Reminder that bans are supposed to be strategically used on counters

WoonStruck·Aug 12, 2019·104 votes·17,838 views

Not to prevent overpowered champions from being played.

They're not an excuse to keep things blatantly overpowered.

114 Comments

Tuition FeeAug 12, 201955 votes

Wants to play Braum for the funsies "Lemme just ban someone who pokes the shit out of me while being extremely safe/does a million dmg" Lux exists Vel Koz exists Pyke exists Xerath exists Zyra exists Brand exists

Oh wait, maybe I should ban some OP mid laners.

Yasuo exists (Don't even tell me he's weak, his supposedly "bad early" means once he hits lvl 3, he can kill you if you just misstep a teeny bit) Zed exists Katarina exists Fizz exists Mordekaiser exists

Well, shit!

WoonStruckAug 12, 201911 votes

Yasuo exists (Don't even tell me he's weak, his supposedly "bad early" means once he hits lvl 3, he can kill you if you just misstep a teeny bit)

Level 3? That's a bit late. Good Yasuos take E as early as level 1 if they have ignite for their opponent's missteps. Unless you take CC/escape lvl 1 or 2, there's not much you can do to stop it unless you flash.

Worst part is there's no downside to this. Dashing through minions to you means he's already taken himself outside of range to be punished by them, and most of the time you'll at least auto him, activating his shield and mitigating the damage further.

The base MS he has means he can orb-walk early vs most ranged match-ups.

If you don't have the range/tools to avoid it on the champion you're playing, you have to give up several waves before you can start farming effectively. This usually means you're stuck at level one while he free-farms.

Luckily, most Yasuo players suck ass so they don't start that until level 2+ when you likely take your escape/cc vs him.

What I don't understand is why more junglers don't capitalize on this.

Sewer SideAug 12, 20197 votes

When the hell did you fight Yasuo last?

Almost nobody is taking E first Yasuo, especially since the minion aggro changes on single target spells. Not to mention the E nerfs a long while ago.

Why do you talk like you have any authority when you say something easily researched like that?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/skills-orders/yasuo

Literally 1.5% of all Yasuo’s go E first.

98.5% is Q first, and majority Q max

WoonStruckAug 12, 20193 votes

Minion aggro changes didn't do that much to lvl 1 E -> Q max. If you walk up to the caster line before you E through, then E to the champion, you're out of range of melee aggro, and the casters will be following you, getting few attacks off.

The reason people don't start E in the majority of match-ups is because its match-up dependent (base MS/armor/general lvl 1 ability/passive) and its not safe due to the jungler if they actually react.

Notice how I said "If you don't have the range/tools to avoid it on the champion you're playing".

And if you can't do it level one, you wait a whole 8 minions and can start then. It doesn't change that you can do the exact same thing at level 2, and that's what usually happens.

MMM Monster killAug 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-12T10:15:34.635+0000)

When the hell did you fight Yasuo last?

Almost nobody is taking E first Yasuo, especially since the minion aggro changes on single target spells. Not to mention the E nerfs a long while ago.

Why do you talk like you have any authority when you say something easily researched like that?

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/skills-orders/yasuo

Literally 1.5% of all Yasuo’s go E first.

98.5% is Q first, and majority Q max

as far as i know yasuo goes E first vs ranged and Q first vs melee

NemeBroAug 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=MMM Monster kill,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-12T20:46:17.166+0000)

as far as i know yasuo goes E first vs ranged and Q first vs melee

You apparently don't know very far then.

AmazoXAug 13, 20191 votes

Wrong, Yasuo taking E first was back in season 5 only.

MMM Monster killAug 13, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Wrong, Yasuo taking E first was back in season 5 only.

vs ranged he takes E first, vs melee Q first

VentiraAug 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tuition Fee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-12T04:18:02.331+0000)

Wants to play Braum for the funsies "Lemme just ban someone who pokes the shit out of me while being extremely safe/does a million dmg" Lux exists Vel Koz exists Pyke exists Xerath exists Zyra exists Brand exists

Oh wait, maybe I should ban some OP mid laners.

Yasuo exists (Don't even tell me he's weak, his supposedly "bad early" means once he hits lvl 3, he can kill you if you just misstep a teeny bit) Zed exists Katarina exists Fizz exists Mordekaiser exists

Well, shit!

This is literally me, I love braum, but the meta in botlane seems to just be OVERWHELMING DAMAGE supports every single match. With Ignite.

JanakinAug 12, 20193 votes

Yasuo IS weak early.

VlädïmïrAug 12, 201910 votes

So why does he have priority in the majority of ranged match-ups mid?

LaçezAug 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tuition Fee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-12T04:18:02.331+0000)

Wants to play Braum for the funsies "Lemme just ban someone who pokes the shit out of me while being extremely safe/does a million dmg" Lux exists Vel Koz exists Pyke exists Xerath exists Zyra exists Brand exists

Oh wait, maybe I should ban some OP mid laners.

Yasuo exists (Don't even tell me he's weak, his supposedly "bad early" means once he hits lvl 3, he can kill you if you just misstep a teeny bit) Zed exists Katarina exists Fizz exists Mordekaiser exists

Well, shit!

Not gonna lie, Lux, Vel'koz, Brand, Kat, sometimes Zed/Fizz & Xerath are kinda manageable, but I fully agree with the rest.

TerozuAug 12, 20192 votes

Kat is stomped by anyone with cc that interrupts her ult.

If you are as good at the game as Kat and you have a stun and aren't a support(and even if you are sometimes), you should slaughter her.

Something like 90% of the roster counters her in some way. With like half of those being hard counters.

I mean have you seen her flowchart?

Typhl0Aug 12, 20191 votes

U can legit counter kata with ur movement and sidestep if u have cc its rly hard to feed a kata

TerozuAug 12, 20192 votes

Seriously, versing a Kat is one giant position match. If she kills you she either flashed or you were out of position for your class/role.

And for God's fucking sake don't stand on her daggers then go what!? When she fucking chunks you.

ORB1TSAug 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tuition Fee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-12T04:18:02.331+0000)

Wants to play Braum for the funsies "Lemme just ban someone who pokes the shit out of me while being extremely safe/does a million dmg" Lux exists Vel Koz exists Pyke exists Xerath exists Zyra exists Brand exists

Oh wait, maybe I should ban some OP mid laners.

Yasuo exists (Don't even tell me he's weak, his supposedly "bad early" means once he hits lvl 3, he can kill you if you just misstep a teeny bit) Zed exists Katarina exists Fizz exists Mordekaiser exists

Well, shit!

I wouldn't call Yasuo, Zed or katarina over powered. But I see what you are saying.

Sir SaltarinAug 12, 201917 votes

I strategically perma ban Yasuo

Abibyama IIAug 12, 20193 votes

I strategically Yasou so my teammates won't pick him

JuiceBoxPAug 12, 201915 votes

Currently you just ban the 10 most broken picks in the game... Unless you want to play them of coirse

General Esdeath Aug 12, 20197 votes

I still don't get why this is acceptable for solo queue but for pro play (where they ave 5 coordinated bans) Riot decides to gut galio. Can pro teams NOT just ban him?

WoonStruckAug 12, 20197 votes

Galio isn't exciting to watch though, even though they reworked him into a spectator champion.

General Esdeath Aug 12, 20192 votes

They claimed the change was because he was too strong in pro play. If he's too strong, they can just ban him.

Dromar421Aug 12, 20196 votes

Shaco Singed Says you can not ban 99% of the champ pool. Remember you personally only get 1.

cuddlykitten4Aug 12, 20196 votes

I'm pretty sure bans are to do whatever you want with. I think maybe you just personally don't like that decision. You sure you aren't confusing "I want" with "You're supposed to"? Evidence: if bans were specifically strategically used for counters, then why does the no ban option exist? Can't counter anything with that.

AnateraAug 12, 20195 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure bans are to do whatever you want with. I think maybe you just personally don't like that decision. You sure you aren't confusing "I want" with "You're supposed to"? Evidence: if bans were specifically strategically used for counters, then why does the no ban option exist? Can't counter anything with that.

All other games like League have bans for the exact purpose of helping you get rid of your counters. Do you think League is so special that it can transcend every other game in this purpose? Allow me to answer for you: No, it's fucking not. League's meta is hideously unbalanced, so players have no choice but to ban overpowered champs. While other games have their own overpowered characters, they are nowhere near as bad as League's, where you're forced to ban certain champs or automatically play at a disadvantage. "Doing whatever you want with it" is just you saying you're OK with either playing at a massive handicap for no good reason or being embarrassingly ignorant of the meta.

WoonStruckAug 12, 20196 votes

There's literally no reason the "no ban" option exists, and Riot is stupid for adding it.

Not using your ban is entirely pointless and only potentially sets you back relative to actually using it.

cuddlykitten4Aug 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There's literally no reason the "no ban" option exists, and Riot is stupid for adding it.

Not using your ban is entirely pointless and only potentially sets you back relative to actually using it.

It doesn't set you back. Here, I'll give you an exact example. I've played this game a long time. Let's say someone bans Teemo, and the person who bans him is last pick. I can assume he's going to be a champ in top lane and something that teemo counters so if I pick before that person (assuming I'm top) I have a pretty good idea of what kind of champ I'm gonna be up against and I counter that. I would assume they didn't want to blind so I just roll Quinn then run the Nasus I saw coming as last pick out of his lane. It's the same as poker. I know what's in your hand based on what isn't in mine......and because I stacked the deck......just like how I stacked the counter pick against nasus simply by reading into his ban pick. Otherwise most things I pick in top on my own volition don't do as well against Nasus. He'd have been better off not banning anything. The no ban isn't there so people can be assholes. It's their because at a certain number of games you can read the comps simply off of their ban choices.

My example is from an actual game I played by the way.

WoonStruckAug 28, 20191 votes

Its still entirely pointless because you can use a meta ban that you have a hard time with anyway.

With the Nasus example, he could ban Darius. Or he can ban someone that peels well for late game, like Nami.

Almost anything is better than the "no ban" option.

cuddlykitten4Sep 15, 20191 votes

Two issues here, not everyone has a champions they have a hard time with. I"ve played long enough I have a counter strat for everyone with almost any champ I might be on. The issue at that point becomes whether my opponent is better than me in general or not. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. A ban won't change that.

Second issue, you still haven't given any reason why it is a bad call to not ban someone in order to prevent champ/lane predicting. Once you hit a certain point there becomes a decent number of players who will do that. I do that, and it wins games (at the least puts me in a good position coming out of lane phase) for me on occasion. It's not some game breaking thing. It is an extra edge against players who don't think like that though.

inuitmailmanAug 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure bans are to do whatever you want with. I think maybe you just personally don't like that decision. You sure you aren't confusing "I want" with "You're supposed to"? Evidence: if bans were specifically strategically used for counters, then why does the no ban option exist? Can't counter anything with that.

ERROR: you must’ve misunderstood the prompt. Please read and try again at a later date •o•

cuddlykitten4Aug 26, 20191 votes

No I fully understood it, and I am 100% correct. I'm gonna guess by how you phrased taht that you don't have a lot of friends do you? Probably still in high school. You're probably that kid that sits with the same two other kids at lunch every day, sits in the back of the class lacking the confidence to interact with your peers. Probably have no hobbies or talents. I'm assuming you probably just play on your computer all the time. The reason I say this is because anyone who interacts with other people regularly would understand that saying what you said really just makes you look stupid rather than accomplishing the attempted goal of an insult. Didn't expect to be broken down as a result of that did you?

inuitmailmanSep 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No I fully understood it, and I am 100% correct. I'm gonna guess by how you phrased taht that you don't have a lot of friends do you? Probably still in high school. You're probably that kid that sits with the same two other kids at lunch every day, sits in the back of the class lacking the confidence to interact with your peers. Probably have no hobbies or talents. I'm assuming you probably just play on your computer all the time. The reason I say this is because anyone who interacts with other people regularly would understand that saying what you said really just makes you look stupid rather than accomplishing the attempted goal of an insult. Didn't expect to be broken down as a result of that did you?

oh you thought i was flaming you? nah my dude, i was saying you didnt understand the prompt. The fact that you said i was still in highschool must mean that you are out. Now im not about to get into a "my dad is bigger than your dad" argument like youre trying to do. That would be silly. WE wouldnt do THAT would we? Apparently that is the only way you know how to argue though. Like a juvenile who thinks he has the biggest PAPA. That's fine:) we are all at different stages of our maturity and im sure youll get there one day too:). What i was saying is that you proposed that OP meant we should do whatever we want to with bans. Where what he MEANT and what your didnt UNDERSTAND was that he was commenting on how there is so many broken champs that we dont have enough bans to be safe with whatever you pick. Hope that cleared it up for you CUDDLYKITTEN4 let me know when you reach maturity at the ripe age of 34:)

cuddlykitten4Sep 15, 20191 votes

Dear child,

I'd like to start by saying that I would be the dad that is bigger. Just so we understand where we would really stand in real life since you chose to take that sort of approach here. Your attempt to make it personal won't really affect me as I know you'd never have it in you to say it if you saw me in person. Now, on to the matter at hand. I"m still completely correct, and you have not disproven that. You're speaking in cyclical arguments and tangents. It's you who doesn't understand. OP is saying that people are supposed to use their bans for strategic counters. I was never agreeing with the OP. I'm calling him wrong. Too busy arguing to stop and comprehend are we?

P.S. I konw what you're referring to as well. You think OP was saying there are too many champs that are powerful. He was saying that bans is no excuse for Riot to not nerf things that are broken. I disagree with his logic there too, but I did not address that part at all. So.....wanna be wrong some more?

NaughtyWordAug 12, 20195 votes

If I am mid,

I always ban Zed no ifs, ands, or buts.

If I am bot,

I always ban Vayne no ifs, ands, or buts.

If I am Jg,

I usually ask my team what they want banned, particularly toplaner

If I am support,

I ask my ADC what they want banned.

If I am top,

I dodge.

ZullarAug 12, 20194 votes

I haven't seen a Yasuo in years. I love the new ban system :P

CrazyMonkeyCZAug 12, 20193 votes

Could we stop acting like there are any counters that matter under masters?

General Esdeath Aug 12, 201914 votes

Are you implying a counterpick in Gold/Plat doesn't matter?

CrazyMonkeyCZAug 12, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-08-12T06:47:41.425+0000)

Are you implying a counterpick in Gold/Plat doesn't matter?

No, I'm implaing that counterpicks don't matter up to masters and many players above that still won't give a shit about counterpicks and will go with their comfort pick.

General Esdeath Aug 12, 20199 votes

That's possibly the worst implication I've ever seen on here.

CrazyMonkeyCZAug 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-12T06:56:15.775+0000)

That's possibly the worst implication I've ever seen on here.

Why? It’s literally true. There are easier matchups and harder ones, but picking one champ into another won’t automatically win you game, not even lane in many cases. Dota is the game where these things matter.

Troll for TrumpAug 12, 20193 votes

IDK man, Kled into Dar, a competent Jax into Dar, Yorick into Dar, Neeko into Dar. And on the flipside, any non-malphite tank into dar is an autoloss, basically.

U R Good At GameAug 12, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-12T15:57:21.330+0000)

IDK man, Kled into Dar, a competent Jax into Dar, Yorick into Dar, Neeko into Dar. And on the flipside, any non-malphite tank into dar is an autoloss, basically.

Dude this is why I can't stand top lane in particular anymore. There alot basically auto-loss match-ups that basically force you under tower the entire lane. Your entire goal in lane becomes pick up CS that somehow wondered away from them and try not to int.

Troll for TrumpAug 13, 20192 votes

Worst part is when they send jgl to dive you and the team's like "just hide under turret" "play safE" "build tank"

Hi im 12Aug 12, 20191 votes

jax is so garbage right now even darius stomps his ass super fucking hard mate

Troll for TrumpAug 13, 20194 votes

Tier 2 isn't garbage. Tank tops are garbage. Competent jax should shit on dar.

Hi im 12Aug 13, 20191 votes

no jax beats a competent darius rn, sure darius will get outscaled extremely hard but darius beats the shit out of jax for a long time.

WoonStruckAug 13, 20193 votes

the match-up is literally afk farm for jax, E if he pulls, or harass him with E up and jump away during the stun so you don't get pulled.

MMM Monster killAug 12, 20191 votes

i perma ban Darius fuck that champ

unless i play Fizz , then i can outplay him hard

Prestige AkaIiAug 15, 20191 votes

"outplay"

MMM Monster killAug 17, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prestige AkaIi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HcEqEvln,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2019-08-15T22:16:40.855+0000)

"outplay"

if you kill darius 1v1 with any melee champ that's an outplay. darius passive is broken as fk.