This is a champion that has almost no utility, doesn't duel particularly well anymore and has a poor ganking kit. Having the ability to clear camps 2 seconds faster than other champs is really not cutting it as an advantage at this point in the game. She keeps going through goofy nerfs because of things like Feral Flare and Devourer but Riot never seems to prop her back up once the item gets removed.
An Enemy Sutando37 votesIt's a case of Shyvana getting Sejuani'd over and over again.
She synergizes too well with on-hit items, so when they're strong, she herself is naturally also strong. When those items get nerfed/removed, she receives no compensation whatsoever. It's kinda dumb if you ask me.
Ralanr5 votesAs dumb as on hit Shyvana killing you while making you unable to run away?
A fed Shyvana is something I do not enjoy dealing with.
Knoyle13 votesYou 
can't 
get 
away 
from 
her, huh?
That 
must 
be
pretty 
horrible. 
I mean 
can 
you imagine 
a champion 
with 
mobility 
catching 
you? 
Sounds
like 
a
fucking
nightmare. 
EDIT: Added some champs I missed
SEKAI3 votesWhere are ?
Knoyle2 votesI try to think of lee as little as possible, I don't find Kat THAT sticky, I have barely played against Elise and forgot about her and I swear I thought I had ekko in there.
Ralanr2 votesMy only issue with 
is that once she gets 
and actually touches you, you're dead unless you can fight back. Yes this is a problem with a bunch of other champions also, but they usually have things you can dodge (like Ahri's charm) or are in bad places of balance for the same reason (Yi).
FutureCreator8 votesUnless you root her, or stun her, or knock her up, or not get in range, or slow her. But you're right you're dead, no way to stop this.
ForeverLaxx5 votesI'd knock up a Shyvana.
FutureCreator4 votesA form of CC so powerful it's illegal.
Captain Aishi3 votesshe's a melee champion, so at least you're given the option of fighting back... unlike kennen, gnar and such...
Wigglepufftuff8 votesAs a kassadin main, im triggered that you didn't put him in there ;-;
sir d wreck3 votesI'm amazed by the fact he didn't even need to.
Knoyle3 votesHe's one of the very few champs I never had a gripe with. Also there were so many others that people seem to have hated more.
LankPants5 votesThis is pretty much the prime reason why Riot needs to stop taking bronze and silver into consideration when balancing.
What lower elo's consider "dumb" is usually what they just haven't bothered to learn how to play around. Shyvana's a champion who can always be kited out of a fight and who can be hard shut down with a single CC.
Once you learn how to play against Shyvana she's abysmal.
Ralanr2 votesAnd to be frank, you're correct. But playing champions that aren't built to kite or have unreliable CC make it more frustrating to fight her. She's not alone in this however, I just dread a fed Shyvana in almost the same way I dread a fed Yi.
LankPants6 votesYou don't even need to be playing a champion with reliable CC or strong kiting to kite out a Shyvana. You can do it as any champ with a slow or a dash, which is something like 95% of the roster assuming you don't engage on her. As long as you force her to use her R to engage she's super easy to kite out, I could see someone like Mord struggling but past that she's really easy to kite as literally anyone.
Yi is basically a more extreme version of Shyvana, one hard CC and he's done. He's not even a threat for the most part. In every case there should be someone on your team who can shut down Yi, if there's not you failed in champ select and deserve what you get.
Ralanr1 votesHonestly I find slows to not be as effective when she as a speedup.
I'm not trying to say she's toxic or anything. I just don't like fighting Shyvana when she's fed and I personally find on hit playstyles to be unhealthy (just feels like stat checking to me).
LankPants6 votesActually slows are disproportionately effective against speed up targets.
If you start with 325 ms, adding a 50% speed boost brings you to 487.5, then slowing for 50% drops her to 243.75. There's some softcap that applies to that lower number, but it's still lower than the base. This is before mentioning that Shyvana's MS boost decays meaning if you can keep distance for the first second she probably won't have the MS to catch you, also if she doesn't AA you it only lasts 3 seconds, which shouldn't be long enough for her to close the distance even a moderate slow from something like a Ashe AA would open.
(just feels like stat checking to me).
There's far more options to play around Shyvana than there are to play around a meta jungler like Lee Sin or Elise TBH. As long as those champs don't fuck up there's nothing you could do to beat them. Shyvana just has so few options available to her at any given time that it's realistic to play around all of them. The same is true of most "stat check" champions.
Ralanr2 votesShyvana just has so few options available to her at any given time that it's realistic to play around all of them. The same is true of most "stat check" champions.
I'm reading this as, "Stat checking is healthy". Which I wouldn't agree with. Obviously you're always going to have some level of it, but an entire kit shouldn't be based around who has the bigger numbers and your opponents inability to outplay you.
LankPants4 votesStat checking is more healthy than the absurd kits with multiple options for every situation.
The problem with the game at present is that champions like Lee Sin, Elise, Fiora and Thresh are just given so many options that in the hands of a player who understands them they can respond to everything.
There is no correct play you can make into a Lee Sin, there's better and worse plays but ultimately he always has a play that beats your play. You cannot beat a Lee Sin using correct strategy if he plays well enough. This is far more destructive to the game than stat check champs.
Ralanr2 votesStat checking is more healthy than the absurd kits with multiple options for every situation.
...no it really isn't. Yes it is frustrating to deal with champions with those kits, but they do have room to actually fuck up their abilities and get outplayed. Obviously there should be a limit to what a champion's kit can offer, but in no way is a kit based entirely around having more stats that your opponent more healthy than a kit that can outplay and be outplayed.
The problem with the game at present is that champions like Lee Sin, Elise, Fiora and Thresh are just given so many options that in the hands of a player who understands them they can respond to everything.
And when faced against champions with similar strengths like that, it boils down to individual skill.
There is no correct play you can make into a Lee Sin, there's better and worse plays but ultimately he always has a play that beats your play. You cannot beat a Lee Sin using correct strategy if he plays well enough. This is far more destructive to the game than stat check champs.
Except that isn't true at all. Even if a Lee knows how to mechanically play the champion, he isn't a robot. He can make mistakes, mistakes that can be exploited. It's not easy to see this in champions like Lee sure, but in champions like Yasuo who have to play aggressive, it becomes painfully obvious.
Stat checking is not healthier than this. Stat checking revolves around having higher stats and hoping that your opponent lacks the tools to outplay you. If you fall behind on a stat checking champion, you're basically useless and unable to contribute much at all. I don't see how you find that healthy.
LankPants3 votesStat checking is not healthier than this. Stat checking revolves around having higher stats and hoping that your opponent lacks the tools to outplay you. If you fall behind on a stat checking champion, you're basically useless and unable to contribute much at all. I don't see how you find that healthy.
Replace tools with basic level of knowledge.
If statchecking worked the way you think it does you'd see high elo players, maybe even in pro games saying "their team is incredibly weak to Rammus, he'd be a great pick here". The fact that that never happens shows that isn't actually how it works.
You can counter every stat check champion in the game bar Tryndamere by just playing correctly around them, Tryndamere just requires you to win a majority of 70/30s in the early game which is a terrible design. Still every other champion like this you can beat by just understanding them, which is why they're practically nonexistent by high gold.
sirwaterfles2 votesProblem with the "mechanical" champs is that they can statcheck aswel. So you have to outplay both their play aswel as there statcheck. Examples; leesin misses q but still runs you down with his high base ms, fiora when she ults (dont think this needs more expanation), old tankekko,... Remember yasuo a few patches back? Sure he could make beautifull plays and 1v3 but he could just aswel compelety miss his tornado and his windwall and he would still kill 1 with just aa and e.
Stat checking is not healthier than this. Stat checking revolves around having higher stats and hoping that your opponent lacks the tools to outplay you. If you fall behind on a stat checking champion, you're basically useless and unable to contribute much at all. I don't see how you find that healthy.
Stat checking champs have way less tools to fall backto if shit goes wrong so its more when and where to fight than the actual fight itself and i dont know if that is such a bad thing. It rewards macro play a lot more. Arent overextending without wards or lettng a nassus ffreefarm just as bad a mistakes as missing a mechanial ability? I played mundo vs morderkaiser the other day. Pre 9 i get desroyed in that matchup after 11 i destroy him (ofcourse snowballing one way or the other not withstanding) and i had a lot of fun trying to not fall to far behind vs him doing everything he can to put me in the durt. Now even with the fact that he would clearly win the statcheck pre lvl 9 i can still play around his cooldown and jungle to keep in there. And is it really that diferent from lets say vayne vs lucian?
in conclusion; yeah pure statcheck is bad(garen, yi) but that doenst make statcheck a bad design by default. A statcheck champion with a few abilites is often better than an overloaded kit because the champ with the overloaded kit will often end up statchecking aswel
Ralanr1 votesObviously extremes are poor designs. I'm trying to say that pure stat checking designs (which is how I personally view Shyvana) are unhealthy for the game, more so than even pure mechanical designs (though pure mechanical designs are unhealthy as well).
Stat checking in it of itself in unavoidable. That's basically what happens when auto attacks meet resistance. But we shouldn't encourage or even praise high stat check designs as they're just honestly bad.
sirwaterfles1 votesI admit she is really statchecky but i dont think to the degree that she needs to be garbage until reworked (hello garen and im sad that i cant place yi here anymore). She was op because her hugeclearspeed got her tons of exp early but now the exp is lowered i think the can get her fast clear back.
Dont think that high stat check designs are that bad. I love swain. Statchecking is a huge part of his design. But there is so much more to him. And i rather have another swain than another azir or kalista or cammille just because we have to find as much nonstatchecking mechanincs as they can .
Ralanr2 votesI never said she should be garbage. Just that I have my own personal issues towards her design and don't mind her being underpowered.
She should be brought in line, despite how much I'd dislike seeing her more often.
Aimléss1 votesShyvanna is not bad, her jungle clear is ridiculous. If she clears that hard and gets a couple kills, it's over for the enemy team if they can't cc her. This champion has the best clear speeds, so she is going to consistently have items every game, and her sticking power combined with the burst she can have when fed is boderline unhealthy. Of course, when not fed she isn't anything special, but so are most non-utility champions 
LankPants3 votesShyvana's jungle clear hasn't been good since Riot removed her bonus damage to creeps. As it stands she's a couple of seconds quicker than Lee Sin but she loses all of her HP clearing.
She's also far from the fastest jungler in the game, she hasn't been that since S2. I think the absolute fastest jungler in the game is Akali with her E spam and the fastest real jungler is either Phoenix Udyr or Dr. Mundo. Diana, Eve, Yi, Kha'zix, Hecarim and Graves all also clear faster than her.
Her clear speed at this point is above average.
TwitchInMyPants2 votes[{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HZmjRJ7I,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-06T05:00:56.904+0000)
It's a case of Shyvana getting Sejuani'd over and over again.
She synergizes too well with on-hit items, so when they're strong, she herself is naturally also strong. When those items get nerfed/removed, she receives no compensation whatsoever. It's kinda dumb if you ask me.
She scales similarly to Master Yi though yet he never gets nerfed. I know she has defense steroids all the time and he only has it on W but her damage is mixed, she should be better than Yi early-midgame and not put on the same power scale but flat out inferior.
Hello I am Bird23 votesCan we change her fucking passive It's honest to god such a terrible passive, even when it's good, it doesn't feel good.
Ysayle11 votesI miss being able to play her top :(
Blåbæret8 votesShyvana's ganks are pure garbage, her clear is isn't that good anymore after the W nerfs either. She needs some sort of small buff.
Tusutaki6 votesI think they just need to readjust her Passive and Flame Breath marks. Her passive is literally nonexistent as it heavily relies on getting drag and the nerf to Flame Breath's projectile speed made her too risky to play. The change to her ult is a nice direction though. Would honestly like to see her ult give her Tenacity when in dragon form to help against the high mobility creep. If anything, Garen is a better version of her in almost every way.
As far as her passive and Flame Breath, im just going to write it out as a skill because it would be easier for me to explain.
Passive: Fury of the Dragonborn Shyvana's basic attacks deals an additional 1.25% of the target's maximum HP as bonus magic damage. This damage is doubled against Epic monsters Gain 5/10/15/20% cooldown reduction at levels 1/6/11/16
And for Flame Breath.
Flame Breath MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 30% AP) ACTIVE: Shyvana unleashes a fireball that travels in a line, dealing magic damage to all enemies hit. The fireball stops upon colliding with an enemy champion, marking them for 5 seconds and applying Grievous Wounds. Shyvana's basic attacks against marked enemies deals 1.25% of target's maximum HP as bonus magic damage and heals for half of the total damage dealt. Healing is halved against Minions and small monsters.
Immaculate Rhea2 votesI agree with the idea of the passive change, but perhaps E's mark can do something different. Maybe when enemies marked are hit, the mark reignites and burns the enemy for 50% of the initial base damage for 2 seconds (30, 50, 70, 90, 110). Just a thought
Captain Aishi3 votesI really like that idea, a limited window where she has sustain to maybe allow her to decently lane again against all the damn poke there is in the game nowadays
Fuh Queue3 votesI'm pretty excited to have this discussion. Shyv is one of my favorite champions but I can also see the many areas she's lacking.
I feel her passive is essentially a different form of Warwick's blood hunt ability. It's a constant "hey, there's something on the map you should be doing right now". Her passive is like a voice in your head reminding you that your JOB is dragon control at all costs. For that reason I think her passive helps new jungle players to focus on controlling the dragon. But, that leaves much to be desired. The reward she gets from perfectly securing dragons isnt worth it and the penalty for having a bad game is crushing. I'd like to see her passive reworked into something that actually helps her throughout the game even if she's not securing every single dragon on spawn.
Another problem I have with her is how predictable she is. Once she presses W you know she's just going to run at you and hope she kills you before she has no way of catching you anymore. Anyone with mobility can kite her into oblivion.
I love the concept she brings to the table as a half dragon badass, but her usefulness comes solely from getting fed and stat checking until the game is over. She offers very little in terms of outplay potential.
CarameI Frappe3 votesShyvana needs a rework and please a visual update on her dragon form- it's ugly compared to her other skins lol
Immaculate Rhea2 votesShe needs a VO update as well, to go along with her lore and existing champions, skins and whatnot
junglerboy163 votesThe only good way to play her right now is to snowball fast and try to get a guinsoo's or Botrk + Titanic into full tank.
If you can't get fed enough to get both of those offensive items and still out tank your opponents, you're stuck, because she doesn't have enough tools in her kit to be useful without damage, but not enough durability to build damage without blowing up or snowballing first.
PapaGreg213 votesExactly, when the gameplan is you need to get ahead of everybody else in gold throughout the game, and breaking even means you are in trouble, that means there are issues with balance.
Need Gold 4 Tent3 votesi thought something was strange. i heard about her "strong dueling" and lost pretty much every single invade attempt 1v1 that I tried, the only ones that I won were with laner intervention which doesn't count. The level 4 dragon with an incomplete jungle item is great, although I've done it with Udyr as well anyway
PapaGreg213 votesShe used to have really strong dueling but they nerfed her Q back in the devourer era and she hasn't really been able to put out much damage since at level 1-5. Most people that think she is strong early have not played her lately
ForFoxSakes2 votesTake 
+
and you'll never lose duels unless you screwed up super hard
Need Gold 4 Tent3 votesthat leaves you defenseless for the inevitable top/mid cornering though. besides, the fact that you have to waste a summoner slot for a combat summoner just to win says something, when the other junglers can win without it.
put it this way, if you can take exhaust, so can they. and for a champ with limited gap closing while being a full melee, i am quite uncomfortable not taking ghost or flash. that being said, i'm no shyv main so maybe i was just outplayed.
ForFoxSakes2 votesOnce you're 6 you basically have a free gap closer and escape. You see it as a downside that Shyv needs exhaust. I see it as a benefit that she doesnt need to be gimped by taking flash or ghost
A lot of champs cant get away with not having one of those movement summs safely while shyv gets a free ghost with W and almost a free flash with R that's on super short CD.
On top of that since people are crying about crap ganks on Shyv, exh gives her strong ganks when the other champ must flash or die while not being able to fight back
R is more about empowering her abilities rather than a must use for gapclosing
Segius2 votesI agree, she needs a buff to either her Ult or her passive
Immaculate Rhea4 votesHer passive is the main thing that needs a buff
Segius3 votesyeah, you have to get every single drake and then only get a tiny bit of armor and MR
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesHer base form is a bit too weak atm I agree but her ult is stronger than ever. That Flame Breath is insane.
AlienPrimate10 votesThat flame breath when you build 
