[INDEPTH] How 5.10 butchered Karma's playstyle

SilverSquid··6 votes·812 views

Long read ahead: [TL;DR] at the bottom.

The 5.10 patch is one, that many Karma fans remember painfully, because it was a goodbye to one of her most iconic spells: the shieldbomb. Riot removed it, because they wanted to buff her passive and not make her overbearing, and increase the "contextual decision making" with her ultimate. I didn't like the changes when I saw them in the patchnotes, but tried giving it a chance. Sometimes things just look bad on paper, but work very well ingame. I usually agree with the changes Riot does too. However, after some months of playing her in various roles and with different builds, I realized, that I had been right. Riot failed Karma with this update. In this thread I will try to explain to you why.

What changed?

BUFFS: passive scales with levels, [W] has a better ratio, [RW] roots for longer, [RE] shields for slightly more CHANGES: [E] is more spammable at higher levels, [W] can target monsters now NERFS: [RW] and [RE] damage removed

Overall the changes seemed powerneutral, but the changes to her ultimate were bigger than they appeared. Karma was (and is) all about her Mantra. You can differentiate a great Karma player from a new one, by how well they decide what spell to enhance and when. Riot realized this, and thus wrote: "... a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?)"

Riot didn't provide the full numbers in the patchnotes, so I did the math, and came up with this:


	||**Old RE**| -> |**New RE**|

|:--|:--:|:--:|:--:| |Main Shield| 110-390 (+80%) | -> | 110-410 (+80%) | |AoE Shield| 30-150 (+30%) | --> | 55-205 (+40%) | |Damage| 60-300 (+60%) | -> | 0 |


	||**Old RW**| -> |**New RW**|

|:--|:--:|:--:|:--:| |Damage| 135-560 (+120%) | -> | 60-260 (+90%) | |Root| 1-2s | --> | 1.5-3.25 |


As you can see, both her spells were nerfed drastically. The improved values on her main target doesn't validate suddenly calling it a "mega shield". The damage nerf on her [RW] means MORE than HALF her base damage was gone, on top of some scaling. Add to that, that her [W]-[RQ] combo was buffed, and using any other combination suddenly could be considered foolish. Another thing is, when the [RW] bonus comes into effect. The damage was noticeable for the first 2s and always had some effect. The root increase only shows its benefit after 3-4seconds, and sometimes does nothing, if the tether breaks.

The new [RW] and [RE] also scale better with base levels than mantra levels. This reintroduces a problem, that Riot tried to remove with Karma's initial rework; they didn't want Mantra to only be useful on the abilities that you leveled. But guess what: Before 5.10 your AoE shield would always be useful, as it was depentant on your Mantra. Now it is based on your [E] strength. The extra damage in [RW] always kept it a viable option, whereas the increased root is too unsafe to apply for supp Karma and too useless for mid Karma. Casting it at lvl13 for example, if the tether wasn't leveled, gives you exactly 2.0s or root. An amount of utility, that Morgana provides at lvl1.

Talking about Morgana; She is the mage with the next comparable root, at 3.0s if her [Q] is maxed (possible at lvl9). Karma with her "mega root" can outdo her.... at level 16-18. Why? Because she needs to have both [R] and [W] maxed. But even then Morgana's [Q] is faster and safer to apply, while offering more damage and is on a lower cooldown. Or put bluntly: due to Karma's casting time (0.5), Karma's root will apply at around the time that Morgana's root already ticks out. Let that sink in.

My point is, that praising her changed [RW] and [RE] as "mega root" and "mega shield" felt like a slap to the face, after how much those two skills were nerfed. But that wasn't even the worst part.

Highlighting Karma's strengths by removing what she was good at

Sarcasm put aside; With [RW] and [RE] that much weaker and the [W]-[RQ] combo buffed, it was pretty clear what combo you would go for all the time. Before the patch you could spot a newbie Karma if they constantly used [RQ]. Now everybody does that.

I think, we can all agree that one of Karma's strengths is her flexibility. This was expressed in her Mantra: it was unique, in that it gave you three options of applying its damage:

  • Long range [175+0.3 AP] burst, a hefty slow, while gambling for a second proc for your passive, and [350+0.6AP] extra damage.
  • Short range [300+0.6AP] single target DoT, with nice self-heal.
  • Conditional [300+0.6AP] AoE burst, that needs allies to target, but also provides nice shielding and speed to your team.

This gave her the tool for nearly every situation. However, since the damage also came in a bundle with some utility, and spells like [RE] also asked for clever placement, choosing the right one at the right time was tricky. You could always improve upon that and always find more situations in which using your mantra some seconds later or earlier in a different way would've been better.

But now? It's [RQ] all day in lane, which makes Karma boring and predictable. You can't bait Yasuo shields anymore and then hit him with a shieldbomb from behind. You can't outrade a fizz anymore, that knows that when he hears your mantra pop, he just needs to keep his pole ready.

And later on? You just need to think: More damage? More CC? More speed/shield? There is nothing more to it. Once you decided what you want, there is no cleverness in your execution anymore, no hard decision making on where to aim your [RE] shield. Just hit as many of your team as possible. Who cares?

To make this clear: I do NOT think that Karma is unbalanced or even weak. I do NOT care if she can't excell in any role or if she is never gonna be picked in LCS or somewhere. I do NOT care if she is underrated and never OP in any meta.

I just want her to have some depth again. I chose old Karma for her complexity and depth, even when virtually nobody liked her. Even after the rework I found enough "wise decision making" in her kit, to enjoy her. But contrary to the good design, Riot loves pouring into other champions (easy to learn, hard to master), they keep lowering Karma's skillceiling again and again. But at least they keep buffing her. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

TL;DR and Summary

Riot failed at "differentiating Karma's contextual decision making". They achieved the opposite. By nerfing [RW] and [RE] and buffing the [W]-[RQ] combo, they made her a one-trick-pony in lane. By making [RW] and [RE] scale mostly by base ability levels, they reduced her flexiblity. By removing the duality aspect from her [RW] and [RE] they made Karma's decision making bland. By removing the shieldbomb they robbed her of an iconic and unique ability.

Riot did prove again, that they have no idea what to do with Karma. I know, we Karma fans aren't united enough to send clear pictures what we want, so it isn't exactly easy for them, but man..... at least we can agree that cutting core parts out of a champion and making their playstyle more shallow is not the way to go.

If you agree please upvote, so Riot sees this. If you disagree.... feel free to downvote, but at least let me know why first!

34 Comments

IxtaliKing2 votes

I'm glad you made this thread, I'm sad that it probably won't be seen by the people who need to see it though. If riot doesn't want to rework Karma again or keep buffing her, they should just revert her to her pre 5.10 state then tweak as necessary for all the s6 changes. Karma wasn't perfect before 5.10, but she was certainly more fun, unique and effective. With the Mage update coming I can see Karma being pushed out of mid almost completely and probably falling off harder as a support too. The funny thing is, those changes were looked upon as improvements to support Karma, but they actually made her less effective as a support too... Karma is 1 case where Riot would be better off reverting their changes.

SilverSquid2 votes

Thanks!

I think Karma is the only champion in league, that has effectively lost depth and uniqueness over the years. I can not imagine Riot doing this on purpose, so I must infer that they didn't notice. That's why I will keep adressing this, until I get an answer. I am becoming used to being ignored, but I will not stop adressing her. At least, here in the NA boards, there is a slight chance this will eventually happen.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Well, good luck man. I'll just continue to support your posts wherever I see them. What's the goal though, a re-rework or a pre 5.10 revert?

SilverSquid1 votes

My main goals are:

  1. A propper discussion with Riot.
  2. More depth for her kit.

What eventually comes from this, I don't really mind that much. Riot has a bad trackrecord of "undoing" things, so I wouldn't expect that, even if it would already satisfy me. Any of the two reworks I proposed I would undoubtedly enjoy, even if Riot would just use parts of it to make their own thing (I am no game designer, in the end).

Lastly, there was a guy on EUW that tried to tackle the inherent problem of a 2 stack mantra. Riot reasoned, that possibly having two of those, this would necessarily cap their power and NEVER give them ultimate quality, making all of her kit feel low-impact, no matter what. He (EDYinnit) argued, that you could allow Karma to double charge base abilities, consuming UP TO two stacks per spell. If you spent only one mantra, you would gain "duality" (E would deal AoE damage, Q would heal, etc.). Spending two mantras would increase the spell to "ultimate level", as it essentially has a 90s cooldown. This would allow her to feel impactful, make her very indepth and complex, while allowing a lot of her old ingenuity into today's environment.

While I do think, that my propositions give Karma more character and viability overall, that is easier to tune, I failed at thinking up anything that could work with 2 Mantra stacks to my and Riot's design philosophy's satisfaction (say that 10 times, jesus). So maybe that? I dunno. Getting some answers would help. I'm feeling my way through designdarkness here.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I definitely agree with adding depth back to her kit, not too sure about the RQ heal thing though (a bit before my time). I'd be happy if Riot came up with a new way to fix Karma once and for all in that utility mage update that won't be happening for years. In the mean time though I wish for nothing more than a revert, the 5.10 changes are doing her a massive disservice. Karma now is the result of people trying to fix what wasn't broken.

I wish I had paid attention at the time to add my voice to those opposing the changes :(

SilverSquid1 votes

And I was too slow at propperly testing. But I'd rather be late and right, than quick and misstaken.

Anyways, Riot isn't unreasonable. We will get there eventually.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

I don't know what they want from that champion anymore. Tbh.

Is she a mage? She has glaring issues when it comes to mid lane.

Is she a support? She has glaring issues when it comes to that too.

Before the update W-RQ was her kill combo and now after the update W-RQ is still her kill combo though. Unfortunately, it's just so predictable.

SilverSquid1 votes

"Before the update W-RQ was her kill combo and now after the update W-RQ is still her kill combo though"

I guess. It was her most gambly combo before and now it's all she has. No wonder she falls off in lategame, lol. A good mage has some reliable damage in her kit, and with RE she could work somehow in teamfights. But now it's just.... blergh.

Quepha1 votes

I didn't like when RE just did everything in an area, its purpose was too vague.

Maybe Karma is underpowered (I don't think so) and if she is, she should be buffed in a way that keeps RE as it is now: a shield for the team that increases movespeed. She should NOT be reverted back to RE dealing damage.

When I play her now, she feels more like all her abilities have distinct purposes than before, and that's good.

SilverSquid2 votes

I respectfully disagree. Karma is not about power, but about having more tools. She was only good, because she had a lot of ways of approaching a situation.

RE in Lane

Could be used to waveclear a bigger area and even last hit under tower. If you managed to get close, it meant a huge shield and the full 60% ms, even when low. This was safe burst damage VS assasins. It was also your best defense against burst if you had high% of hp. That Karma players with good positioning could use to even counterattack at the same time. Alternatively, you could target a minion, to damage the enemy. If you were skilled, you would still get some of the shield and speed. Otherwise, you could damage mobile assasins with it, but gave up on all of your defensive qualities.

RE in Teamfights

Undoubtedly, this was the best teamfight option. If you could hit all enemies and all allies at the same time. Which never happened. As such you had to decide whether to shield your diving tank, deal massive damage, but leave your allies unprotected. Or speed up your whole team and mitigate some AoE damage. Or shield a carry that gets jumped by an assasin to give him mobility, a big shield and help get rid of the assasin (Karma doesn't have the CC to do that, so at least the damage helped)

In conclusion, RE made Karma's decision making incredibly rich. There never was a "right" or "wrong" useage of her mantra, but always some better or worse options. She is not a mechanically deep, so decision making is all she could build on. Essentially, she used to be a "knowledge-champion", that required one of the deepest understanding of the game. Which did fit her design. Hurt enemies, protect allies, at the same time.

After the changes RQ is not her "gamble" but her only option. In teamfights hitting all allies is all that RE can do. There is no cleverness involved, nothing to distinguish a good from a great Karma.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

In conclusion, RE made Karma's decision making incredibly rich.

Because a lot of the time it was her best option for waveclear, dueling, AND teamfights? why would you even mantra her other spells?

SilverSquid2 votes

RQ would deal over 50% more damage, if both parts hit... but only half as much, if not. Also it could gain you twice the passive procs. RW wouldn't push the lane during trades and was better at low hp (if no GV applied). The base damage at lvl1 was also slightly higher. RQ was necessary if you couldnt get close and enemies wouldn't stand next to your allies/minions (jungle, for example). Using RE also meant that you lost your mobility/defensive spell, which you couldn't always risk.

But you are right, RE was used all the time by experienced Karmas. That's why the removal hurt so much.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

RQ would deal over 50% more damage, if both parts hit... but only half as much, if not. Also it could gain you twice the passive procs. RW wouldn't push the lane during trades and was better at low hp (if no GV applied). The base damage at lvl1 was also slightly higher. RQ was necessary if you couldnt get close and enemies wouldn't stand next to your allies/minions (jungle, for example). Using RE also meant that you lost your mobility/defensive spell, which you couldn't always risk.

But you are right, RE was used all the time by experienced Karmas. That's why the removal hurt so much.

When a spell gets like that where it's better in most situations most of the time, people just learn how to use that spell and ignore the others since you can get 80% the effectiveness for 30% the effort. I don't like when stuff like that happens.

SilverSquid2 votes

It wasn't always the best. It depended a lot on your matchup and the situation. Against mages you would usually use RQ if they had zone control or you could hit your W, against melees it was RW for trades and RE or RQ for killing (depending on their mobility).

When a spell gets like that where it's better in most situations most of the time

This IS currently the case for RQ (especially in midlane). In lane RQ is suddenly the best option 90% of the time, when it used to be the best option 50% of the time.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't always the best. It depended a lot on your matchup and the situation. Against mages you would usually use RQ if they had zone control or you could hit your W, against melees it was RW for trades and RE or RQ for killing (depending on their mobility).

This IS currently the case for RQ (especially in midlane). In lane RQ is suddenly the best option 90% of the time, when it used to be the best option 50% of the time.

RQ SHOULD be the best in lane 90% of the time. It's your damage spell so you should empower it when you want more damage. RE being better for damage even 50% of the time is incredibly bizarre.

Also the concept of RE'ing yourself for a bunch of unavoidable damage is not very healthy for the game. Letting that stand would be like trying to make another champion into Annie where she gets into range and you're just dead.

SilverSquid2 votes

RQ SHOULD be the best in lane 90% of the time

Why? Why make a champion that's about versatility predictable? Why give someone three options, but make one clearly better than the other nearly all the time?

It's your damage spell so you should empower it when you want more damage.

It WAS your spell for most damage. Because it potentially gave you the MOST, if used propperly.

RE being better for damage even 50% of the time is incredibly bizarre.

->RQ<- was the best 50% of the time, not RE. As I said, using RE would push the lane, which is bad in any lane

Also the concept of RE'ing yourself for a bunch of unavoidable damage is not very healthy for the game.

It's short ranged. On a squishy mage. The extra shielding you got out of it was just 30/70/110/150+0.3AP. This is like one or two auto attacks from a mage. And it was on a 40s cooldown. Yes, it was good in lane, but as a downside Karma didn't get a powerspike at lvl6.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Why? Why make a champion that's about versatility predictable? Why give someone three options, but make one clearly better than the other nearly all the time?

Because I said IN LANE IN LANE is not the entire game.

->RQ<- was the best 50% of the time, not RE. As I said, using RE would push the lane, which is bad in any lane

and if empowering your damage spell was the best for damage in a situation when damage matters only 50% of the time, that means it was not the best 50% of the time, which is a ridiculous amount of time for a damage spell to be bad at damage.

SilverSquid2 votes

Because I said IN LANE IN LANE is not the entire game.

So you think it's good design to use one spell the first 15min of the game and the other the next 10min of the game? Even if you ALWAYS have 3 of them? Do you really think this increases "conextual decision making"? "Oh, I am in lane. Time to use RQ all the time!" Yay. Thank you Riot for rewarding my hard decision making!

Do you not think it would be better to make the Karma player evaluate every single situation carefully and THEN choose? Instead of having the game progress decide for them?

and if empowering your damage spell

it was not your "damage spell" it was your "spell that potentially dealt the most damage". But sometimes utility was more important, sometimes the defensive aspects were more important, sometimes you could afford the gamble, and sometimes not.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Do you really think this increases "conextual decision making"?

That's literally the definition of "contextual decision making"

The context is that she's in lane and wants to hurt her lane opponent, RQ

The context is that someone dived on her, RW

The context is that it's a team fight and her team needs to overtake the enemy, RE

Different contexts, different abilities.

SilverSquid2 votes

What is the more interesting contextual decision making then? "who am I up against, what are his mobility cooldowns, how low are my hp, do I need the added utility, can I gamble, do I need that base spell for something else,..."

Or

Protect me? RW Protect team? RE Else: RQ

No matter which one you prefer; Riot pretended that the second is contextually more challenging/rewarding, which is wrong. Either they lied or they made a mistake.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

What is the more interesting contextual decision making then? "who am I up against, what are his mobility cooldowns, how low are my hp, do I need the added utility, can I gamble, do I need that base spell for something else,..."

All those things still matter. Sometimes RQ is better in a team fight, sometimes RW is better in lane. RE's dominance in those situations before was weird and hurt versatility.

SilverSquid1 votes

All those things still matter

If you agree that RQ is best in lane 90% the time, then they don't even matter close to as much, as they did before.

RE's dominance in those situations before was weird and hurt versatility.

It was not dominant. I am starting to doubt you ever played Karma. Or comprehend what I am trying to tell you. Okay, I will put this very, very simply.

Before patch: Use a variety of the mantras all the time. After patch: Use RQ all the time in lane and RE all the time in teamfights.

Which one of those, I wonder, hurts versatility more? Can you guess it?

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Which one of those, I wonder, hurts versatility more? Can you guess it?

The first one, because like her old kit all her abilities just generally helped in an area and it didn't matter what you chose because it was all pretty much a wash. Your damage to enemies would be about the same, your aid to allies would be about the same, worrying about which ability you should use in a situation was more or less a waste of time since even the worst button is about 80% as effective.

SilverSquid1 votes

Decisions only feel impactful, if it's hard to find out which one is the best. If one spell could be 20% better and one could be 20% worse, those 20% can still decide over a kill or not.

If you know, just by being in lane, that one spell will be 150% effective and the other 50% effective, you don't feel good for choosing it. You don't feel like there was a choice at all. This is NOT decision making. The game makes it for you.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Decisions only feel impactful, if it's hard to find out which one is the best.

It's funny to me how wrong that is. Decisions feel impactful because they make an impact, the obscurity of the correct answer doesn't add much to it. That's why employees always include one awful option in the mix when they present to a higher-up for review so the higher-up can correctly identify the bad option and feel secure in his importance to the project. The prime example is the Queen's pet duck in Battle Chess.

There are still rare situations where you take the unusual choice from the standard to get an unexpected advantage, and their rarity actually makes them much more exciting. Firing a normal Q because the enemy doesn't realize your fiddlesticks is about to jump in and you'll both benefit much more from an RE in a couple seconds, using an RQ in the middle of a team fight because you recognize that you can get extra damage on a target of opportunity and take them out of the fight, which is more beneficial than speeding up your team in this instance.

The abilities have more impact when they have a narrowed focus on their roles, decisions are more meaningful when you recognize that a different role is more useful at this moment than it normally would be. Picking one damage spell over another is much less interesting even if that system makes the order you use your spells in appear more random without knowing the context.

SilverSquid1 votes

Okay, let's assume you get 3 weapons: A slingshot, a bow and a machine gun. You get presented with a variety of enemies you need to kill. Against 49 of the 50 enemies, the machine gun proofs to be the best, because it does the most damage. Against one of the enemies, you could use the bow to shoot over an obstacle in an arc. The slingshot only proofs useful, when you used all your ammo for the other weapons.

In the secong version, you get: A sniper rifle, an AK and a shotgun. For most of the enemies, the AK proofs flexible enough, to do the job, but against some enemies you struggle, until you use the sniper rifle, to eliminate slow enemies before they come in range. And again, in a few rounds, you switch to the shotgun, to suffer less damage from the enemies you are facing, as it just kills them faster in the narrow corridors.

Games are boring, when the choices are so obvious that you can't consider the others. Then it is NOT a choice. If things have ups and downs, it's a decision, not if one is superior 95% of the time.

Firing a normal Q because the enemy doesn't realize your fiddlesticks is about to jump in and you'll both benefit much more from an RE in a couple seconds

Just hit RQ anyways, slow the enemy for 50% and shield only fiddle, so he can CC. Way more damage. You didn't need the speedup anyways, if you are in range for RQ.

using an RQ in the middle of a team fight because you recognize that you can get extra damage on a target of opportunity

Happens only if you flank them or if they are bad. If you flank them you can't use RE anyways. If you flank them as a group RE is better, so your allies can secure the kill (you can not). If they are bad, it doesn't matter what you do. RE is still superior.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, let's assume you get 3 weapons:

It really annoys me when a support champion's tools are all weapons, they should have more varied tools than that.

Happens only if you flank them or if they are bad.

Players get caught out of position in team fights at all ELOs.

SilverSquid2 votes

It really annoys me when a support champion's tools are all weapons, they should have more varied tools than that.

Guess what: She was not designed as a support like Nami and Lulu, but as a midlaner like Lux and Orianna. You could just as well ask why all of Oriannas abilities deal damage....

Since you didn't adress my arguments concerning Karma, I assume you agree then? Which is great, because I need to go to bed anyways. If you still want to answer; see you tomorrow!

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Guess what: She was not designed as a support like Nami and Lulu, but as a midlaner like Lux and Orianna. You could just as well ask why all of Oriannas abilities deal damage....

Lux and Orianna who each have an ability who's primary purpose is to provide a shield to herself and/or allies.

SilverSquid1 votes

Lux and Orianna who each have an ability who's primary purpose is to provide a shield to herself and/or allies.

Yes, those two. Are you trying to make some kind of point? I fail to see it...

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, those two. Are you trying to make some kind of point? I fail to see it...

That mages designed primarily for solo lane still have room in their kit for abilities where their only effect is defensive.

IxtaliKing1 votes

No, it just meant she had a lot more ways to approach a situation whilst being balanced. Compared to now there were a lot more situations where RE was useful, same goes for RW too. On paper the changes did look cool and like they were just specialising her mantras, but in reality they have hurt her a lot. If it wasn't for those changes she'd be in a much better place in general.

Calabok1 votes

don't like her. she does not belong at mid. keep her at bot.

SilverSquid1 votes

She has a better winrate in mid and in top, than as a support. And Riot originally designed her as a mid, that could also work as a support.

However, I am curious; do you think playing her in mid is bad, or playing against her?

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