111 Comments

jinxedchef82 votes

Honestly you can nerf both, nerfing Darius and nerfing Ahri isn't exclusive as far as I know.

Big Lincoln40 votes

it's nerf

or nothin

AMYS GRAVE11 votes

hhrrrrrgggg right in the nostalgia.

Fondling Gems17 votes

Except that there are plenty of mains who reach high winrates on their champions. Taric mains hover at like 60% winrate and the more games they play the higher Taric's winrate goes, which is actually different than a lot of champions where the more you win the harder enemeis you are placed against until your winrate falls off somewhat.

Like seriously, you expect someone who mains a champ to have a 50% winrate? That is just silly. Taliyah, one of the worst champions power wise has an almost 80% winrate by her mains. Even Urgot players can hit 70% winrate.

In comparison to that stuff like Ahri and Darius don't even hit very high winrates if you main them. People just complain about them because they are relatively easy to pick up and do well with, as well as they both have pretty dedicated playerbases. (32% of Ahri's playerbase has over 50 games on her which is pretty damn high. Darius is up there at 27% too)

Compare that to shit like Nunu, 53% of his playerbase has 1-5 games on him. He does not have a dedicated playerbase so of course his winrate is going to look like shit and no one is going to complain despite him reaching a 66% wirnate. Instead lets yell because the 71% of Ahri players who put more than 15 ranked games on their champion have a 55-56% winrate. (Please keep in mind that the breaking 50% winrate is all Ahris who have 15-50 ranked games on their champion which is a pretty good amount.)

Spice POWAH3 votes

Yeah, the winrate thing kinda falls apart with small player bases.

Fondling Gems10 votes

The thing is that those "small" playerbases tend to be composed of mains. Popular champions naturally tend to have more people picking them up for a short amount of time. This lowers their winrate because it doesn't matter how OP Syndra is if it is your 3rd time, you are still more likely to lose than win.

Ahri is a bit unusual though. She is one of the very few popular champs that have a dedicated playerbase. This means that people who start playing Ahri rarely stop in comparison to other champions. As they get better at Ahri they achieve positive winrates and boost her overall winrate. New players joining temporarily lower her winrate but unlike other champions they are more likely to stick around, raising her winrate in the long run.

Compared to other champions Ahri has a very high retention rate for players picking her up. In the long run players are expected to go positive on a champion if they main them because they will be better than players that don't main a champion, even if said champ is FotM. Players only really lower champion winrate in 3 situations:

  1. They are bad at the game/champion. This is influences all champions but some more than others. Ahri is a relatively easy champion to learn compared to something like Taliyah or Azir. This means that when you reach players of very low skill level the cut off point for going positive on Ahri after time is lower than some higher skillfloor champions.

  2. They don't stick around. This is the most common cause. A player plays a couple games on a champion, does badly, and never picks them up again. Ahri is fun to play and has a high retention rate so she is one of if not the champion whos winrate is the least lowered by this. People like to play Ahri and keep playing her. That means they end up making up for their initial lowering of Ahri's winrate.

  3. The champ sucks. This is actually composed of a number of different factors. Perhaps your champion is fundamentally flawed, that champion's winrate as a whole is going to lower. Perhaps they are weak in the meta, lowered. Maybe they have a low skill ceiling so getting better at the champ doesn't improve their winrate much after a certain point. Perhaps the champion falls off at higher Elo like Yi or Amumu. As you do better on the champion your champion gets relatively worse, effectively falling out of meta. This means the more you win the higher you rise and the harder the champion is to play until your extreme skill in said champion is evenly matched vs how bad of a pick they are.

Ahri is forgiving of the first, is hardly influenced by the second, and is currently a decent midlane pick who is safe into most matchups and is good at all elos. As such her winrate is inflated without her actual power being inflated. When talking about winrate on Ahri she is very comparable to those small playerbase champions because her playerbase functions like that.

AlienPrimate2 votes

Taric is different than most Champs in his counters. One trick ponies on Taric can do well in nearly any matchup where most champions have to pick around the team comps. A good example is my favorite middle laner, Galio. His win rate steadily climbs to around 50 games and then has a steep drop after. Picking galio into a magic heavy team is an easy win if his team doesn't feed but just picking him every game will really hurt the overall win ratio. The only champion I can think of that is really a problem for taric as a taric main is Morgana so picking him every single game isn't going to matter.

Mira Arya Enthe25 votes

Shyvana mains have like a 64% win rate.

Ahristocats56 votes

morde mains have 58% too vlad mains have 60% swain mains even more

we don't balance the game around mains

TyrekGoldenspear17 votes

Malicious Metal has 58% too

FIFY. There is only one true Morde main, and he shows his devotion by offering up sacrifices every week in the form of Morde discussions.

Ahristocats14 votes

i wanted to main morde this season the rylai changes just changed my mind quickly

so i took darius at least i won't fight with malicious over who's playing morde

lolipopevelynn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAZ41rm3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-13T21:46:40.265+0000)

morde mains have 58% too vlad mains have 60% swain mains even more

we don't balance the game around mains

oh really? Cuz they sure as hell nerfed eve to hell in season 5 specifically for the fact that "mains" were doing too well on her.

Ahristocats5 votes

which is why the nerf was bs

TheIronRevenant4 votes

People are spending a lot of time on a single champ and are doing consistently good on her? NERFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFSSSSSSS

agbudar7 votes

ahem.... AurelionSol got nerfed because mains had a 58 winrate on him a little too "soon" Azir

Automated Riven4 votes

His winrate for mains was like 78 when they needed him for that reason tho.

PermabannedGaren8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAZ41rm3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-13T21:46:40.265+0000)

morde mains have 58% too vlad mains have 60% swain mains even more

we don't balance the game around mains

Riot does actually. It's why Aurelion Sol was constantly nerfed when most players thought he was okay at best. Because once a player got past his very steep learning curve he was incredibly overpowered.

Ahristocats2 votes

if they do then this a really terrible idea

in dota2, the only time they balanced around mains was when Arc Warden had 94% win rate on his mains , because there was a build and if you did this build you won automatically and if i explained you why you would understand why

but mains having 60% win rate with a champ is just one of the most normal things i ever saw, no reason to nerf a champ for this

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAZ41rm3,comment-id=0000000000040000,timestamp=2017-01-13T22:43:00.543+0000)

if they do then this a really terrible idea

in dota2, the only time they balanced around mains was when Arc Warden had 94% win rate on his mains , because there was a build and if you did this build you won automatically and if i explained you why you would understand why

but mains having 60% win rate with a champ is just one of the most normal things i ever saw, no reason to nerf a champ for this

Fair enough friend, I vote we buff Yasuo because for most players trying him out he statistically underperforms and doesn't have a 60% win rate even on mains.

Ahristocats2 votes

fair enough friend, i vote we balance the game around mains and non-mains playing any champion

dominusx2 votes

if you balance trynda around my winrate he will get -3 ad.... please use lcs

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAZ41rm3,comment-id=0000000000040000,timestamp=2017-01-13T22:43:00.543+0000)

if they do then this a really terrible idea

in dota2, the only time they balanced around mains was when Arc Warden had 94% win rate on his mains , because there was a build and if you did this build you won automatically and if i explained you why you would understand why

but mains having 60% win rate with a champ is just one of the most normal things i ever saw, no reason to nerf a champ for this

Oh, and it occurs to me that, well, isn't this basically false?

Dota 2 heroes are balanced around the heroes being played to their fullest potential in professional play, right?

The devs do not give a single shit that Wraith King stomps ass against most of the playerbase. As long as he doesn't do that in professional or high elo play he's fine to them.

Anidan2 votes

This one is actually the most true. If they balanced for anything but pro play then Io and Visage wouldn't be just after-thoughts in a pub players mind that they dread playing. IceFrog doesn't give a damn if someone like Necrophos consistently has a 55% win-rate if Necrophos doesn't even show up in tourneys - that means, to IceFrog, that something is wrong with Necrophos, and he will try to find a way whether that means ability reworks (moving Sadism passive to his Q, and giving him a new W altogether) or just straight-up buffs. This is not to say he doesn't care if heroes are broken in pubs, because he will see about nerfing them in pubs if possible if it means it won't hurt their competitive balance too much.

The age of "Hohohaha!" is gone for a reason.

Romtheguy1 votes

To those of whom are curious, patch 6.83 is this unholy age we had to deal with, and it was more than just one hero - about 3 to 5 were pick or ban in pubs, if I remembered. This was in a game that gets patches after months go by. So, um, yeah.

Anidan2 votes

6.83, eh?

I know just what will make you feel better with that thought:

HOHO HAHA!

Not sure which exactly is worse, HOHO HAHA or Disco Pony going on an unchecked rampage.

Raid Boss Morde2 votes

We don't balance the game around mains? Then why did Meddler state that Morde can't be buffed because Morde mains are "out of line"? This was after the Rylai's nerfs....

jinxedchef3 votes

She just had a nerf this patch. Two really, if you count the jungle XP nerf.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Shyvana has been in the top-5 when mastered champions win potential for 2 seasons. A nerf won't do much.

TyrekGoldenspear19 votes

Um... Er...

ABANDON THREAD!!!

Dracocrash4 votes

{quoted}

Just gonna drop a downvote and hope nobody notices this thread.

What I read.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Hey I upvoted!

Incarceration12 votes

I'm a mage main, and I hate Ahri. I think she needs a rework

ZILLAGULA2 votes

So am I. I would play Ahri, but I genuinely feel disgusting for climbing with her. She is obnoxious.

Smitty Manjensen11 votes

Why do people try to justify one obnoxious champ with another one? It doesn't work.

invisiblecat17 votes

Taliyah has a 70% winrate for 125+ games Still Riot isn't going to nerf her

DoktorKaiser6 votes

As a person who mains mages, fuck Ahri, she is not a mage, but rather an AP waveclearing high mobility assassin. She needed nerfs years ago and still needs them today. And once again, FUCK Ahri.

Sraeg20133 votes
warpenguin5556 votes

Umm. why do i have to explain myself when i have nothing to do with the balance of the game?

Mister Support6 votes

Going by direct numbers, then that would suggest BOTH Darius and Ahri need nerfs. Not one or the other, but both.

Verdade4 votes

Are you serious? Any decent main breaks 60% win rate on their main champion...

Mister Support4 votes

I'm saying based on OP's argument. He had a construct of "Why nerf X champion, when Y champion should be nerfed because of their stats! They're the same!" His argument just says both should be nerfed.

Darios5 votes

These nerfs don't hurt at all, It just makes bad darius players badder

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

LeonLye4 votes

If you main a champion, it would be stupid if you don't have at least 50% win rate. Even if their main champion gets nerfed, they would still be able to get a 50% win rate, so they're really complaining about nothing.

dim2a4 votes

58% winrate on mains is par for the course, it doesn't indicate need for nerfs or not. Reason for Darius needing to be nerfed have nothing to do with that.

DarkSunSovereign4 votes

Who the fuck asked for Darius nerfs lmao

Definitely not mage mains.

Sraeg20134 votes

Well, in this Season I have 65% winrate with Syndra (only 17 games so far, though).

On the other hand when Syndra was considered garbage tier in Season 3, 4 and 5, I still had 57-63% winrate after 250-350 games.

Honestly, you don't look at mains' winrates. It's not really relevant, because even a 40% winrate champion can have mains with an average of 60% winrate.

The point is an average player does not have 150+ games on that champion.

Gunpoint4 votes

Wow it's almost like good players that know how to play their champion well win more games.

Borbland3 votes

It says "Very best X player". I dont know but the very best players of a champion having a very good winrate doesnt seem surprising for me.

FantasySniper3 votes

You can expect mains to have up to 66% winrate with their champion. 56 to 59% is the average with the top picks, though.

Some outliers are those like Rengar (61.75), Ivern (60.33), Aurelion Sol (60.39) or CAMILLE (64.25).

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