Does Teemo not count as an Assassin? There seems to be a lot of champions that are missing from the list. Where do champions like Nocturne, Riven, Irelia, Lee Sin, Vi, and Vayne fit into this picture? Are these champions too overlapping with another role to be considered for the Assassin rework? Why is Ekko on the Assassin rework when his kit actually seems less Assassin-like than many of the other champions previously listed?
Best Ekko NA2 votesHonestly the thing that bugs me the most is how they aren't giving Teemo the Camouflage passive. If ANY champion in the entire game should have that passive, it would be Teemo, as that is literally like his core identity to the game... His whole game play design is to hide, ambush people, bait them into mushrooms, and cause them to bleed from poison and die.
I really feel like perhaps Riot just didn't think this rework through completely yet.
Brain Errör 4041 votesI'm pretty sure they said that teemo is one of the exceptions of actually getting the camouflage passive...
I mean, it said so in the rework guide that pink wards will NOT spot teemo.
Best Ekko NA2 votes[{quoted}](name=Media TM,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HRIgE0EJ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-10-19T08:16:37.158+0000)
I'm pretty sure they said that teemo is one of the exceptions of actually getting the camouflage passive...
I mean, it said so in the rework guide that pink wards will NOT spot teemo.
Right now they would have Teemo's passive listed under "Invisibility" category. The Irony of that is that Teemo's passive is literally named "Camouflage" and it's clearly intended to be a camouflage style skill as they recently gave him the ability to move around freely in bushes without disabling it. If they plan on giving Rengar and Twitch the "Camouflage" then they can't just ignore Teemo as he's in worse shape than at least one of those two champions by current statistics (Twitch) and could use the permanent stealth passive much more than either Twitch or Rengar.
Brain Errör 4041 votesSorry, I was getting invisibility and camouflage confused.
Also, you seem to be on the right track and then got confused at the end of it as well. Invisibility means pink wards will NOT spot you, camouflage means that it WILL spot you. Twitch/Rengar and Eve will all be spotted by pink wards.
"Meddler (NA) - 14 days ago
Teemo passive will still grant invisibility. It is a longer duration, strategic effect, but it would generally just fail to function if proximity revealed Teemo. It's an exception to the usual guidelines as a result."
Best Ekko NA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Media TM,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HRIgE0EJ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-19T08:48:33.588+0000)
Sorry, I was getting invisibility and camouflage confused.
Also, you seem to be on the right track and then got confused at the end of it as well. Invisibility means pink wards will NOT spot you, camouflage means that it WILL spot you. Twitch/Rengar and Eve will all be spotted by pink wards.
"Meddler (NA) - 14 days ago
Teemo passive will still grant invisibility. It is a longer duration, strategic effect, but it would generally just fail to function if proximity revealed Teemo. It's an exception to the usual guidelines as a result."
Actually this makes a lot of sense considering Teemo's short range. If he was more like Evelynn and perma stealthed when not attacking I really do fail to see how that would cause the function of the passive to fail on him.
[{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HRIgE0EJ,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-19T08:51:14.266+0000)
But... Camouflage is just worse than Invisibility, isn't it?
Yes it's worse because you can be spotted from a distance however the point is that Camouflage is supposed to be a long duration effect. I guess what I'm proposing would be to simply make Teemo like Evelynn and just have him ALWAYS Camo'd (regardless of if he's in a bush or not) unless he is attacking something.
Nik Nikerson1 votesBut... Camouflage is just worse than Invisibility, isn't it?
Demon King Maou1 votesReal question though is Why did they do such a poor job at reworking talon and rengar? give them a week on live servers and you'll see the boards filled with "WOW RITO PLS WORFJSVMADKZFMAMSD"
SoundChaosDebug1 votesFunny thing is rengar and talon are both disabled on PBE at the moment.
Demon King Maou1 votesFunny thing is rengar and talon are both disabled on PBE at the moment.
Figures :P
ThugWalrus1 voteshttp://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list
Riot's sub-class list
Irelia, Vi, Lee sin and Noc are divers. Riven is a skirmisher. Teemo is a marksmen / disrupter. Vayne is a marksmen.
Best Ekko NA2 voteshttp://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list
Riot's sub-class list
Irelia, Vi, Lee sin and Noc are divers. Riven is a skirmisher. Teemo is a marksmen / disrupter. Vayne is a marksmen.
Ahh I didn't realize this list was here.
Still I feel like they can't blindly follow these ideals, let's face it.. champions like Teemo fit MANY categories and to say that he isn't a "stealth / assassin" style champion would be like trying to convince someone that Cho'Gath is a marksman because he has a ranged attack from his Vorpal Spikes.
I also would have to say that in this case, they didn't follow their own list because Ekko was included in the Assassin rework despite being a Skirmisher himself.
ThugWalrus2 votesI don't know. Teemo CAN assassinate people, but I wouldn't say that is his primary playstyle. He is more about dragging people around slowing draining their life through sustained DPS, while Assassins are all about bursting a target down quickly and getting out. Invisibility does not make an assassin, although it is a trait often found on assassins. I mean if they did a tank rework and included Yasuo, that wouldn't really make sense even though Yas CAN be built as a tank, it just isn't his primary role.
Best Ekko NA1 votesI don't know. Teemo CAN assassinate people, but I wouldn't say that is his primary playstyle. He is more about dragging people around slowing draining their life through sustained DPS, while Assassins are all about bursting a target down quickly and getting out. Invisibility does not make an assassin, although it is a trait often found on assassins. I mean if they did a tank rework and included Yasuo, that wouldn't really make sense even though Yas CAN be built as a tank, it just isn't his primary role.
I think Teemo's play style is just confused as he's not a viable pick nor has he been for some fairly long period of time. When someone plays Teemo they will play only the way he'll be useful and not the way his kit is intended. Riot has already made a pretty half-ass attempt at patching this problem up when they gave him a slight update, but it didn't accomplish much as he's still not up to par with any role on the map. If Riot intended for Teemo to be played with the "kite enemies around and pray I can survive" style then he wouldn't need his stealth passive much at all. His kit is designed to hide somewhere and then instantly surprise and destroy his enemy similar to how Shaco functions.
ThugWalrus1 votesI would disagree, but then again I'm no Teemo expert. Regardless though, I think the case would be hard to make that he is a true "assassin," even if I did concede he has some assassin-esque qualities. As such, if Riot truly felt he needed an update, I think they would just give him his own update and not lump him into a class. Teemo suffers in that his kit is basically a meme, but it is toxic enough that buffing it can put it over the edge. Riot won't really do a major overhaul of Teemo's kit because the community backlash would be too severe, but buffing his current kit is tricky because it can easily be sent over the edge to oppressive and anti-fun.
zrWQMdGHtY1 votesI wonder more why are zed, fizz and akali getting such major buffs and Kata gets a major gut on her skill level and kit...
Talinis1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kitty Katarina,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HRIgE0EJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-10-19T08:07:18.394+0000)
I wonder more why are zed, fizz and akali getting such major buffs and Kata gets a major gut on her skill level and kit...
Fizz is getting MASSIVE nerfs. He will take twice as long to do only 75% of the damage he used to do. The numbers have already been mathed out. the 20% amp removal alone with no compensation to the rest of his kit puts the nail in the coffin of any viable AP build. his W was just reworked to have it all be on a delay, while 1 Q + 2 autos (which took less than 2 seconds) was more upfront damage and outpaced current PBE iteration in damage. E and Q losing damage because no amp from R. R is losing damage unless it's max range and his W dot damage is cut in half. His mana costs in lane actually went up laughably as riot can't even do math. Especially want to improve his lane phase when he is behind must have been code for more nerfs as his W (40 mana cost) could clear the whole wave and now level 1 W costs 45 mana to just clear 3 casters, never mind the rest of the wave and level 5 it costs 105 to kill those same casters.
His W mana cost isn't even the problem in lane, it's that his passive is designed for a top lane (weave in and poke and take less damage in return) whereas it does nothing vs spells and champions that sit far out of the wave and just zone you all day. His only tool dealing with that is a long CD/high mana cost ability with no shielding/sustain or tankiness of any kind. If he is going to be mid lane, then he needs tools to deal with enemies trying to zone him under his own tower by spamming low cost abilties. Right now the only response is ALL in and kill them or I auto lose lane since Fizz spends half his mana pool on 1 combo. And riot did nothing to address and give him "additional options" in lane, they actually made it worse. Riot is proving they are just throwing random numbers around and doing random shit hoping it works. They literally have no clue what they are doing.
Let's not get into how they expect Fizz to sit in melee for 2 seconds as AP build (AP items DO NOT support sitting in melee which is the main reason AP melees are going tank builds) until he can proc his damage and how riot expects Fizz to hit a max range shark with one of the slowest missiles in the game. It's well known among fizz players the only way to hit sharks is to Q + shark as anyone above low elo blocks it, dodges it, outruns it, or simply step sides it and if it's less than max range, it's massively nerfed.
Riot's comments 1 week before PBE patch and what actually happened
Riot wanted to improve his laning phase by.... nerfing it??
Riot wanted to move damage from his E to elsewhere on the kit by... not moving it????
Riot wanted to showcase fizz's initiation power by.... nerfing his initiation and only making the shark slightly stronger if he hits the mythical max range shark on carry while nerfing the rest of the follow up damage????
Riot wanted to make Fizz the hardest to peel assassin above all other assassins by... doing absolutely nothing to his average in class mobility while nerfing the R slow unless max range???????
Riot wanted to make fizz play with his food by.... having him just stand in melee poking with base damage autos for 2 seconds until he can do the same damage with W he does on live in that same time period with the same ability?????????????????
Riot stating that if they were to rework fizz his current kill period of 1.5 seconds with shark, 1 second E, 3 second dot and autos was enough of a kill period (they wanted kill window .75 - 1 second) and would instead work on other issues and by other issues they mean........ increasing his kill window to 2 seconds on shark and 2 seconds for any W damage and 4 seconds on dot while an ADC late game kills you in .5 with 2 autos??????????????????????????????????
Not one thing they have stated prior to the PBE update was even remotely true and points to a rushed and ignorant job. With all the updates that's happened to fizz over the years and not a single one hits the mark on how to fix fizz properly. It is 100% evident no one on the team plays fizz and knows how he actually works. They continually change him so that AD tank builds are continually more attractive than AP. With 200% certainty there is no AP build that will come close to getting him above 40% win rate on live currently.
The kit needs more tools then just damage. If riot insists on keeping just damage on a pure squish melee champion with no resets then the damage needs to be through the roof and unparalleled among any assassins, basically instant deletion because he has no ability to poke people down. He needs 100 - 0 in less than a second. They want to widen kill times then they need to add massive tools for to his ability to survive, which could include E resets, having Q be a skill shot so you can use it as an escape, or possibly just halve their CDS so you can jump in and out of combat. Maybe lose a lot of sharks damage and have it be more of a slow/knock up tool and put the CD super low so he can use it as a poke ability for sieges since he has literally zero ability to siege which is a huge portion of the game. Part of me hopes they don't change anything so when he gets patched to live, Riot can realize how woefully ignorant they are when he hits sub 30% win rate levels outside of pure tank builds. They took away like 35% of his damage and gave 15% of it back on extreme conditions (2 seconds to live in melee or the mythical max range shark) while giving him NOTHING else.
TLDR: I was ready today to give constructive feedback. Based on what Riot had initially said, it sounded like they were moving in the right direction with him. But then pull a 180 and do the opposite of what they said, do not fix any issues, remove half of his kit and then give a portion of it back with unrealistic conditions. Fizz needs to be pulled from the update, put in the workshop and redone. This is not PBE material, there is nothing to even test or discuss. The changes are absolute garbage.