I really don't think Viegar needs nerfs. He's fine where he is, if you feed him then you're done for but you can easily avoid this by picking an AD mid. Like an Irelia, Zed, Yasuo, even Talon would destoy Veigar if played right.
Penns12 votesBecause no one plays these champs and assassins arent meta anymore I guess. Same reason as to why Lux is op now lel.
kJs1 votesThem not being meta anymore is only applicable to Blind Pick where you can't counterpick. Veigar really shouldn't be a problem for Irelias, Zeds, Yasuos, Talons mains. Probably Riven as well. Like all 5 are such hard counters I don't see why not pick them if you're good at them. Yasuo is quite popular amongst the lower tiers at least, Zed comes second, there are some Irelias in lower tiers who are probably D5 on their smurfs. Talon's just been kinda ehh whole season and often can't snowball hard enough but still hard counters.
Penns3 votesBecause Veigar doesnt always pick before his enemies do. If hes picked, hes probably picked to counter something, actually. Also, even if hes behind, his late game is still disgusting. He goes like "remember when you beat me in lane 20 minutes ago? Take that skilled R button." lol. And his stun is awesome too.
kJs2 votesThat's a pretty good point. I guess he might be too strong against AP mages if he really is THAT OP.
People are making out like Veigar deletes everything whenever you pick him.
Penns6 votesHm, with some AP he does do that tho :p Making it hit 2 targets probably just made it worse.
TotalJerk2 votesYou get most squishies to critical health in one rotation post 6 even if you're slightly behind in farm, AP or no. It makes his roaming insanely powerful.
WarlockLaw1 votesHis roaming is weak as shit. Ward yourself and he can't gank you, now he just wasted valuable q farm time.
TotalJerk1 votesHis roaming is weak as shit.
lolwut. E is an insanely powerful ganking tool, possibly one of the best in the game.
He has no mobility. If you have a ward you can see him waddle at you from a mile away. If you stay to get blown up, that's your problem.
TotalJerk1 votesYes, he lacks mobility, but he still has a ranged Jarvan ult.
WarlockLaw1 votes"Ah shit Veigar is about to attempt to gank me, better walk to my tower since he has no mobility." moves towards tower Veigar casts e "Well damn that's a strong cc spell, I should sidestep it" *moves out of way and gets to tower safely"
Seriously mobility is king for ganking followed by cc. Cc means nothing if you can't dash into range or run 100000 mph. If you ward, anyone without mobility is bad at ganking unless you are way overextended
TotalJerk1 votesSo you're essentially saying that anyone without mobility can't gank? Ignoring the radius, Veigar's cage is 700 range, which is equal to or further than most gap-closers. Let's also not forget that the cage stays up for 3 seconds which means you're forced to stick around for that long if you don't have flash.
WarlockLaw1 votesStrong gankers have mobility and cc. By contrast weak gankers have no mobility and unreliable cc.
Veigar's cage is unreliable because of that delay. If you are wared Veigar ganking you shouldn't be successful as you should see him far enough ahead of time to back off before his cage is in range. If he flashes to put the cage down then sure his ganks can be strong, but I don't count flashes into general ganking power.
Nine times out of ten Veigar is better off q farming than ganking.
TotalJerk1 votesSure the stun is unreliable, but when placed correctly completely escaping the radius of a well placed E on reaction is difficult, most people probably get stunned because they tried to beat the warning. Veigar can force the 3v2 or 2v1 like that.
WarlockLaw1 votesAgain IF, heavy emphasis on if, you ward he should never be in position to get a good cage off when he ganks.
Sure a well placed cage cam win a fight, but that's true about a lot of things. Nobody calls Karthus a good roamed, BUT a well placed wall from him can force a fight bot lane
BlackEyesBlue2 votesI see Yas and Zed all the damn time! :/
LankPants1 votesBecause no one plays these champs and assassins arent meta anymore I guess.
Yasuo has the highest pick rate of any mid laner and Zed has the third highest.
Nahui5 votesStill complaining about Zed? Lol. He will only be left alone once he loses all kill potential. For some reason sheep translate dying to Zed as OP.
kJs3 votesThis isn't a QQ thread dude, lolz. Where did I complain about Zed? Stop thinking every thread with Zed in it is a QQ thread.
I simply stated Zed and Yasuo counter Veigar quite hard with their generally mobility and lack of AP for Veigar ultimate to cling to.
Nahui4 votesThis isn't a QQ thread dude, lolz. Where did I complain about Zed? Stop thinking every thread with Zed in it is a QQ thread.
I simply stated Zed and Yasuo counter Veigar quite hard with their generally mobility and lack of AP for Veigar ultimate to cling to.
The title. The way it's worded implies you're saying Yasuo and Zed are op. Otherwise, no champion is op because all champs have a counter so obviously I took the title as it was intended to be the way it was worded.
kJs2 votesNo, I really don't think it's worded that way. It's just that you are used to seeing Zed QQs everywhere because it's something that you feel really strongly about. You might play Zed a lot and think that he's fine which could or could not be true but I'm digressing. If anything the title was a QQ thread about stupid people who can't counterpick.
**There is a Veigar. Pick Zed or Yasuo because they counter him. **
The Ellimiist1 votesHis kit is just disgusting by design. Noone will ever like playing against him. I don't even like playing him >.<
Nahui1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Ellimiist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLW9KTOg,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2015-09-30T01:13:14.111+0000)
His kit is just disgusting by design. Noone will ever like playing against him. I don't even like playing him >.<
Just because you hate playing against him doesn't mean he's broken or needs change.
The Ellimiist1 votesIt's his design that's broken regardless of balance. Either his R is going to explode AP carries or it's not. It's just another case of a champ design where when he is strong he counters every single other ap carry and when he's weak he is just a walking stun on a long cd.
Bastard Chief3 votesVeigar is just the new flavor of the week. Were moving on from Thresh and vayne to go after Veigar now. Please excuse us for the next three days as then we will go back to Riven after.
pripustas3 votesBecause Yasuo and Zed require skill to be played properly, and are not OP? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUrxLgyvw0M] Yasuo or Zed or any other champion can't do this. This is bullshit.
DrCyanide4 votes1848 AP, that's impressive! Mind you, it's with full build, 
and 
.
You were saying about Zed not being able to kill people on fountain just as fast? 1 second from the time Zed started attacking her till the time Nid died, the same amount of time as Caitlynn was alive. https://youtu.be/6SNq63SWWOY?t=45s
pripustas3 votesActually in Veigar's case, it was 1hit. 1 button. Zed used his whole kit for that, and it wasn't a 1shot.
DrCyanide4 votesNo, Veigar used 2 spells for that. You neglected to notice that Caitlyn was stunned for nearly the entire duration of the W's fall time, thanks to his E.
Zed also missed his Q completely in the video, and used his ultimate earlier, making it 2 spells used there too.
Nahui1 votes1848 AP, that's impressive! Mind you, it's with full build,
You were saying about Zed not being able to kill people on fountain just as fast? 1 second from the time Zed started attacking her till the time Nid died, the same amount of time as Caitlynn was alive. https://youtu.be/6SNq63SWWOY?t=45s
Except 3 champions died, including Zed, and he needed people to tank.
Veigar just casted a couple spells.
DrCyanide1 votesZed's case was more a "let's give him the pentakill/ace them regardless."
Sivir died before Zed was on the stairs. I'm not positive on the fountains range, but it's questionable if she even tanked any of the tower for Zed.
Leona certainly didn't tank any of the tower, dying after Zed despite entering the fountain low health.
As for Zed himself dying, it's akin to saying "Zed's melee." There's probably some way to pull off the same play and get out alive, but it's not after getting the quadrakill on the rest of the team and using all your actives/Ult on them.
Nahui1 votesZed's case was more a "let's give him the pentakill/ace them regardless."
Sivir died before Zed was on the stairs. I'm not positive on the fountains range, but it's questionable if she even tanked any of the tower for Zed.
Leona certainly didn't tank any of the tower, dying after Zed despite entering the fountain low health.
As for Zed himself dying, it's akin to saying "Zed's melee." There's probably some way to pull off the same play and get out alive, but it's not after getting the quadrakill on the rest of the team and using all your actives/Ult on them.
They both had a hand in tanking, or else as soon as Zed stepped on the platform he should have been killed. Even if it was to delay the fountain's targetting system, they tanked it for him.
Salron3 votesThat's what I got from this post
Blade of Justic2 votesI don't think Veigar would be able to do anything except pop a Zhonya's against Talon.
Generally, if Talon starts snowballing, he deletes anyone he chooses.
kJs2 votesIt's just that the Veigar might be smart enough to cast Event Horizon's walls on top of himself so when Talon comes in he gets stunned. Talon isn't exactly the most mobile of assassins.
ApexInTheCircle1 votesIt's just that the Veigar might be smart enough to cast Event Horizon's walls on top of himself so when Talon comes in he gets stunned. Talon isn't exactly the most mobile of assassins.
You know, except for that whole delayed stun thing. I've played Talon and honestly I just let the Veigar throw his stun up and I let myself purposely get caught inside of his event horizon. Then when Veigar tries to come forward to damage me I just jump his ass and make him regret locking in Veigar.
WolfChases2 votesMaybe because Zed and Talon for example are not the best team oriented picks in this meta? Ofc that a good Zed will probably win the lane against Veigar but it doesn't mean that Veigar wont manage to get to the late game and to the point where he's actually extremely useful for his team, and there's literally no assassin in this game whos more useful for his team than the late game mage.
And don't say: "If you are Zed, finish the game before 20 min mark" because that point is valid only in bronze and silver elo games.
Yes, I am playing a lot of Zed and assassins overall and I am not QQing about Veigar, he is fine imo but even if I manage to 3/0 him during the laning phase and snowball myself, when the late game comes, Veigar becomes a monster who's like 10 times more useful than me in literally everything.
He's similar to Nasus, there are a lot better top laners than Doge but once Doge get's 400+ stacks there's no top laner that can match him :D :D
Kat Head2 votesHe's similar to Nasus, there are a lot better top laners than Doge but once Doge get's 400+ stacks there's no top laner that can match him :D :D
Similar maybe, but in power Viegar is so much stronger. Nasus is so easily kited he (most of the time) cant team fight, he is forced to use his power on split pushing. Viegar does not even need his ultimate at all past the 25 minute mark.
WolfChases1 votesYes I know, that's why I am saying that AD assassins are not something that will prevent a late game carry mage from snowballing out of control. They may win the lane, but sooner or later, Veigar will become a real monster that can't be stopped easily.
The Ellimiist2 votesWho consider's viegar op 0.o
Still rare pick or ban.
forist1 votesBecause counter-picking a champ is not considered a viable form of counterplay. There needs to be some level of counterplay for other lane opponents, like mages. With veigar there is so little. His stun can be used instantly if positioned correctly, his ult is point and click, and his q can pass through a minion for good harass or just hit 2 champs.
Dar Raksada2 votes[{quoted}](name=heart container,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLW9KTOg,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-29T16:59:35.121+0000)
Because counter-picking a champ is not considered a viable form of counterplay. There needs to be some level of counterplay for other lane opponents, like mages. With veigar there is so little. His stun can be used instantly if positioned correctly, his ult is point and click, and his q can pass through a minion for good harass or just hit 2 champs.
did they revert his rework?
forist1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLW9KTOg,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-09-29T18:08:47.093+0000)
did they revert his rework?
No, they have been buffing him ever since this "terrible" rework. Thus all the qq now
Dar Raksada1 votes[{quoted}](name=heart container,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLW9KTOg,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-09-29T19:14:46.587+0000)
No, they have been buffing him ever since this "terrible" rework. Thus all the qq now
his stun isn't instant then, I just played against one and whlie it's fast/hard to dodge it is dodge-able and visible
LeprechaunJinx1 votesA lot can go into deciding how you dodge it to be honest, I understand that being out of the box is generally the best position but you can really mess up timings and skillshots if the enemy Veigar expects you to try to buzzer-beater the stun. Sometimes staying inside it can be a better idea since you have a better chance to trade and the predictive W will likely have been aimed at the edge of the wall or beyond.
TotalJerk1 votes[{quoted}](name=heart container,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLW9KTOg,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-29T16:59:35.121+0000)
His stun can be used instantly if positioned correctly
That's an exaggeration, but I'll reiterate what I said when I was defending Veigar post 5.8: you don't use E to stun people, you use it to either trap or block them, it isn't actually a reliable stun, but is DAMN good at that part.
forist1 votesThat's an exaggeration, but I'll reiterate what I said when I was defending Veigar post 5.8: you don't use E to stun people, you use it to either trap or block them, it isn't actually a reliable stun, but is DAMN good at that part.
It takes you about 0.4 secs to blink. Veigar's stun has a 0.5 sec delay. That's damn near instant in my opinion.
TotalJerk1 votesIt has a .75 second delay if you include cast time. On top of that the average reaction time is about .2 seconds, even lower if you were anticipating what you're reacting to. It only really a free stun if you timed it during a lapse in your target's attention or you genuinely surprise them with it.
forist1 votesIt has a .75 second delay if you include cast time. On top of that the average reaction time is about .2 seconds, even lower if you were anticipating what you're reacting to. It only really a free stun if you timed it during a lapse in your target's attention or you genuinely surprise them with it.
Cast time is irrelevant to the person trying to avoid it. You react when you see it, because you don't know when the other player is pressing his w key. Look, a pro player's (wildturtle's) reaction time when flashing a malphite ult is 0.34 seconds, you think the average reaction time is faster than his. And this is a flash btw, which is instant movement vs moving a character out of the stun.
edit: here for comparison sake they go into it on PTL:
