Graves doesnt need his auto-knockback vs jungle monsters

DeusVult·Mar 5, 2017·94 votes·4,712 views

It allows him to be one of the safest junglers while also having a good clear time and somewhat decent ganks. And compared to a lot of other AD junglers he scales REALLY well since he has safety from being ranged and is naturally tanky.

i've seen graves do clears taking only a handful of autos from jungle monsters because he can kite and interupt autos. He has been a top tier jungler for a long time, and is currently considered the best in this patch, because he does everything well. Having the safety that his knockback gives him isnt something that Graves needs in his kit

87 Comments

McFatalMar 5, 201728 votes

"somewhat decent ganks"

you have obviously not been ganked by a graves.

he walks into lane red smites you aa's you 2 times q's and ults for your life.

if you dodge the first q going in , when it comes back it has an awful hitbox so you get hit regardless and it does about a quarter of your health for the lulz.

GULAG 4 UMar 6, 201734 votes

Eh that's only if you eat both Qs tbh.

Edit: down voted? Okay, so you are telling me that graves auto one shots you? He can auto r you for 1200 damage? Nice meme boards.

McFatalMar 6, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Eh that's only if you eat both Qs tbh.

i always dodge the first q but the 2nd coming back is the fucking disgusting one.

the visuals dont make sense and its impossible to sidestep in certain situations.

a graves gank is always successful if the graves plays it right.

level 6 ur ass gets dove instantly by the graves and whoever is playing top.

GULAG 4 UMar 6, 20173 votes

How do you get hit by the second one if you dodge the first one?????

It comes back the same way, are you walking back into it???

McFatalMar 6, 20178 votes

{quoted}

How do you get hit by the second one if you dodge the first one?????

It comes back the same way, are you walking back into it???

it doesnt come back the same way.

when it comes out its hitbox is straight forward.

when it comes back it has a T formation and it drags it all the way back to the place where it was shot from.

all i know is his q hitbox needs to be updated.

Chromatic EagleMar 6, 20171 votes

Can't you dodge diagonally?

freeloader25Mar 6, 20174 votes

dove... by graves.... wtf?! theres not a single jungler that has worse dives than graves. you can dodge EVERYTHING beside his ult by just standing on the other side of the turret. i actually have no idea why straight up wrong information gets upvoted on these boards... holy.

and always successful? what? graves is like nidalee, if your laner has nothing as setup most ganks are: graves running into your lane, aa you once, missing second q when youre not standing right next to a wall because you can just walk out otherwise.

dont get me wrong. graves is extremely powerful and in need of nerfs but not for the reasons you said. he is strong because his clear is fast and safe while scaling pretty good and his damage is pretty stupid in general.

3TWarriorMar 6, 20171 votes

graves can actually function as an assassin if the circumstances are in his favor, but the chances of such are fairly low unless graves is directly on top of his target

if graves has ignite and manages to hit all of his shells for 3 auto attacks with a thunderlord's build, he can exceed a marksman's hp in damage if they are using a standard build

the downside is as you say, the opponent would pretty much have to get hit with everything

although, if the opponent is at roughly 70% hp or so, graves can easily assassinate

GULAG 4 UMar 7, 20171 votes

sure, if the opponent just lets graves jump on him and doesn't try to dodge anything (Hint. Walking sideways perpendicular from grave's Q basically makes it miss you almost certainly)

DeusVultMar 6, 20177 votes

Yes his ganking is good, but not as strong as the like of Hecarim Zac Rengar IMO

which is why I said that he has decent ganks. Because Riot made him a generalist so he isnt actually bad at any one thing

ChaoticPineconeMar 6, 20174 votes

Quick question - if Graves has decent ganks, who has bad ganks? That list is pretty short.

SH AzykanMar 6, 20175 votes

Heimerdinger Janna Soraka ?

rtbf225618241Mar 6, 20175 votes

Ironically, all of them have tools to gank if they could Jungle.

More like Fiddlesticks Nidalee or MasterYi if laners do nothing.

five oh tree Mar 6, 201711 votes

If he didn't have it, he'd be unjungleable. He does need it, lol. Why is this getting upvotes? try playing twitch jungle with no runes. It would be similar to that.

ForFoxSakesMar 6, 20172 votes

Yeah just the typical bandwagoning.

If he took full damage on top of the 2 shot reload he'd have to go back to base after 3 camps but most plebs will just continue to bitch regardless

TheSingularityMar 6, 20172 votes

Graves has consistent splash damage, a tank steroid, can kite with his dash and an AA reset/insta reload.

If it makes sense for graves to have this knock back. That technically makes sense for Caitlyn headshots Draven Q enhanced autos Jinx rockets Jhin as his weapon hits just as hard theoretically Quinn enhanced auto. He doesn't need a knock back whatsoever. Kindred doesn't get one, has a mega nerfed heal, has low burst and is squishy af, yet was designed to jungle.

He doesn't need it and never did. It was just a tacked on feature to ENSURE graves would succeed in the jungle. Why else would they do it to just him, and not the champions I listed?

RalanrMar 6, 20173 votes

Because of his short ass range?

TheSingularityMar 7, 20171 votes

Kindred also has short range. And while jinx jhin and draven have superior range. They don't have a dash that can have its cooldown lowered by aa, practically removing his weakness of short range.

Olaf, yi, garen, darius and kled also have short range. But they, like graves have tools to change that. Only these champions can't kite and don't get special treatment so they could jungle.

AwoofMar 6, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Time And a Half,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEq9Ueu9,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-06T05:32:15.898+0000)

If he didn't have it, he'd be unjungleable. He does need it, lol.

I'm still at that point of wondering why Graves had to become a jungler.

RalanrMar 6, 20172 votes

Because he sucks in bot with his range and he'd be in top otherwise.

AwoofMar 6, 20171 votes

I'm fully aware of why he is played jungle.

RalanrMar 6, 20172 votes

Thing is, he was never intended to be such a good jungler with his rework. It just kinda happened, like how Vi was meant to be a top laner but became a jungler once the players got hold of her.

The kit just works better there.

YoungSirJ0eyMar 6, 20171 votes

Because Riot didn't rework him thinking about where he'd be played, they reworked him thinking "How do we make a shotgun feel like a shotgun?"

LankPantsMar 6, 20171 votes

If he didn't have it, he'd be unjungleable.

Fucking good. Graves jungle has been a cancer upon the game since it's inception.

DeusVultMar 7, 20172 votes

You mean that he would actually have to take damage and have a rough initial clear, but his clears would become better as the game went on. Like all other ADCs who jungle??

SpookyNeedleMar 6, 20179 votes

They removed some Nid animation cancels and auto resets, why not do the same for graves

Hunted9000Mar 6, 20172 votes

Its because Nid already has a auto reset on her q in tiger form, it was a bit too much to have an auto reset when she transforms too because pros abused the mess out of it.

notice me Sin piMar 6, 20175 votes

what do u mean Graves 's top tier jungler? there are only 4 meta junglers atm LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin and some other off-meta-but-decent ones like Khazix Rengar Hecarim Shaco Graves

Legacy HydralphaMar 6, 201710 votes

What do you mean only meta jungler?

The meta for each lane is as follows: Top: LeeSin JG: LeeSin Mid: LeeSin ADC: LeeSin Supp: LeeSin

SH AzykanMar 6, 20173 votes

Maokai LeeSin Orianna Jhin Thresh the team of "Riot won't nerf us out of competitive long enough to matter"

DeusVultMar 6, 20175 votes

Graves is by and far the best jungler atm.

The actual jungle tier in this patch goes:

God Tier - Graves S - Ivern Khazix Rengar A - Elise Hecarim Evelynn LeeSin B - Off Meta junglers

FlitcheeMar 6, 20177 votes

No he is not. Is he good? sure. Is he as strong as you claim? god no. if you're getting dove by him, you're playing the dive wrong, infact, if you get ganked by him at all, you play the gank wrong, don't try and fight him, all you need to do is back up and let him waste time. He won't get strong if you don't let him get strong, hes not like lee sin where he can just force you to be ganked, and hes not like khazix where he can just fly on top of you and almost instantly kill you, and hes not like vi where he has cc and damage out the wazoo. all he has is damage, good clear and strong countergank potential. Graves actually has an awful time initiating a gank unless you are in such a bad position that you are going to die no matter who ganks you.

Skins ProjectMar 6, 20171 votes

almost instantly kill you

...

damage

lol

not like vi where he has cc and damage out of the wazoo

Once agian

damage

Also he does have cc on his smoke nade.. Slows (If I remember right) along with blind CC=Limits ability to contribute to fight. (OR limits ability to escape) Tell me your as useful when your blinded as when your not.

can just fly on top of you

Does have dashes, dashes that give you armor/mr (Once again off of memory)

*Edit Formatting

FlitcheeMar 7, 20171 votes

You're just picking here, you can take bits and pieces of anything you ever read and make it sound as contradictory as you'd like to what the person was trying to get through in the first place.

Skins ProjectMar 7, 20172 votes

I'm not arguing my dear. I'm just pointing out that the argument is exaggerated. If you must insult or criticize something, do be as accurate as you can?

FlitcheeMar 8, 20171 votes

Where am i exaggerating? can khazix not almost instantly kill you? Does vi not have loads of cc and damage? and yes while the blind is quite annoying, its a small radius with a mediocre slow at best, definitely not what I'd considering game breaking in a gank situation. A teamfight however is a much different story. You are just salty that was i said was rather accurate. I've played quite a number of games on graves before his rework and thereafter his rework. I could sit here all day and list abilities off of any champion and explain what they do and make it seem over powered. If graves damage is your issue, would you mind explaining to me what exactly you want him to do? Go ahead, I'll wait, because as soon as you gut the damage you know what you end up with? a completely useless champion that is in need of a rework. Graves is not in need of another rework, His damage is high because he needs to be in melee range to get it off. He's a champion in which a good thought process is required to play properly, he doesn't have any kind of oops buttons like other champions, once hes in, hes in, there is not getting out without some serious outplays and if he goes in without being nearly 100% certain of the result, he will just be a free kill, and more than likely a free objective due to him being played in the jungle role. He cant choose the target he auto attacks, he has to hit what is in front of him, which is a rather awful feeling when someone dances you in a minion wave or hides behind a tank. To play against graves, you need to actually use your brain, its like fighting fiora. You can't just play like you would any old game, you need to out rotate the fellow, be unpredictable, and play as a team, Graves is not the best teamfighter, he relies heavily on skirmishes, or 1 v 1, or any kind of silly fight especially if his team does not have proper engagement tools. Those kinds of engagements favor him greatly as he is usually better at stack checking, and has decent burst. Where you see the wheels fall off is when teamfights role around, or if his team gets behind, or if he does not have a very good frontline. He is actually quite feast or famine in a sense. He needs to be melee range to do what he needs to do, and he needs to be ahead to do it without just dying.

Skins ProjectMar 8, 20171 votes

A)Mind responding within 12 hours?

B)Please format that before I have to read it.

C) I wasn't arguing. I don't care much about the state of graves ATM. It's just your own argument was quite annoying. Don't say NO cc. Just say MINIMAL, or near irrelevant amounts of CC for a gank.

Jun LongMar 6, 20173 votes

I would say Graves should keep his auto-knockback because that's part of his kit. Removing that would make Graves a less favorable champion in the jungle.

Also, despite Graves being "broken" due to his rather successful ganks up top or "ulting for you life" (lol), Kha'Zix does much better. Kha'Zix has no knockback or ranged ability. But he does have a heal. Master Yi has meditate, Nocturne has his passive, Elise has her spiderlings' heal, Shaco has his boxes... see what I'm saying? Everyone has their own way of farming either safe or sustained.

BlåbæretMar 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jun Long,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEq9Ueu9,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-03-06T08:18:23.783+0000)

I would say Graves should keep his auto-knockback because that's part of his kit. Removing that would make Graves a less favorable champion in the jungle.

Also, despite Graves being "broken" due to his rather successful ganks up top or "ulting for you life" (lol), Kha'Zix does much better. Kha'Zix has no knockback or ranged ability. But he does have a heal. **Master Yi has meditate, Nocturne has his passive, Elise has her spiderlings' heal, Shaco has his boxes... **see what I'm saying? Everyone has their own way of farming either safe or sustained.

All those champions are melee.

YoungSirJ0eyMar 6, 20172 votes

Which is why Graves doesn't have a heal. Your point?

CoolKnightSTMar 6, 20172 votes

I disagrea with removing this knockback. It makes him decent as beginner jungler. What they should address more is how much burst he can pull off with his combo. If he can oneshot an tank with 200 armor than cleary their is something wrong with his ballance.

VeltoxMar 6, 20172 votes

That's most likely lethality problem.

Gallows madnessMar 6, 20171 votes

i agree and it is a lethality problem he is considered one of the best junglers because he has that for safety to gank and he has no built in sustain to take hits so this may very well be his one ticket of dodging damage is this way.. he does get resist with e but it's not HEALING SUSTAIN it's like kindred's slow on monsters this is graves version of that

Gallows madnessMar 6, 20171 votes

on the note of kindred and graves does this mean that riot is making graves a marksmen jungler like kindred?

Meaning it's not unique anymore, interesting. A comment by a rioter a question was asked "who is the meta jungler" and they replied with graves so does this mean riot has officially agreed graves is a marksmen jungler?

SintamaMar 7, 20171 votes

It's not healing, it just increases armor and magic resist drastically while stacking. He still gets the 10% lifesteal from Machete. Then he builds PD and DD and he's unkillable.

Gallows madnessMar 7, 20171 votes

talismen start is much cleaner on him, i'd prefer to go it as his autos can hit 3-4 creeps at once and he heals more and sustains harder. what makes graves ACTUALLY so powerful is the fact late game he can go up to you unless your jax and lifesteal more damage than you deal making him unkillable at 150+ armor and mr it's quite insane he can heal for like 300-500 per auto and it can get quite messy

Synnx7Mar 6, 20171 votes

failure of a rework rework intended for ADC obviously, turned into a jungle. Incompetent riot

ChaoticPineconeMar 6, 20174 votes

Rework was intended to jungle.

Why else have the knockback on minions/monsters? It does absolutely nothing for you in lane. Combined with the shortest range of an ranged champ and being the only ranged champion whose autos get blocked by creeps, he really wasnt meant to lane.