I dont understand why ADCs are allowed to have assassin burst damage.

lolipopevelynn·Feb 27, 2018·68 votes·3,326 views

You reworked and nerfed all assassins into the ground because of there burst dmg. you nerf zoe into the ground because of her burst dmg. but everyone on the balance team is perfectly ok with bursting squishy champions from 600-700+ range...

and lets not forget who constantly get free passes despite his stealth and insane 700+ range PIERCING ultimate. perfectly fine for him to assassinate anyone he wants, but for some reason has to stay butchered for multiple seasons.

88 Comments

2Charmnot2CharmFeb 27, 201857 votes

People say assassins had no counter play, but i fail to see how anything a assassin had to do to kill others is worse than just being right clicked to death from range with a 100% chance to hit.

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20187 votes

{quoted}

People say assassins had no counter play, but i fail to see how anything a assassin had to do to kill others is worse than just being right clicked to death from range with a 100% chance to hit.

This. Same with people saying that about burst mages like Zoe who have all skill shots and no luxury of mobility or peel like plenty of adcs do. Xayah Tristana Ezreal Vayne

Yaśuo MainFeb 27, 201814 votes

At the compensation of very large range mid-lategame, you can't deny that. No ADC can do that as such a caliber.

EedatFeb 27, 201830 votes

As someone who plays a few assassins, they don't. I can 100-0 an ADC in one combo on Wukong before they even land if I catch one by themselves. The issue becomes supports removing their weakness of being easy to kill with fuck tons of shields, heals, point and click CC, or an exhaust

lolipopevelynnFeb 27, 201812 votes

{quoted}

As someone who plays a few assassins, they don't. I can 100-0 an ADC in one combo on Wukong before they even land if I catch one by themselves. The issue becomes supports removing their weakness of being easy to kill with fuck tons of shields, heals, point and click CC, or an exhaust

Tristana "dont mind me, ima just ult you away, then jump away, then press E and right click you to death with my 80-100% crit rate and 700+ range!"

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 201825 votes

That’s not assassination or burst, that’s getting kited and DPSd down.

WiegrafOfValorFeb 27, 201823 votes

Back in my day "kited" would mean more than pressing R exactly once.

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 201817 votes

You’re not the only one with complaints about Trist, but pretending she’s something like what AP Trist used to be isn’t going to help anyone.

Pierce The VealFeb 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

You’re not the only one with complaints about Trist, but pretending she’s something like what AP Trist used to be isn’t going to help anyone.

What’s funny is AP tristana’s main strength was jumping onto a bunch of low health minions to deal insane splash damage to the enemy laner. Besides that she was rather bad despite the insane burst with dfg.

Today’s tristana has sustain AND burst without having to itemize in a weird manner.

karolmoFeb 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

What’s funny is AP tristana’s main strength was jumping onto a bunch of low health minions to deal insane splash damage to the enemy laner. Besides that she was rather bad despite the insane burst with dfg.

Today’s tristana has sustain AND burst without having to itemize in a weird manner.

You clearly didn't know what AP trist was.

PB4UAMEFeb 27, 20184 votes

No, I think you're misremembering, as he is QUITE correct here.

We're talking level 5, jumps into a minion wave, one shots the enemy laner 100-0, and the jungler if they tried ganking for a double kill. (Her E's passive had 150 base damage plus a small ratio of like .3AP at rank 3, so killing all 6 minions dealt just over 1,000 damage with AP runes, masteries and a Doran's start, not to mention her W hitting for 100 + 1.0AP itself, giving her ~1150 damage in AoE just by pressing W into a minion wave that she had primed, well before any champions had 1k hp naturally as this was also before RIOT front-loaded the stat gains from levels, and put an additional chunk of level up stats into champions starting stats; and likely against mages in the mid lane, with lower hp than usual, and no scaling MR, so 30 base plus whatever they took, if they took any, in runes [note, flat AP or AP/lvl blues were pretty common at this time])

Yes, her 2.0AP ratio ult, and what, .8AP? on the full D.o.T. of her E made her strong as a burst mage/ranged assassin, but it was no where even close to as bad as AP trist turning your minion waves into literally 1-shot death traps.

Pierce The VealMar 1, 20182 votes

Yeah. She was decent at best with the rest of her kit. Her ult was on too long of a cooldown and here burn was good, but not good as a stand alone ability. A lot of mages were better. She was just very cheesy even without her minion wave one shot trick. With the minion wave one shot trick? She was cheese incarnate.

Pierce The VealMar 1, 20181 votes

Eh. It was very cheesy but not very good past silver. Beyond that it was easy to counterplay it.

SSJTribeFeb 27, 20183 votes

Speaking of AP Trist, this always makes me laugh

https://youtu.be/kvlQKKEhVKc?t=32

SephAgroFeb 27, 20186 votes

"DPS" not "BPS"

haha good one hehe nice joke

AmazoXFeb 27, 20185 votes

{quoted}

That’s not assassination or burst, that’s getting kited and DPSd down.

Pressing two buttons to grant you insane peel is kited, you've only heard it from LyingOnLine ladies and gentlemen.

lolipopevelynnFeb 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

That’s not assassination or burst, that’s getting kited and DPSd down.

Think you mean BPS'd down

VerxintFeb 28, 20181 votes

I remember when kiting on ADCs meant extended periods of near perfect stutter stepping and spacing, not getting one shield or pressing r and right clicking the enemy faster than they kill you

HyquiemFeb 27, 20188 votes

{quoted}

As someone who plays a few assassins, they don't. I can 100-0 an ADC in one combo on Wukong before they even land if I catch one by themselves. The issue becomes supports removing their weakness of being easy to kill with fuck tons of shields, heals, point and click CC, or an exhaust

Have you seen the damage a draven gets after item 3031 and then it’s just so cringe,

xelakerFeb 27, 20183 votes

To be fair, with all the damage creep, the support role would be floundering if they didn't get something to help out.

Feel ApathyFeb 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

As someone who plays a few assassins, they don't. I can 100-0 an ADC in one combo on Wukong before they even land if I catch one by themselves. The issue becomes supports removing their weakness of being easy to kill with fuck tons of shields, heals, point and click CC, or an exhaust

item 3047 item 3026 Pretty sure that adc has never heard of those 2 items. Most even go for a item 3139 as well and are effectively ranged bruisers with lifesteal and 50-80% crit.

Troll for TrumpFeb 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

As someone who plays a few assassins, they don't. I can 100-0 an ADC in one combo on Wukong before they even land if I catch one by themselves. The issue becomes supports removing their weakness of being easy to kill with fuck tons of shields, heals, point and click CC, or an exhaust

The problem is that wukong actually assassinates a lot of people faster than most assassins right now. The assassins were intentionally reworked to have built-in delays as counterplay. Wukong wasn't part of that rework. Wukong has his own problems, but right now, he basically plays like one of the old assassins.

Compared to modern assassins, ADCs take about as much time to kill a squishy as it takes for the assassin to kill the target.

VerxintFeb 28, 20181 votes

Supports saving ADC's isn't a problem on its own. The problem is that in a lot of cases, if you just barely fail to kill the ADC they will nearly kill you with autos before you can disengage because the autos chunk so hard. One shield to give them 3 attacks and your assassination failed. We've even seen things like that in LCS where the carry melts an enemy squishy in that time.

AirKingNeoFeb 27, 201824 votes

They don't and you're hyperbolizing.

AhristocatsFeb 27, 201810 votes

tristana does thanks to her ult+free crit AA during animation triggering E in mid air

Pika FoxFeb 27, 201814 votes

They literally dont have assassin burst damage.

SalamencęFeb 27, 201812 votes

At the end of the day though it's adcs that are disgustingly overpowered along with their items, it's not assassins and mages being weak.

Nanuk PihoqahiakFeb 27, 201812 votes

My biggest contentions are with carries like Tristana. No carry with that level of damage output should also have an ultimate that knocks you back, a jump into a reset, and the highest scaling range in the game. It goes against every design philosophy.

OverpoweredSoapFeb 27, 201812 votes

Most of the time they only do "assassin level damage" because they are fed.

Which is the problem with bot lane, because once you get behind in bot lane it can be very hard to come back. One side of bot lane will crush and if the jungler comes down they can get the tower early enough to keep the other bot lane down. Towers are so weak right now (a combination of runes giving a fuck ton of damage and towers being incredibly weak since like season 4) that dying once in bot lane can pretty much cost your bot tower.

After that bot lane comes mid with their lead while the other underfed bot lane has to deal with pushing or risk their tier 2 tower to help defend a mid lane push, while also having less control over dragon and possibly their own jungle.

Bot lane snowballs too fast is the issue, with weak towers being one of the main reasons.

There's also the fact that most adcs items are really cheap.

KrytoricFeb 27, 201812 votes

get over the ADC hate circle jerk already.

ADC's aren't in a good spot, they're only good when insanely ahead. EVERYTHING in this game has an insane amount of damage, if you cant kill an ADC thats on you.

Red WreckageFeb 28, 20182 votes

all assassins are only good when insanely ahead.

KrytoricFeb 28, 20183 votes

nah they're good when they get item 3147

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20187 votes

Because they aren’t.

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 27, 20187 votes

This "deleyed burst" is becoming such a fucking meme now days when all an assassin has to do is get duskblade and GG you can 1v1 any squishy. If you cany 1v1 an adc as an assassin get better, assassins have no problem blowing up any squishy who is alone. Only outliners are vayne and tristana.

Zoe was nerfed because EVERYONE hated her, dont act like her design is anything but toxic.

Starcraft243verFeb 27, 20185 votes

marksmen : high sustained damages, no mobility, no tankiness Divers : high damages, mobility tools to engage target, medium tankyness Assassins : high damages, mobility tools to engage target, mobility tools to escape, no tankiness Mages : high damages AOE, no tankiness, no mobility, crowd control Juggernauts : high damages, tanky, no mobility

you see ? They all have high damages, it's the tools they use to get to their targets that differenciate them.

The Great DuckFeb 27, 20184 votes

Some of the hypercarries like KogMaw and Tristana do a bit too much early, but you're smoking something if you think ADCs compete with assassins in burst without having some massive gold lead.

DexterousGeckoFeb 28, 20182 votes

It's just insane to me to see those two compared in terms of early damage with how safe Tristana is.

The Great DuckMar 1, 20181 votes

Lmao and Kogmaw isn't? W isn't uber expensive but it gives him Caitlyn range at rank 1 and a bucket of damage + attack speed.

PoskeFeb 27, 20184 votes

Le blanc is not the healthiest example

Good le blanc ll one shot you from 1500 range. It wont matter if you are surounded by teammates. It wont matter if she is on ward She ll target access you from 1500 range and one shot you within 1.5 seconds (while effectivly she ll be exposed for 1 second)

From 700 range.. i LL INSTA burst anything within 0.2 seconds.

People who dont burst with le blanc are bad le blanc players you being one of those

Note I am not saying twitch xay varus and the squad is fine.. they are not. But unlike assassins they lack agency

Specially when compared to Le blanc which has insane force/agency potentional

SB ArneemanFeb 27, 20184 votes

The main problem is item 3087 item 3094 burst damage on crits. In my opinion they should tone down that damage quite a bit.

SkyottersFeb 27, 20183 votes

Not sure what you're talking about. ADC's are only as good as the gold they obtain. If they're not ahead in CS by a large margin or snowballed in lane, they either have comparable damage to everyone else in the game, or way behind and MIA for the entirely of the game farming just to be able to stay relevant late game.

As someone who mains AD with a pool of 3-5 AD's I play, none of them have that "insane assassin damage". Trist is an anomaly at the moment. She has just such a good kit for this meta which is why she is banned quite often. Similarly to the way draven and vayne have been in the past.

Honestly if you're on a good team that knows what they're doing, have mid shove their lane in and come bot for a gank or 2. Problem solved. Putting pressure on a bot lane then makes the enemy AD think to themselves "Can I go past my turret or am I going to get jumped on".

Then for the rest of the game the enemy AD has to catch up in gold, and when you're in full teamfight mode, assassins and assassin-like damage is moot as long as you know how to prioritize targets and whatnot.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 27, 20182 votes

Arguably, the gold they obtain is better on them than it is on other classes, because their items are way too fucking affordable for the stats they give.

Red WreckageFeb 28, 20181 votes

so in order to survive a 2v2 lane vs a certain ADC you need to have a mid laner who can bully their laner to then roam bot and 3v2 the enemy bot lane. and that is just to stop them from playing aggressive.

noice...

just and AD main giving tips on how to play against ADC which as per ADC mains, are not busted as fk.

Big Ol Spicy BoiFeb 27, 20182 votes

https://prnt.sc/ikbdzr

:thinking:

PoskeFeb 27, 20184 votes

SO your point is that you dont understand how statistics work?

AD carries face AD carries

You cant say that AD carries arent unbalanced just because they rival the same winrate with mages

Because AD CARRIES dont compete with mages they compete with carries

#Bassicly you are reading ADC comparison and coming to wrong conclusions

IfnethFeb 27, 20182 votes

I’ve only ever once had any burst as an ADC. I got an IE-Shiv Crit on an AP Gragas and took half his health. Everything else has been DPS.

Humble AatroxFeb 27, 20182 votes

dont forget the hardest scaling class gets the cheapest items hehe i love riot hehe

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 28, 20182 votes

How can your post be so wrong by only the second sentence?

Xayah has 525 AA range, she's amongst the lowest AA range ADC in the game behind Lucian and Sivir. Hell even Vayne has higher AA-range then Xayah.

Technically both Kog and Kindred also do, but they range is capable of extending 700+ due to their kits.

Leblanc got butchered because her rework was fucking cancer, they've even openly admitted to that. Not that her previous iteration was anymore healthy.

NymzoFeb 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You reworked and nerfed all assassins into the ground because of there burst dmg. you nerf zoe into the ground because of her burst dmg. but everyone on the balance team is perfectly ok with bursting squishy champions from 600-700+ range...

Not saying you are wrong with Xayah and Tristana, but there's nothing wrong with Draven bursting.

Considaring he has to waste to catch axes, it would be fucking awful to play him as a DPS character. Axes that also can be denied very easily with any kind of CC.

Out of all the ADC, Draven and Jhin should be the only one who should burst. Their mechanic doesn't allow them to do DPS.