Mana Regeneration Efficiency

Stacona·Nov 21, 2014·1 votes·868 views

Chalice/Grail vs Morellos [based on level 18] --- In a completely Out Of Mana (OOM) state Chalice/Grail only gives roughly 1.5 Mana per second more than Morellos, this number will be a tiny bit higher and tiny bit lower based on your champion. Again outside of an OOM state Morellos either gives the same Mana regen or more Mana regen than Chalice/Grail; plus it is 600 gold cheaper, applies grievous wounds, and gives 20 more AP. Chalice needs a pretty majour buff at this point since it should be the highest mana sustain item and be like paying to have a permanent blue buff. Of course there is Archangel's which grants the highest base AP of all the AP items, deepest mana pool of course, and a juicy shield with embrace [offense, defense, utility in one item].

Just some food for thought in planning out your builds for AP champions to go the most efficient route! ~ Stacona

18 Comments

LuçiferNov 21, 20141 votes

Yeah I bought a tear and noticed much less mana sustain in lane. I would like an item that gives me mana. lol

StaconaNov 21, 20141 votes

Tear gives Mana, Chalice suppose to give mana regen

To let you know the old Chalice gave 0%-100% increase mana regen based on your missing mana, morelloes gives 100% increase base mana regen- so morellos right now is giving chalice's old passive minues the 7 mana per 5 and 10 mana per 5 chalice/grail gave--- but morellos and archangel's should give enough mana regen and of course mana pool for mana sustain granting 150% increase regen and your tear portion of mana pool [150% regen on mages should grant you 10 mana per second at level 18]

also another fun fact, chalice no longer buffs blue buff regen, tear still does however [blue buff gives 0.5% max mana per second]

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

from my experiences with the items last night, morellos is really bad mana regen for almost the entire game. chalice gives so much more it's absurd.

StaconaNov 21, 20141 votes

it doesn't i just did the math- unless you think 1.5 more mana per second at zero mana is an absurd amount - if you had a fully stacked tear you can get 3 more mana per second at zero mana

ProfDrDeathNov 21, 20141 votes

Chalice is currently bugged to give 1.5% missing mana PER SECOND and not PER 5 SECONDS.

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

Chalice is currently bugged to give 1.5% missing mana PER SECOND and not PER 5 SECONDS.

if that's the case then mana regen is totally fked this season and we may as well only play manaless champions

ZaikyoNov 22, 20141 votes

While I agree that it sucks, I would like to point out that there was a day before Athene's. Sure, we had chalice, but no one liked buying it because it didn't have an upgrade. Then, when they made Athene's (which had 80 AP at release)...Riot had to buff it to 90 AP to try an entice people to use it due to most people just sticking to their old ways and managing their mana.

Having said that, I know blue buff was stronger back then....but even so. It'll suck, but people will either manage or adapt. Or Rito will buff it, I unno.

StaconaNov 21, 20141 votes

Chalice is not bugged, it is giving 0.3% missing Mana per second like how Riot programmed the new Mana Font passive

ProfDrDeathNov 21, 20141 votes

It is almost as if Grail now scales with the size of your mana pool - if you buy some mana to extend your pool, Chalice will actually outscale Morellonomicon.

StaconaNov 21, 20141 votes

you need over 2000 Bonus Mana , good luck with that; you don't need mana regen with that mana pool

MahnigguhNov 21, 20141 votes

i have a feeling the nerf to chalice is very subjective right now. player with better mana control might think it is doing just fine. I think that the point riot was trying to make is we need to make better decisions about spell casting and not be reliant on infinite mana pools. In a low elo solo q this is a bad thing but for higher level matched this makes the player think about what spells they are casting and when. it also gives players incentive to get better at skill shots by punishing them fro missing. I am not a good player so i miss my mana ( i like singed and urgot too :/) but i feel like Riot removed a crutch from the game which is a good thing. It makes for more interesting mid laning and more competitive play all around

StaconaNov 21, 20141 votes

You are diving too deep into this- Riot nerfed chalice for the sake of nerfing chalice, there is no deep profound meaning to this- they over nerfed the item, done

MahnigguhNov 21, 20142 votes

You are diving too deep into this- Riot nerfed chalice for the sake of nerfing chalice, there is no deep profound meaning to this- they over nerfed the item, done

The end result is still the same. people will have to play smarter and better to achieve their results making it harder and more worth while to prove yourself as a top tier player. You can't tell me no one ever rode to gold on mana hungry champ that capitalized off of the tear. MANAgement is part of the new meta now and i actually think its a good thing

LongHair FoxNov 21, 20141 votes

To clear things up: If there was one strategy in season 4 that was toxic it was the buy grail/athenes for infinite mana and stay back as ziggs/lux and clear the wave before it even goes into lane. It was not even slightly bad or salvageable it was toxic at it's core that you were able to do it. It would still be toxic if you had to pay 5000 gold just for that even if it was undertuned/unviable. This change means that you cannot insta clear every wave without running out of mana and besides removing chalice this is the best change i can think of. This change not only removes that strategy but it also means that those who really need it (anivia/swain) still gets it but everyone who was just abusing it and being toxic can no longer do so.

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

To clear things up: If there was one strategy in season 4 that was toxic it was the buy grail/athenes for infinite mana and stay back as ziggs/lux and clear the wave before it even goes into lane. It was not even slightly bad or salvageable it was toxic at it's core that you were able to do it. It would still be toxic if you had to pay 5000 gold just for that even if it was undertuned/unviable. This change means that you cannot insta clear every wave without running out of mana and besides removing chalice this is the best change i can think of. This change not only removes that strategy but it also means that those who really need it (anivia/swain) still gets it but everyone who was just abusing it and being toxic can no longer do so.

Unfortunately champions were actually balanced around this item. Whether the strategy was toxic or not is surely an important discussion point, and I agree with you to a certain degree. However these mana changes are really going to impact a lot of AP mages to a serious degree.

Consider Ziggs' impact in team fights - you can dodge his bombs, walk around his E, etc. to negate his damage. A good Ziggs will land some of these regardless of your efforts, but it's within your power to dodge a lot of it. The reason Ziggs is picked is not for his strength in teamfights, but for his ability to poke and siege before the teamfight. However with such low mana regen, he's unable to complete this task while maintaining a reasonable mana pool for when the fight actually breaks out. Without his ability to use his range to poke and wear down an enemy team, Ziggs becomes useless compared to an AD champion who can continually attack with no repercussions. Or a manaless champ who can spam abilities to their heart's content.

LongHair FoxNov 21, 20141 votes

Unfortunately champions were actually balanced around this item. Whether the strategy was toxic or not is surely an important discussion point, and I agree with you to a certain degree. However these mana changes are really going to impact a lot of AP mages to a serious degree.

Consider Ziggs' impact in team fights - you can dodge his bombs, walk around his E, etc. to negate his damage. A good Ziggs will land some of these regardless of your efforts, but it's within your power to dodge a lot of it. The reason Ziggs is picked is not for his strength in teamfights, but for his ability to poke and siege before the teamfight. However with such low mana regen, he's unable to complete this task while maintaining a reasonable mana pool for when the fight actually breaks out. Without his ability to use his range to poke and wear down an enemy team, Ziggs becomes useless compared to an AD champion who can continually attack with no repercussions. Or a manaless champ who can spam abilities to their heart's content.

Ziggs can still do the same things late game. Buy a tear and you have the same thing but in a healthy way where you cannot do it infinitely. I would say that what has been changed most is his lane being weaker without chalice. If anything they might balance his base mana regen or his damage. Now that you don't have to count in infinite mana in lane there are many ways to buff those champions while keeping hem healthy.

StaconaNov 21, 20141 votes

First off, you obviously don't know what toxicity is Second off, there really wasn't anything wrong with chalice/grail, i think you just needed to give archangel cdr to see more diversity for mana sustain Third off, nothing is more toxic than Flash and nothing is more of a crutch than Flash, the very thought process that Flash is "needed" makes the game very static, unfun, toxic since it stifles creativity with summoner spells

LongHair FoxNov 22, 20141 votes

Ok you clearly are participating in the down with flash discussion. Now let me tell you as we seem to disagree what is toxic.

Flash is not toxic. Neccessary maybe but it is rarely up and can be outplayed/outguessed. It also leaves up opportunity to gank or go all in when it is not up. Sure it is static and sure it might not be fun (I disagree here flash is tons of fun) but it is not toxic as it can be used as a tactical tool to make plays which then leave gaps to engage on later. The problem with flash is a problem of if it is overpowered which it might be sure but not toxicity.

Clearing a wave every time it comes to lane from 1000 range+ leaves little to no oppotunity to go all in as most champions with gapcloser either signal them very clearly or have less than 700 range. In both cases you can go a bit back thus invalidating them trying to interact with you and then poke them all you want from under your tower where they can't engage. This would have been ok if you had to go back every other wave since you ran out of mana but with chalice you did not have to do that and giving archangel might free some things up but it still does not change the fact that you had infinite mana in lane.

Now if you disagree with me what it is that i don't understand about toxicity because atm it seems like you don't know what the difference between toxicity and static game play due to balance problems is.