A way to remove the annoyance of ward hops without removing it itself.

koshkyra·Apr 19, 2017·52 votes·2,650 views

When a ward is placed, it has a 6/5/4/3/2 second cooldown before lee can dash to it.

Now lee can keep his flashy plays but not him missing his Q then going "HAHA f you i have point-and-click mobility now die".

Examples:

Lee ganks bot. He misses his Q then jumps instantly to a ward and kills both of them- REMOVED
Lee is being chased by a single enemy. He then places a ward in front of him and continues running. Then, an ally comes to help Lee while he jumps back to the ward and they manage to kill the enemy and save Lee- KEPT
Lee is at 5% health and is about to be killed. Nope, nevermind, hes allowed to live just because he had a ward ready- REMOVED

51 Comments

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 19, 201722 votes

It really just needs to be removed IMO. Ward hopping is a toxic mechanic that undermines the counter-play of targeted dashes. That being that for the benefit of reliability(since you can't miss), you lose versatility(you have to have a target). ward hopping gives you the reliability of a targeted dash with the versatility of skill shot/ground targeted dash because you can create your own target. Sure it takes a little bit of skill, but once you get used to it, it's incredibly easy. You also can't forget that he will still have ally minions/champions to dash to 99% of the time that does the same job with the exception of it actually providing counter play.

Jet SettApr 20, 20173 votes

It's hardly toxic and doesn't remove the counterplay of a skillshot. You need to respect the area that Lee threatens with his ward hops, I wouldn't expect someone to not get hit with Q if the position to where he can hop over and throw it out, i also wouldn't expect someone disrespecting Kha'zix's range on his E to escape him, or someone not respecting Lucian's dash not to eat 2 autos and a Q.

Mobility does this kind of thing for everyone, and as long as you respect the range they can cover with it you shouldn't have an issue with counterplay.

WinTheWarOnPantsApr 20, 20173 votes

doesn't remove the counterplay of a skillshot.

"undermines the counter-play of targeted dashes."

You need to respect the area that Lee threatens with his ward hops

That's not possible if lee plays moderately well. His effective dash range is well outside vision range. His Q+W effective range is 1800 units(not including Q 2nd active range that makes it 2000 units), the only other jg with an effective dash range that rivals that is Zac with a MAX rank E, and no one says "you need to respect zac's slingshot range". Why? cause you cant respect something you can't see. I'm an Eve main and i never tell someone "you need to respect her stealth range" cause they can't see it until she's right on top of you! the difference is Eve will always have 700 units minimum to run are her target, and she has MUCH less dmg until late game, and she can't jump walls, AND she can't knock your ass 1200 units back into her team. "respecting" Khazix dash range is a viable counter play tip because it's only 700 units! until he hits lvl 11 or 16 then it's 900. That's a very manageable dash range even with his ults stealth. If lee could only W to minions or champions then you have actual counter play because you can zone yourself away from enemy minions/champs if you're being ganked.

Skins ProjectApr 20, 20172 votes

Zz' Rot lee sin meta begins

Jet SettApr 20, 20172 votes

You can respect Zac's range lol. You have to ward in a way that he'll approach with his E, or you simply have defensive positioning. And Lee's dash range isn't anywhere NEAR as bad as Zac's, don't know what you're talking about.

NiaphimApr 19, 201710 votes

That is awesome imo. And there is already a ward fading mechanic. So just bind ward hops to this delay, and that's it. This can also mean that he will still be able to instahop to control wards, but because a control ward costs 75 gold, imo, it's perfectly fine.

GstevenstonApr 19, 20173 votes

Idk, this solution has a couple problems. Firstly, strategies involving taking a control ward at early levels to get the free insta-ward hop would soon develop and effectively negate the removal of instant hops. Secondly, the tying of the fade mechanic to ward hops would neither A: be as long in the early game as the OP suggested (6 seconds) nor B: Scale with level.

NiaphimApr 19, 20171 votes

Buying a lot of control wards is already fairly punishing. If not, there are other possibilities, for example, the suggestion in the OP.

Skins ProjectApr 20, 20171 votes

Actually in the past before trinket lee sin was forced to buy wards (Also 75 gold.) Trinkets & the jungle item were an indirect buff that semi-broke him... The hop became nearly unlimited rather then 1-2 times per back at most along with the gold cost.

Ionian VulpixApr 19, 20175 votes

I think he should only be able to jump to wards after they''ve stealthed (2 seconds if I'm not mistaken) and have it reveal the ward for a time after. Control wards he can do it immediately, but that's still 75 gold to do, which seems reasonable.

invisiblecat1Apr 19, 20174 votes

If they are going to remove it from Katarina since they felt her escape was too free, then they should remove it from Lee Sin and Jax too

OleandervineApr 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If they are going to remove it from Katarina since they felt her escape was too free, then they should remove it from Lee Sin and Jax too

Or if Lee and Jax still have it, Rakan should get it too.

invisiblecat1Apr 19, 20171 votes

but then it is unfair for kata since she can't have it but they all can

ModAcademy KaynApr 19, 20175 votes

Context, you need it. They removed it from Kat because her mobility got Up'd huge time from her rework. Before she got one-shunpo till she got a kill. Now she get's Shunpos off daggers, off the resets, which leads to more daggers and more shunpos. Having Ward hoping to THAT is pretty unnecessary, hence it's removals.

Skins ProjectApr 20, 20171 votes

Kat can still wall hop if u do her we more or less at the same time by a wall.

KarfussApr 20, 20174 votes

Just remove ward hopping.

There is only one champion in the entire roster that interacts with wards in such a convoluted way, and only one champion that benefits from it. A toxic, cheese mechanic that should not go hand in hand with an already low cooldown, high damage gap closing ability.

Although I do feel its futile at this point. Riot love the interaction, even deliberately creating a Champion specific jungle item to encourage it.

Whut Thuh Apr 20, 20171 votes

? hello? anybody home? do you play league of legends at all? because jax can also do the same thing, at a longer range. and lee's w cooldown goes up to almost 14 seconds at early levels when you hop to wards (a.k.a. really long time) and i dont even know how you got the last idea in your head but no, lee does not do damage with his w, not at all in fact. if you hop to a ward you get a total of..... wait for it...... nothing

KarfussApr 20, 20172 votes

Who is Jax? (and yes, that was a slight at how relevant he is, before jimmies get rustled again).

14 seconds is nothing at rank 1, again, when hand in hand with his Q.

And obviously, I was referring to his Q.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

koshkyraApr 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Who is Jax? (and yes, that was a slight at how relevant he is, before jimmies get rustled again).

14 seconds is nothing at rank 1, again, when hand in hand with his Q.

And obviously, I was referring to his Q.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

You shouldnt have even said that last sentence, the guy was playing dumb.

MysterQApr 19, 20173 votes

Oh this is still a cool idea.

XIII VanitasApr 20, 20173 votes

I don't think it's a good idea. It would prevent Lee Sin players from performing iInsec plays, which are really cool to watch and certainly not easy to pull off.

Lee Sin should keep his high mobility, because he's defined by it. What he needs is to have clear and exploitable weaknesses somewhere else in his kit, because the only available counterplay right now is to doge his Q (which is pretty hard, if he has the chance to gap close to you and shoot it from point blank range).

For example, I would make the damage of the second part of his Q scale based on distance travelled: if Lee casts it from max range, it remains an execute (just like it is now); if Lee casts it from melee range, it does pitiful damage. This way, Lee would have a hard time fighting 1v1 against melee champions that can stick to him and he would generally be forced to position himself correctly before ulting his target away and hitting it with the second part of his Q.

zaire90Apr 19, 20172 votes

I dont play the dude but thats going to be pretty shitty if he has to wait 6 secs to ward hop its going to give him the same problems as the assassin rework which was made alot of the champs lose their fluid feeling because of weird delays to their mobility ik the boards hate the dude but damn

Spacesuit SpiffApr 19, 20172 votes

Not to mention this would keep my favorite thing about lee: place a ward ahead of time while invading, and then if the invade goes south just keep juking around by jumping to the ward through a wall/Qing to monsters.

I guess you guys might be offended by him doing that, but its hilarious to watch in montages.

OMFG CookiesApr 20, 20172 votes

i think you make it like 5/4/3/2/1 then you are on to something, 6 seconds is basically like not having the ability at all.

Troll for TrumpApr 20, 20172 votes

When a ward is placed, it has a 6/5/4/3/2 second cooldown before lee can dash to it.

But then he can't wardhop ult

koshkyraApr 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But then he can't wardhop ult

Thats basically the point, screw the "wardhop ult", he doesnt need it to be completely instant with no warning or counterplay.

NvestmentPlankerApr 20, 20173 votes

do you realize how fucking stupid that cooldown is? even at 2 seconds before lee can ward hop any braindead bronze player can move away from where he placed the ward. you're just a salty low elo player (Silver 4).

Troll for TrumpApr 20, 20171 votes

He probably does need it to be an engager.

DUDE BROApr 20, 20172 votes

Here's a better idea:

Ward hopping to a ward before it goes invisible permanently reveals the ward.

Everyone can still do their flashy plays, but now the ward won't turn invisible if it was ward hopped super early, and can be killed after.

PrinceOfStormsApr 20, 20171 votes

Or, ward hopping to a ward before it goes invisible destroys the ward.

RyzeRevolutionApr 20, 20172 votes

Nah it should just be removed, that would hit him hard enough for him to not be meta every single patch every single game and in nearly every single match. Kata and a couple other champions got it removed yet he doesn't even though he is the most mobile of the bunch, the only one that should have it is Jax otherwise he would have literally no mobility when running away.

JbelsApr 19, 20171 votes

Missing Q has nothing to do with ward hopping closer to the enemy. From what I've heard from pro players, you should never throw out your Q during a gank until you force out every single mobility option they have to get away from you

Ariel the CruelApr 20, 20171 votes

Fun trivia: Ward hopping (in general) was actually a bug. Riot decided they liked it and left it in.

koshkyraApr 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HeUJpOZ9,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-04-20T00:58:40.497+0000)

Fun trivia: Ward hopping (in general) was actually a bug. Riot decided they liked it and left it in.

Thank you for this.

Hexs FortuneApr 20, 20171 votes

We could use the brief time the ward is visible to the enemy as the indicator for when lee cannot ward hop. That small amount of time to kill the ward would be counter-play to prevent lee mobilty

Whut Thuh Apr 20, 20171 votes

i have never seen anyone, myself included, use what you said, where you are running and then put a ward down and wait for them to run up to it, because hey guess what thats an easily readable play that no one will fall for because the'll see him place the ward and go "oh, well the only reason he would do that is if he wanted to hop back to it later, which would only happen if he has backup or cooldowns, so im going to peace out."

plus lets look at other forms of dashes, like gragas or ahri or aatrox, who dont need targets and can go over walls easily and may also have cc but are not limited to anything other than a cooldown, which lee is also limited to.

a better solution you could do without literally wiping lee sin out of the jungle in one patch just because people are to dumb to respect a mobile champion with wards and safe play. is to increase the cooldown you receive when hopping to an ally other than a champion (which already exists btw) so you increase the amount of time you have to punish him after he wardhops and he is unable to use ward hop offensively and defensively in a short fight, like he can sometimes now.

MisticaltomApr 20, 20171 votes

I'd rather they limited how many wards Lee Sin has access to.

He used to require gold per ward hop. Now the hop is free. At least the Jungler item is effective and costs the offensive smite. But his Warding trinket is always free.

vodrio12Apr 20, 20171 votes

as a jax player i don't like it.... its part of my champ....

koshkyraApr 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

as a jax player i don't like it.... its part of my champ....

Nono, keep it on jax. Jax has no mobilty other than his Q ward hop.

However, remove it from lee who already has a bullshit amount of mobility in his kit and does not need ward hopping.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 20, 20171 votes

Ur proposition is so retarded... There no point to balance Lee if u remove insec. And even without this 6 sec is useless, during his gank he would go faster just walking...

MelledoneusApr 20, 20171 votes

Or make it so that if wards are visible to the enemy team they cannot be hopped to. That way you need to wait for it to stealth and cannot use blue or control wards to hop.

koshkyraApr 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Or make it so that if wards are visible to the enemy team they cannot be hopped to. That way you need to wait for it to stealth and cannot use blue or control wards to hop.

This is a good idea actually.

Thresh Outta FuxApr 20, 20171 votes

Honestly, this is a great idea. Right now, Lee is the only one who can wardhop, right?

If this gets implemented, a lot of champs who would seem "too strong" to ward hop, could be allowed to utilize the mechanic as well, e.g. Braum Katarina etc.

I find it silly that a support (Braum) cant ward hop to protect his wards (warding is a support-based mechanic) while a jungle hypermobile can.

PrinceOfStormsApr 20, 20171 votes

Kat can ward hop.

1995 2017RiP EvaApr 20, 20171 votes

You are all Bronze for real

You all go like

"No no everyone can have ward hope but LEE need to not have it"

Lee ultimate without ward hope would need to have MASSIVE buff in order to be good

Because his ultimate is LITERALLY kicking someone AWAY imagine if he dosent have ward hope ulti kick IMAGINE THAT

What would be the point of the ulti? just damage? and knocking people away?

Jesus people you are BRONZE for real you are bad no this is not salt this is reallity right now you people have no idea about the game mechanics and how it work..i mean why you talk about balance when you are in elo that malphite and blitz concider teh most OP champions in the game

Do this game and favor i mean the boards need to be fixed that only people from gold and more can have an opinion about balance and people in diamond/master can have opinions about champiosn

Because teh rest of you you dont know what you say remove ward hope from lee onlu but everyone else can keep it? do you see how you sound?

You god damn bronzies think his kit before you talk

koshkyraApr 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You are all Bronze for real

You all go like

"No no everyone can have ward hope but LEE need to not have it"

Lee ultimate without ward hope would need to have MASSIVE buff in order to be good

Because his ultimate is LITERALLY kicking someone AWAY imagine if he dosent have ward hope ulti kick IMAGINE THAT

What would be the point of the ulti? just damage? and knocking people away?

Jesus people you are BRONZE for real you are bad no this is not salt this is reallity right now you people have no idea about the game mechanics and how it work..i mean why you talk about balance when you are in elo that malphite and blitz concider teh most OP champions in the game

Do this game and favor i mean the boards need to be fixed that only people from gold and more can have an opinion about balance and people in diamond/master can have opinions about champiosn

Because teh rest of you you dont know what you say remove ward hope from lee onlu but everyone else can keep it? do you see how you sound?

You god damn bronzies think his kit before you talk

Ok, since you're being ridiculous, ill just break this down for you.

1.) i am not even bronze

2.) theres one other person in the game with wardhop and thats jax. jax needs it because its his only form of mobility. lee has much more and does not need this.

3.) "what would be the point of his ulti? Just damage? And knocking people away?" Yes.. what do you think the point of it is right now? How excactly will my proposal affect his ultimate AT ALL?

1995 2017RiP EvaApr 21, 20171 votes

1-you are bronze

2-what other mobility tool lee have? his W ether is ally or wardhope he dosent have other mobility you bronze same as JAX or you gonna say about his Q on an enemy minion? because then 60 champions can do the same so where is his mobility you bronze? SHOW IT jax can Q to a minion or ally and ward lee can W to ward minion and ally SAME AS JAX SO HOW LEE HAVE MORE MOBILITY? EXPLAIN YOUR SHIT YOU BRONZE

3-If you think lee R is just to knock people away from him THEN GO BACK TO BRONZE

IncarcerationApr 21, 20171 votes

That proposal is not right, it's just better to lower the range of his W from twice the distance of flash, to just the distance of flash.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 21, 20171 votes

umm. i am neutral here. i literally give 0 fucks if lee gets nerfed or not. i dont play him or mind playing against him as it is usually a free win in my elo. however.

how does that not stop flashy play. that compltely negates any Q-W-R insec potential. unless the guy is dced.

he just needs his ms reduced by 10 or 15. or not need but should. sort of like how warwick lost a lot of ms for getting situational mobility.