why is no one concerned about 160 gold for a single turret plating?

Critmaster Garen·Nov 18, 2018·2 votes·3,148 views

doesnt anyone realize each outer turret has 5 of those and is now worth a total of 1100 gold including the turret first blood?

does no one realize that this means ANY champion who gets into the position to pressure or just poke at his opponents turret early on is going to get fed off his ass just from those plates, and playing safe under your turret will feed your lane opponent now if he gets to sneak damage in?

how is anyone ok with this? this is going to cause massive snowballing across the board.

it might be fine if it was like 50 gold, but were talking about 4 kills worth in gold on an outer turret.

good luck playing against shit like in season 9. champions like who rely on playing extemely safe early are just 100% fucked.

20 Comments

ModThe DjinnNov 18, 20183 votes

We're very much aware. I specifically asked MapleNectar about this in one of his threads because he seemed like a lot of gold (which it is, objectively). That said, he did mention that seeing all the plates taken is very uncommon, and gold values are easily tunable, so I think the main reason people are okay with it is because we haven't yet seen what effect it actually has on a game. Until we do it's hard to do more than guess (even if I think concern is merited), and the fix is easy, because you can nerf the gold values.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-18T16:38:33.810+0000)

We're very much aware. I specifically asked MapleNectar about this in one of his threads. That said, he did mention that seeing all the plates taken is very uncommon, and gold values are easily tunable, so I think the main reason people are okay with it is because we haven't yet seen what effect it actually has on a game. Until we do it's hard to do more than guess (even if I think concern is merited), and the fix is easy, because you can nerf the gold values.

what about demolish next season?

not only is it going to interact very strongly with turret plating, but also most champions who opt into resolve literally dont even have an option not to take it, because theyre incapable of proccing shield bash, and/or font of life is entirely useless to them.

i dont know if riot realizes, that for MOST champions who are going to resolve, demolish is literally the only viable option in that row.

even the ones who CAN proc shield bash, because they have shields built into their kit, or the 2 or 3 support tanks who would be interested in font of life might still decide to go for demolish, because the extra turret pressure to take the plates is too good to pass up on.

theyre fixing one problem by moving boneplating into resolve 2 to make it not mandatory anymore, by introducing another problem by making demolish mandatory now, simply because there is no other choice for most champions AND its effectively buffed twice by the existence of turret plating and the lower windup timer.

honestly shield bash and font of life are terribly designed runes, since theyre too focused on only interacting with specific champion kits. this is a general issue the rune system has.

ideally EVERY rune should be like boneplating and be effective on every champion, so people can indeed pick their runes according to their matchups or playstiles, and not the champions theyre playing.

and yes, we havent seen the effects on the PBE yet, but in solo que the high gold value on turret plating is obviously going to cause major problems.

ModThe DjinnNov 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T16:58:30.457+0000)what about demolish next season?

It will be likely a very appealing option, and, if turret gold is not otherwise overpowering, I'd keep a close eye on this rune.

and yes, we havent seen the effects on the PBE yet, but in solo que the high gold value on turret plating is obviously going to cause major problems.

I personally like to avoid this sort of doom-saying with changes that are this easily adjusted. I'd expect Riot to very quickly address this if it proves to be an issue. I'm not saying I disagree that it's a potentially big balance issue (with zero data, I really can't say), but I think the only way we'll really find out is to see what actually happens.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:13:48.005+0000)

It will be likely a very appealing option

im not sure you fully understand.

if a champion is opting into resolve, for almost all of them it will be the ONLY option, since shield bash and font of life are only even viable on a combined hand full of champions.

demolish is replacing boneplating as a mandatory choice, because most champions are physically incapable of proccing the other two runes either because they dont have a shield in their kit, or because theyre solo laners.

but on top of that, due to the strength of demolish in regard to turret plating, even the few champions who have the option to take one of the other runes might still take demolish.

ModThe DjinnNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:18:48.366+0000)im not sure you fully understand.

I understand your concern fairly well, actually. The current design of the rune system is, however, a separate issue from the design of the tower plating, and both should be considered individually. If Demolish is overpowered in combination with plating, that is an issue and it should be adjusted accordingly (either through Demolish changes or plating changes). If Demolish is the only appealing option on that row, that is a separate issue, even if it does influence how frequently Demolish is seen.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:23:53.308+0000)

I understand your concern fairly well, actually. The current design of the rune system is, however, a separate issue from the design of the tower plating, and both should be considered individually. If Demolish is overpowered in combination with plating, that is an issue and it should be adjusted accordingly (either through Demolish changes or plating changes). If Demolish is the only appealing option on that row, that is a separate issue, even if it does influence how frequently Demolish is seen.

not the only appealing option.

the only option.

even if you would nerf demolish, a lot of champions dont have a viable alternative. do you understand, that you could count the champions who make effective use of font of life on one hand, and the same with shield bash?

there are a lot of champions who would effectively not have a rune, if they picked either font of life or shield bash. if you group all the champions together who might want to opt into resolve, its the vast majority of them, and not a minority.

ModThe DjinnNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:27:00.396+0000)even if you would nerf demolish, a lot of champions dont have a viable alternative. do you understand, that you could count the champions who make effective use of font of life on one hand, and the same with shield bash?

I feel like the topic of your thread has completely pivoted here, especially as I can indeed things of some champions who would like Shield Bash, although it's a better team-fighting rune than a laning rune and much more comp dependent. My opinion of the rune changes are that that row does need a lot of work, yes, but that is -- again -- a slightly different issue that requires a different approach (i.e. a re-working of the Resolve tree, which I find largely underwhelming at the best of times).

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:29:59.131+0000)

I feel like the topic of your thread has completely pivoted here, especially as I can indeed things of some champions who would like Shield Bash, although it's a better team-fighting rune than a laning rune and much more comp dependent. My opinion of the rune changes are that that row does need a lot of work, yes, but that is -- again -- a slightly different issue that requires a different approach (i.e. a re-working of the Resolve tree, which I find largely underwhelming at the best of times).

yes, theyre two separate issues, but in regards to turret plating in particular, the effect of demolish on a lot of champions is still going to be relevant.

its also relevant that its not just a solition to nerf demolish and balance it around the existence of turret plating. at least not as long as the resolve path doesnt offer viable alternatives.

ModThe DjinnNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:33:28.612+0000)yes, theyre two separate issues, but in regards to turret plating in particular, the effect of demolish on a lot of champions is still going to be relevant.

Oh, certainly. But you can glean a lot from that. If gold income is too high across the board for players who are ahead, the issue is the gold value of the plates. If the plate-breaking rate of Demolish vs. non-Demolish champions is heavily skewed to favor Demolish, the issue is Demolish's balance. If the pick rate of Demolish is super high but the gold income disparity isn't huge, the row is super unappealing. As you change some of these, others will change, and you'll get new data to confirm.

its also relevant that its not just a solition to nerf demolish and balance it around the existence of turret plating. at least not as long as the resolve path doesnt offer viable alternatives.

Yep. See above. I agree with you that that row needs work. :P

EschetonNov 18, 20181 votes

I get that Garen doesn't have a shield or hard cc. But Font of Life works great for teamfights for those that do. And most toplaners have either shields or cc.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I get that Garen doesn't have a shield or hard cc. But Font of Life works great for teamfights for those that do. And most toplaners have either shields or cc.

its not just garen. its almost every single fighter who would want to opt into resolve (how many of them actually have shields compared to those who dont), and even a bunch of tanks like Zac Ornn after they removed his shield.

and no one wants or picks font of life on a fighter. its a waste of a rune.

AcanthusNov 18, 20181 votes

Literally the only reason I can fathom to pick font of life is if you want to play someone who can use item 3174 well and want to be supporty instead of a carry.

Tahminatrix Nov 18, 20181 votes

font of life + item 3504 on TahmKench actually made my teammates praise me. Tahm needs the movement speed and attack speed buff anyway.

EschetonNov 18, 20181 votes

Fighters go true damage. As for their secondary. There are plenty of options depending if they have dashes, high mana costs, build lots of cdr, want some extra defense.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Fighters go true damage. As for their secondary. There are plenty of options depending if they have dashes, high mana costs, build lots of cdr, want some extra defense.

not all fighters need to go conqueror all the time, and fighters shouldnt generally be locked into conqueror but have the option to opt into resolve.

dont forget that grasp was mainly intended to be a fighter keystone.

DerMangoJoghurtNov 18, 20183 votes

In addition to what's already been said, tower first blood has also been reduced to 150 gold.

Done25Nov 18, 20182 votes

The value of a plate is high yes, but people need some kind of reason to smash against the towers. Otherwise they'll just lane freeze and zone for 15 min because it's not worth pushing up. Don't forget that each fallen plate increases the tower's HP by a significant amount after they fall for every champion beyond one. If you try to four man a tower its 40 armorx3 for a 120% HP increase for 40 seconds iirc.

Who Fed RuNov 18, 20181 votes

The nicest part of this is that junglers will have even more impact, it isn't like the game is better jungler wins anyway already.

gg riot

Fízz v2Nov 18, 20181 votes

because I like it, say I roam bot as mid and kill them with my jungler maybe, then their tower doesnt die instantly, but we still get rewarded wtih ~2 platings.

HonzaroApr 15, 20191 votes

I hate the turret plating system it is completely ruining the game for me. First off its a nerf to teleport if you teleport pre 10 minutes you are punished so hard because your laner gets plates...he literally gets fed because he stayed in lane … I thought this was a team game and you reward people for just staying in lane that's bullshit also if the enemy team gets fed theres no coming back because the plates expire and leaves little to no counter play honestly hate this meta so much