Fiddlesticks is a stupid design

Tychusfindlay918·Jul 1, 2018·42 votes·13,830 views

The sheer lack of skill expression throughout all of his basic spells is incredibly telling. Getting a good ult off is basically this champion's only skill hurdle. He's stupidly fucking effective at pressing Q to stop any diver and allow his team to just instakill them.

Watching this little shit in high elo and occasionally even in pro just run around and terrifying everything for free disengages/kills is dumb. Is he overpowered? I don't necessarily think so, but if there's a champion that needed a rework more than aatrox fiddles certainly is one. Him being viable and even meta is fucking annoying.

76 Comments

IcyPepperJul 1, 201833 votes

He's old. That's the problem.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 1, 20182 votes

He was one of my original faves. I will be as excited for his rework as I was for Taric and Swain

IcyPepperJul 2, 20181 votes

What do you think it'll be like? The crows are definitely staying, and his ultimate likely will, but I can see them changing up the fear mechanic (maybe like Darius?) and incorporating his weapon a bit more (I constantly forget he even has a scythe tbh). The drain might go as a spell and sustain be incorporated into his kit, making him something like a mage version of Warwick? Maybe he'll become some kind of battlemage?

I don't know. I just want him to be terrifying. I want his rework to give me nightmares. The good shit.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 2, 20181 votes

I have no clue, tbh...

I do agree that I want to see more scythe. The magic is cool, but magical scythes are cool, too, and he's kind of got that space occupied, so let's see him use it.

I wouldn't be super opposed to him getting a new ult, but he doesn't need it necessarily. It's iconic, and I think his ult is relatively healthy tbh.

Completely agree that Drain has to go, but I feel just as strongly about Dark Wind. It's a point n' click silence that can hit multiple targets. And because of the bounce, you don't even have to be in range of it to get hit. It's seriously one of the worst designed abilities in this game; probably wasn't obvious at the time, but it sure as hell is now.

The craziest thing I'd like to see is for him to actually have scarecrows he can put on the map that he and enemies can interact with. I had a rework concept for him here that tried to make that a thing... there are problems with it, potentially, but there was great discussion in the comments.

IcyPepperJul 2, 20181 votes

I kinda can see him becoming a melee battlemage with crows as his main ranged attack. Instead of a silence, maybe it's a channeled aoe cone that slows? Kinda like in the cinematic (well, TF was knocked back IIRC but do we really need more knockbacks at this point?). Maybe make his Q kinda like Riven's but no hops and on the third cast it fears (with less duration) rather than knockup?

I'd really like to see Riot try their hand at this. Sure, not all of their reworks hit the mark, but after Warwick I have high hopes they could nail a champion that was supposed to be terrifying like Fiddlesticks.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 2, 20181 votes

Ooh... cone of crows... wait a sec, I know an ability that does this from another game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPl5JernKSM

Yep. We need that.

IcyPepperJul 2, 20181 votes

clicks play

"Hey guys-"

lol nope

but ahhhh I miss that game

ModKnightsKemplarJul 2, 20181 votes

lol I searched all of 30 seconds to try to find an inoffensive firebats video.

I failed.

KICK OUT AT 2Jul 1, 201815 votes

Not every champion has to be a montage machine. Fiddle's Q is a great counter to mobility cancer.

ArakadiaJul 1, 20183 votes

It's also a great cancer spell against immobile enemies.

And can't be avoided.

BârdJul 1, 20186 votes

It also has 575 range, and is on Fiddlesticks.

item 3140 the fear and instagib that fool. Buy item 3111 Buy item 3814 item 3102 Run Legend: Tenacity.

Hell, if your frontliners buy item 3194 Fiddle won't be able to deal much damage to them.

ArakadiaJul 1, 20182 votes

That doesnt change the fact there is no avoiding the long duration fear.

575 is actually pretty dang good range.

rtbf221651412Jul 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

That doesnt change the fact there is no avoiding the long duration fear.

item 3140 item 3102

Wut?

ArakadiaJul 1, 20181 votes

You can't dodge it. Even with QSS you'll still get feared.

Counterplay is important. Right now his fear has literally nothing but counter itemization.

rtbf221651412Jul 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Blah blah blah doesn't account runes, doesn't understand items, and how runes can affect item cdr

Fixed.

Malzahar Olaf Garen Gangplank summoner 1

Shall we continue?

ArakadiaJul 2, 20181 votes

That's not counterplay that's counterpicking.

Fiddle Q has no counterplay other than playing around the cooldown (which isn't enough).

rtbf221651412Jul 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That's not counterplay that's counterpicking.

Fiddle Q has no counterplay other than playing around the cooldown (which isn't enough).

Cleanse is counter picking?

Runes are counter picking?

Are you blind?

And you said there is no way except items. I showed you otherwise.

{quoted}

You can't dodge it. Even with QSS you'll still get feared.

Counterplay is important. Right now his fear has** literally nothing but counter itemization**.

IcyPepperJul 1, 20183 votes

Long duration?

1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 seconds

Hexs FortuneJul 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Long duration?

ekko's W stun is 1.75 and that's already powerful.

2.25 is an eternity

IcyPepperJul 2, 20181 votes

Ekko's kit is also fundamentally different than Fiddlestick's, considering he's a burst assassin and half of Fiddlestick's kit is a channel. I'm not going to compare their individual spells in a vacuum.

Hexs FortuneJul 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ekko's kit is also fundamentally different than Fiddlestick's, considering he's a burst assassin and half of Fiddlestick's kit is a channel. I'm not going to compare their individual spells in a vacuum.

You were doing just that with fiddles, highlighting the duration of his Q with no other context.

rayzoJul 1, 20181 votes

Not to mention it hardcounters Yi.

TheCodeisCupCakeJul 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Freeze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HP1ofwa1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-01T04:51:12.656+0000)

Not every champion has to be a montage machine. Fiddle's Q is a great counter to mobility cancer.

Thats not the point. The point is a newcomer can be placed in Diamond, and mash his buttons and still have amazing impact. His silence seeks champions. So a third timer will press it and still impact the fight in a massive way

SociopathFriendJul 1, 20183 votes

His silence does no such thing- it not 'seek' champions out anymore than it does minions. It bounces but does not have champion priority.

hhaavviikkJul 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Freeze,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HP1ofwa1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-01T04:51:12.656+0000)

Not every champion has to be a montage machine. Fiddle's Q is a great counter to mobility cancer.

it's a great counter to everything, years ago fiddle support was used bot, not to ''counter mobility'' but because he could Q the enemy ADC instantly and there was nothing they could do about it.

ShonjlJul 1, 20188 votes

I personally don't think every champ has to have 50 dashes or an answer to every situation button or 5 passive in their kit. Nothing wrong with keeping a simplistic kit.

He has plenty of counterplay. Its called kill him. He fears you and that's all he has or dies. Fiddle is a champ you get mercs no questions asked just like if a viegar or morgana or Maokai is in a game. Half the time I just keep chasing him after the like 1 second fear and kill him anyways. If he tries drain tanking you. Cc him or burst. If you can't why are you chasing him?

This game has enough Yasuos and Camilles and Irelias which have an answer to everything. Start figuring out the answer to fiddle instead of crying. God forbid he shows up in a fee games when he hasn't existed in ages.

AvisPraedaJul 2, 20182 votes

This exactly.

He doesn't have an answer to everything like the overloaded kits that have appeared since s3. Fiddlesticks can do nothing to escape most champions of he mispositions. His extreme frailty also means that if he's focused, he dies instantly - not to mention that in League of Burst and Mobility,Fid really can't survive when people start paying attention to him.

Everyone's mobile enough to avoid his drain, or can burst/ignite him fast enough to straight up kill him. I don't know what people are whining about when he's not a fantastic duelist and his teamfighting is entirely reliant on how good his positioning is. If he's fearing one of the divers away, that means he isn't ulting onto your team.

Honestly, I think it's harder to play champs like fiddle because they're so predictable and no frills. They don't have all the cute and fancy CertainlyT buttons to press.

DoktorKaiserJul 1, 20188 votes

While I agree that Fiddle is braindead, thank god that he exists so that even more braindead "high skillcap champs" aka press 3 buttons to delete everyone - assassins, assassin-built regular champs and melee carries can get fucked, GET FUCKED YOU AND YOUR 53 MOBILITY SPELLS !!!

Tychusfindlay918Jul 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

While I agree that Fiddle is braindead, thank god that he exists so that even more braindead "high skillcap champs" aka press 3 buttons to delete everyone - assassins, assassin-built regular champs and melee carries can get fucked, GET FUCKED YOU AND YOUR 53 MOBILITY SPELLS !!!

But really the champions that get fucked the most are immobile melees who have zero options to respond to him.

Assassins, especially AD, will have much easier access to things like edge of night or merc scimitar which they can fit comfortably into their builds.

DoktorKaiserJul 1, 20182 votes

Oh well I would have to say that Fiddle is the necessary evil.

rtbf221651412Jul 1, 20188 votes

Fearing an ulting Master Yi? Watch him run.

Silencing an entire team of spellcasters? Man, their autos hurt. (Kappa)

Ulting without item 3157 ? Man, I wonder what I should do while I can move and get a rune that increases my movement speed while ulting. At the same time having item 3116 .

He's brittle as hell. If you and your team are not focusing a cc heavy champion, that is your and your teams problem.

Agent CorgiJul 1, 20186 votes

Fiddle has been around for ages. His Kit was ok back then but now things are different.

GamèrJul 1, 20186 votes

I like Fiddlesticks and in my opinion, no bias :3, he is a great champion. Thought Fiddle has a lot of CC in his kit, he is quite weak to it himself. He is incredibly squishy and requires team coordination in order to do good. He's good at stopping fights but it's on a high cooldown and you can just pop him if he is in the front line to fear someone.

º Kindred ºJul 1, 20184 votes

fuck finally someone who mentions it man. i swear to god he is so fucking annoying with his stupid fear and point and click infinity range bird with silence on it that also bounces of 5-6 enemies/minions AND a stupid poke with extremely low cd. i hope they rework him asap.

rtbf221651412Jul 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=º Kindred º,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HP1ofwa1,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-07-01T13:55:40.922+0000)

fuck finally someone who mentions it man. i swear to god he is so fucking annoying with his stupid fear and point and click infinity range bird with silence on it that also bounces of 5-6 enemies/minions AND a stupid poke with extremely low cd. i hope they rework him asap.

But most people build item 3098 on him anyway so he takes farm and hurts his gold income.

Meanwhile I build item 3302 so I can actually poke without consequence.

EA14Jul 1, 20184 votes

The only part i despise about him is how ridiculously long his fear is.

Daddy AntsJul 1, 20183 votes

He needs some skill shots in his kit.

MYSTlCFLOWJul 1, 20183 votes

DONT REWORK MY FIDDLE

Summonah12369Jul 1, 20183 votes

I just hate how stupidly long his fear lasts for.

SugeMinPikkJul 2, 20183 votes

It's almost as if Fiddlesticks is a 9-year-old champion or something...

Doctor DymentJul 1, 20182 votes

He's old as his model is terrible. His kit was kind of just a standard one back in the day, but now he is either way too counter-able or not good in the slightest. He just needs a rework really.

Despìca BìllJul 1, 20182 votes

Most of the champs he's good against are equally brain dead. There are maybe four or five champs in the whole game that actually take a significant amount of skill to play. Everyone else, it's positioning, timing, and reflexes.

Is he annoying? Absolutely. Is the guy who picks Talon/Zed/Kat every game annoying? ...not any more. X)

DuskDaUmbreonJul 1, 20182 votes

Honestly? Playing into Katarina/Talon is less annoying.

I know she'll be significantly less useful. I can usefully predict what they're going to do and respond to it. I can dodge their poke, and poke them back.

Fiddle? I can predict him super easily. The problem is it's basically impossible to predict anything in time. His poke hits me from outside even fucking Xerath's abilities (sans ult, of course), and silences me so I can't react to the ult that's incoming. I can try to all-in, but unless I instantly (as in, before he's physically capable of reacting) 100-0 him, it's just a fear>drain, and then I have to break the chain or I can't kill him because his drain>my damage.

Talon? Dodge his W, have CC for his level 2 engage. Expect him to dash right at you sometime after 6, CC him, kill him.

Despìca BìllJul 2, 20181 votes

Then it sounds like this is simply another personal preference, rather than something actually wrong with the champ. You don't like him because he's effective at what he does. Understandable, but not even approximately objective.

KairoptraJul 1, 20182 votes

Well, he is one of the top-tier VGU contenders.

{quoted}

I would say the current pool after Akali/Irelia are

These are the ones we generally discuss talk about these days when we go into early ideation on new VGUs. Some more then others, but all of these would make sense at this point, for various reasons. Obviously Kayle would be paired with a Morgana, should we end up working on her.

LeveretteJul 1, 20182 votes

Honestly I'd say his Q and his R are the only things I think should stay about him. I get that having to deal with reliable hard CC is difficult, but League has been spiraling into a downward trend where hard CC is more and more tied to skillshots and it's making hypermobile characters impossible to deal with. I would rather a few champions keep their point and click guaranteed hard CC moves and have to think up ways around that problem than have a bunch of warpspeed monsters running around that don't even give you time to think before your screen is grey.

Daddy AntsJul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I'd say his Q and his R are the only things I think should stay about him. I get that having to deal with reliable hard CC is difficult, but League has been spiraling into a downward trend where hard CC is more and more tied to skillshots and it's making hypermobile characters impossible to deal with. I would rather a few champions keep their point and click guaranteed hard CC moves and have to think up ways around that problem than have a bunch of warpspeed monsters running around that don't even give you time to think before your screen is grey.

Q needs to be a skillshot.

R needs some counterplay to it.

He should be locked out of his basic spells while ulting.

LeveretteJul 1, 20184 votes

On what basis do you claim any of these things? All you're saying is that he needs to suck even more than he already does.

R needs counterplay? Yeah, CC him during his 1.5s long channel time and he loses the whole ultimate. Or you could always just kill him, because you know, he's kinda Fiddlesticks.

Q needs to be a skillshot? Why? Who determines these things? Master Yi mains? Let me ask you this. If every bit of CC in the game was avoidable, what would stop everyone from just running a team of all hypercarries every game? Have you ever tried hitting an ulting Vayne with a Taric stun? It's not happening.

If you think every single move in the game should be a skillshot, why don't you just go play Bloodline Champions instead, where every move is a skillshot? Okay well to be fair you can't do that because the game fell flat and isn't playable anymore. Probably because they had the bright idea to make every move a skillshot. Look, if strategy games aren't your forte, that's fine, but that's what League of Legends is first and foremost; a strategy game. If you can't come up with a strategy other than "I will simply not get hit by anything and while doing so manage to hit everyone with my stuff and kill them all" then maybe Call of Duty is a better game for you? A MOBA is not an FPS. Don't treat it like one.

YoungFarmerJul 1, 20182 votes

I love fiddle, hes always been an annoying champ to lane against. I wish Riot would gut his laning and make him viable in the jg but alas they won't.

FiddlerOnTheRiftJul 2, 20182 votes

As a fiddle main for the longest time from my main account to now, Here's what I can tell you: He doesn't need anything more than a Visual Update. His kit is fine. He's really easy to counter gank early if you know what you're doing, and he is easy to kill if you have jungles and channel sweet spots warded.

I'll breakdown his kit: Q - Fear for about 2 seconds at max. As a secondary support champion, his Q is unique since it is one of the only abilities in the game that has no damage for a champion's Q ability. His Q is very helpful against diving and mobile champs, such as Garen, Master Yi, Rammus, etc. Another great thing his Q does is that it cancels Channels. It's a very underrated and helpful ability, but not super effective if you're the jungler. My verdict: Balanced and Underrated.

W - The Drain is Fiddlesticks signature ability. I think it has the title of being the channel with the most damage that isn't an Ultimate in the game. He heals from his W, but he is also very vulnerable with his W. If he is draining one guy, he is unable to worry about anyone else around him. In team fights, Drain is only really useful during Fiddlesticks' Ultimate, but even that isn't guaranteed if you're going to Zhonya's. My Verdict: Balanced but Threatening in 1v1 situations.

E - To be completely honest with you, The silence from this ability is one of the remaining few 'click to silence' abilities. We used to have a Click to Pull Blitzcrank, a Click to Stun Taric and Sion, a Click to Slow Swain, and a Click to DoT Swain. The Click to Silence may be an edge that Fiddlesticks has over a lot of champions, especially since it is a great poking tool and damage dealer. This is the only ability I would agree with any of you on that needs a change. My Verdict: Outdated and Overpowered.

R - Crowstorm is also a signature ability of Fiddlesticks, but the W I think is more exclusive to his character than the Crowstorm. Fiddlesticks' ultimate is such an amazing ability for it's Team Fight potential, damage, and assassination capabilities. This ability does not deserve any rework whatsoever. It may deal a lot of damage, but against a team that knows how to counter it makes it useless. Warding Channel Sweet spots (Raptors, Gromp, River bushes, Buffs, pits, bush behind pits, etc.) Make it really easy for a champion on your team to either burst him down or silence him. Taking him out has a critical affect on the team fight because his team would be expecting his ultimate to carry those fights. My Verdict: Balanced

The E could be a skillshot if anything, but overall this champion only needs a VU.