 points into it. lets do another situation we will say ur darius vs a gnar ok what do u do he just autos u till u are dead u cant do anything but my pull has 500range. ok and when u pull him all he has to keep doing is walk towards u then q u and ur dead fro a combination of slows and max health damage from gnar. what i think people dont understand is that when u fight darius u have to poke him down but gee willikers how do i do that when he has a heal. for one even if he gets the heal in the laninig phase the most its going to give back is maybe 200 health if that and he will now have about 5 secs where he cant do anything but run at u. but he has two 90 percent slows well if he pulls u before he w's then all u have to do is stand close to him after he w's u walk away and u will then get pulled so here is the big thing here. if u are letting darius get FREE DAMAGE on u for fear of his heal u desearve and will lose lane rant over.

RalanrSep 24, 20151 votes

I just wish I could cancel him midswing with a stun. Sadly he's stunned, but the attack goes through anyway.

I'm fine with the heal (numbers may vary), but let us have the power to cancel it if we have the CC.

Captain AishiSep 24, 20151 votes

i just wish i could have pre rework darius back...

he used to be a sustainless splitpushing duelist and they turned him into a teamfighting draintank.... they completely destroyed his identity and did a 180 spin on his role in a teamcomp. At this point i'm just sad that riot flat out removed one of my favorite champions from the game

Phoenix Kotori Sep 24, 20151 votes

I am fine with him having a heal.

I am not fine with him having a heal at the current potency and frequency for said heal.

Faded LichSep 25, 20151 votes

No op..We don't hate him NOW, plenty of us have hated him since he was released because his kit is not a good kit and is completely frustrating to touch or go up against.