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Hexdrinker Needs to be nerfed

Perma CC··35 votes·12,418 views

Hexdrinker gives an AD Assassin 20 attack damage 35 magic resist and a trigger shield for 160 magic damage at level 6 which this item is usually bought by this time for the level 6 all in on an assassin. Paired with Nullifying Orb which gives 64 magic damage shield +15% of bonus ad. Combined this is about 220 effective health vs an AP mage. So you're getting 20 AD 35 MR and 220 health for 1300 gold. NOw lets compare this to mage defensive equivalent.

Seekers Armguard is 1100 gold gives you 20 AP 30 Armor and you have to stack it up to get the bonus 15 ap and armor so its definately not ready for the level 6 you'll still be stacking it. but most importantly you get no Health from it. even if you spent 400 gold on a ruby crystal you only get 150 health for a total (combined with armguard) of 1500 gold and it still isnt even as efficient as hexdrinker (Not to mention by the time you have farmed up 400 more gold for the ruby crystal the hexdrinker will have already scaled up to an even stronger shield because the magic shield scales up to about 280). This is a huge problem and it needs to be addressed. Hexdrinker is farrr too strong of an item and either needs to be nerfed or Armguard needs to be buffed significantly.

I think Seekers Armguard should give the stopwatch passive and just remove stopwatch entirely. Make Seekers ARmguard cost 1300 gold and maybe remove some of the stacking stats and give it a 1 second zhonyas effect on a 60 second cooldown.

68 Comments

Targon16 votes

Whenever I play an AP champion mid and the enemy builds item 3155 item 3111 , I lose pretty much all of my kill potential on them until the mid game because I can't poke them effectively, I can't burst them effectively, and I can't CC them effective anymore. Access to up to 60 MR in the early game without sacrificing a ton of damage should be addressed and in my opinion, feels like one of the reasons some AD assassins can feel overly oppressive in the early game.

The only upside is that in terms of upgraded items: item 3156 is pretty underwhelming the longer the game goes on (though its getting some buffs this upcoming patch), while item 3157 is good through all stages of the game.

Ifneth11 votes

You lose all kill potential on them, but they lose all kill potential on anyone if they rush Hexdrinker and Mercury’s Treads. Rushing Hexdrinker instead of Serrated Dirk is admitting that they can’t win lane. Rushing Mercury’s Treads instead of Caulfield’s Warhammer is admitting that they can’t carry the game. And since winning lane and carrying the game is all any Assassin is good for, unless their team pops off, you’ll be playing a 5v4 pretty soon.

Also, Seeker’s Armguard gives you 20 AP as well as 30 Armor and stacks both, up to a maximum of 35 AP and 45 armor. Hexdrinker gives you 20 AD and 35 Armor. In terms of raw stats, Seeker’s gives you equal offensive stats and only 5 less resistance right away and scales into a much stronger item, even considering Hexdrinker’s passive. It’s also part of a Zhonya’s Hourglass rush that you want while Hexdrinker just delays the assassins’s lethality powerspike while you stack armor with last-hits.

Hexdrinker might be frustrating, but it’s better than an Assassin who’s already lost lane being made irrelevant by getting solo-killed repeatedly. Think of it like their Zhonya’s.

Z3Sleeper7 votes

Yeah I don’t like this acting that Hex is “free safety”. It costs gold, delays lethality items, and quite frankly just sucks to build. But sometimes it has to be built just to survive a certain burst mage’s retaliation potential. It’s not an advatage, it’s a lifeline.

LordGeovanni2 votes

right if any mage goesitem 3191 item 3010 they do the exact same thing item 3155 item 3111 does except theirs actually scales and that mages wont ever try to do it because unlike people playing melee champions riot will change things when they complain that they do less damage or die too fast.

AHeroNamedHawke15 votes

Both items serve different purposes

Seekers is cheaper, completely cost effective after 1 minion wave, and gains 8% value every 30 seconds. If you can manage to farm for 2 minutes without dying, your Seeker's is now just as cost effective as Hexdrinker during its 5 second shield.

Hexdrinker is a spike to play aggressively, and Seekers is a slower build that becomes significantly more effective with a small time investment. Ask your jungler if you can poach Raptors to stack it up even faster.

5050BS7 votes

I would rather have a shield the activated by its self when I need it then have passive Armor the builds over time.

AHeroNamedHawke6 votes

{quoted}

I would rather have a shield the activated by its self when I need it then have passive Armor the builds over time.

Then you now have ranged mid laners with literally 0 windows of opportunity to kill them. How are you supposed to dive a Lux if she suddenly gains 30% of her health in shields?

Hexdrinker allows you to take risks, Seekers gives you huge value for playing safely. Giving them both the same effect completely ruins that advantage, and makes ranged mids even more mandatory.

Perma CC4 votes

{quoted}

I would rather have a shield the activated by its self when I need it then have passive Armor the builds over time.

Agreed. Also Hexdrinker's shield scales as you level up. So techinically it still outscales seekers.

LordGeovanni1 votes

item 3191 has better stats that just flat out negate more than the shield that mages know is there but never want to account for especially when it has a windowed down time.

THE RlVER KlNG9 votes

the problem is, hexdrinker is strictly better than seeker's at any point of the game

DeathBurst7 votes

Charkes Barklius just told you why that's not the case with numbers. After farming a couple waves, Seeker is better, with more stats for cheaper.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

The only numbers he used was hyperbole about a lux shield what comment were you reading

DeathBurst2 votes

The same you did yourself? 'cause in Discussion View you're replying to this one:

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H8dl56KU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-14T21:23:09.865+0000)

Both items serve different purposes

Seekers is cheaper, completely cost effective after 1 minion wave, and gains 8% value every 30 seconds. If you can manage to farm for 2 minutes without dying, your Seeker's is now just as cost effective as Hexdrinker during its 5 second shield.

Hexdrinker is a spike to play aggressively, and Seekers is a slower build that becomes significantly more effective with a small time investment. Ask your jungler if you can poach Raptors to stack it up even faster.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

He edited his comment after the fact lol

DeathBurst3 votes

No, the comment about Lux's shield is still here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/H8dl56KU-hexdrinker-needs-to-be-nerfed?comment=000100000000

And why the heck have I been downvoted?

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Except he's lying....

If you can manage to farm for 2 minutes without dying, your Seeker's is now just as cost effective as Hexdrinker during its 5 second shield.

Except its not, Seekers fully stacked only gets to 151% gold efficiency while hexdrinker with its shield gets 159.75%. It still comes 8% short even after 2 minutes of waiting. It isn't a better value item if you wait, it is still strictly worse even when fully stacked.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Seeker%27s_Armguard http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Hexdrinker

DeathBurst4 votes

"Lying", geez. Cut me some slack, it's 8 points over 150, so not even a 6% difference, and maybe you missed the fact that it's damn permanent and not just a triggered effect with a 90 seconds cooldown? That is more than enough to justify a slight approximation. And if you want to nitpick, I could also mention that since Seeker is cheaper, you can also get it sooner, which partially compensate the fact you have to "wait".

I made another sub-thread where I talked about why direct comparison between the two items is silly, but even with a direct comparison, seeker's is far better than people paint it.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

"Lying", geez. Cut me some slack, it's 8 points over 150, so not even a 6% difference,

He made a direct statement which is verifyably false. When we have people on these boards who are spreading misinformation like this it degrades our ability to have reasonable conversations. We can't have a discussion derailed because it is founded on flat out false information.

maybe you missed the fact that it's damn permanent and not just a triggered effect with a 90 seconds cooldown?

I didn't miss it, it wasn't what the previous poster commented on. They said that the items gave the same gold efficiency, which they do not. I wasn't making the case about perminant vs windowed power, only that the given statement was not true.

That 6% difference is a big deal. For 200 more gold investment you get 415 more gold value stats. A 6% difference in gold efficiency is effectively giving 215 gold value above and beyond what seekers gives even after it is fully stacked, and is available imediatly. That's more than two waves worth of minions in gold value. When you frame it in terms of actual gold value it shows how big a deal that is. Two waves of minions is not a rounding difference.

I talked about why direct comparison between the two items is silly,

Except it isn't, because in the matchup this is the relative tempo comparison to their early items. How the classes match up against each other when they share a lane is a perfectly reasonable comparison to make.

seeker's is far better than people paint it.

Seekers is strong and underrated don't get me wrong, but hexdrinker is just stronger in its situation. Both are overstated compared to other classes items and have been for some time.

DeathBurst5 votes

He made a direct statement which is verifyably false.

He said "just as cost effective", which is true with a 6% approximation. If you consider this "verifiably false" and outright "lying", you're the one degrading our ability to have a reasonable approximation.

I didn't miss it, it wasn't what the previous poster commented on.

Yes it was, it's right there in their post: "your Seeker's is now just as cost effective as Hexdrinker during its 5 second shield." THEY were making the point about permanent vs windowed power, and it's an important part of their argument, which justify the slight approximation

That 6% difference is a big deal. For 200 more gold investment you get 415 more gold value stats.

Bullshit, that's not how maths work. That 6% means that for the first 1100 gold spent on hexdrinker, you get 1757 worth of stats, which is 96 more than with Seeker's rate. And then for the 200 next gold spent on hexdrinker, you get 319 worth, which is 17 more than with Seeker's rate. You took the value of that 6% difference over the whole item and attributed it to just the 200 last gold, that's the first bullshit. The second bullshit is that you neglected that Seeker's rate is greater than 100% too, so if you spent 200 more gold at Seeker's rate, you'd get more than 200, namely 302 which is 17 less than Hexdrinker. So, a more honest way to put it is that that 6% difference means you get, at best, 96+17 = 113, and not 215, more gold worth of stats with Hexdrinker. (I say "at best" because it's assuming that after buying Seeker, your next 200 gold will be spent at Seeker's rate again, which is probably undervaluing it.) But yeah, that's half the figure you arrived at.

And to top it off, I just realized that you conveniently took the value at Level 18. Which is a) irrelevant, b) definitely not "immediately available" when you buy the item, and c) not what everyone else in this thread did. Even OP themself took the value at Lvl6, and since Barklius was talking about stacking it, it's obvious he was also talking about laning phase. So let's generously take the value at Lvl10, and oh wonder, Hexdrinker is only 141% gold-efficient, which makes indeed Seeker "just as cost effective after farming 2 minutes", NOT EVEN with a 6% approximation.

in the matchup this is the relative tempo comparison to their early items.

Highly questionable. The AD probably delayed his Dusk/Ghostblade by 1300 g, while the AP's probably rushing a Zhonya anyway. And guess what has a better rate between a full item and two mid-tiers components? So if you want to talk about tempo, the point goes to Seeker, not to Hexdrinker.

At this point, I'd like to ask again: who is "degrading our ability to have reasonable conversations", hmm?

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

[deleted]

DeathBurst1 votes

I use the same numbers as you, you're just interpreting them wrong. Which I explained in the previous post.

  • You took the value of that 6% rate difference over the whole item and attributed it to just the 200 last gold, when you say "200 more gold gives you 415 more value". No, what gives you 415 more value is the 6% difference in rate over the whole 1300 gold you spent, not just the last 200.
  • You neglected the fact that Seeker's rate is higher than 100%. So if you also spent 200 more gold when buying Seeker, you'd get 302 value out of it. But you act as if spending 200 more gold after Seeker would only give you 200 value. That's wrong.

And why don't you say anything about the fact that you took the value at level 18, contrary to everyone else? Because let's forget all the complicated interpretation above: if you take the value at level 10, Seeker is flat out better than Hexdrinker, no debate about that.

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

<Removed by Moderation>

Ok I was trying to be polite, but you really are a fuckhead

Hexdrinker shield at level 9, approximately when Seeker's would be maxed: 190

Gold/ point of health: 2.6667

2.6667 * 190 = 506

1330 from Hexdrinker base stats + 506= 1836

Seeker's full stacked = 1661

1661/1100 = 151% efficiency

1836/1300 = 141% efficiency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWKB1Zxg84s

DeathBurst1 votes

So heh, while I go fuck myself, why don't you reply to the other 2 comments here pointing out the values at a more realistic Level? I'm curious what you'll find to justify your insults.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Why would i respond to someone whose only here to harrass me ...

Bullshit, that's not how maths work.

... and who has demonstrated an inability to subtract. Now go away, i'm in no mood to indulge you.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah, nice try.

For the records: I never harassed you, you're the one who insulted me, and you're the one refusing to defend his argument. You're also the one who started accusing people of bad intentions at the very top of this thread, so it tickles me fancy that you dare criticize people's attitude. I'm not acting "all high and mighty", I'm defending myself against false claims.

Anyway, point stands, Seeker is more cost efficient than Hexdrinker, beyond the fact that they have different purpose. I can substract all you want, but if your numbers have no sense, substracting them proves nothing.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

If you can manage to farm for 2 minutes without dying, your Seeker's is now just as cost effective as Hexdrinker during its 5 second shield.

Except its not, Seekers fully stacked only gets to 151% gold efficiency while hexdrinker with its shield gets 159.75%. It still comes 8% short even after 2 minutes of waiting. It isn't a better value item if you wait, it is still strictly worse even when fully stacked.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Seeker%27s_Armguard http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Hexdrinker

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

{quoted}

Except its not, Seekers fully stacked only gets to 151% gold efficiency while hexdrinker with its shield gets 159.75%. It still comes 8% short even after 2 minutes of waiting. It isn't a better value item if you wait, it is still strictly worse even when fully stacked.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Seeker%27s_Armguard http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Hexdrinker

Hi

I want you to open that page again, and loooook reeeeaaaalllll hard at it.

Ah, yes, that's the gold efficiency at Level 18. It's like no one reads anything anymore.

DeathBurst7 votes

Direct comparison between Seeker and Hexdrinker is meaningless. Even comparing AP itemization versus AD itemization as a whole doesn't make much sense, because those items are supposed to serve different champs with different needs.

Is Hexdrinker a better component than Seeker? Probably. Does that proves it needs to be nerfed. Not at all.

Explain why Hexdrinker needs to be nerfed without referencing AP itemization and we'll have a true discussion.

Dead flag blues5 votes

{quoted}

Direct comparison between Seeker and Hexdrinker is meaningless. Even comparing AP itemization versus AD itemization as a whole doesn't make much sense, because those items are supposed to serve different champs with different needs.

Is Hexdrinker a better component than Seeker? Probably. Does that proves it needs to be nerfed. Not at all.

Explain why Hexdrinker needs to be nerfed without referencing AP itemization and we'll have a true discussion.

Because for 1300 golds it provides 35mr (item 1057 = 720 golds and only provides 5 more mr) 25 AD(item 1036x2.5 = 875 golds) and a free shield.

If the shield was only on Maw, but buffed, I wouldn't be against it, but this item is simply overloaded in this current state (most of the time it's a free win for the enemy midlaner if he rushes it, even if he's 2 kills behind against a mage)

DeathBurst3 votes

Hexdrinker gold efficiency is at 100% without its passive. That's indeed a bit high compared to other mid-tier components with important passives (Tiamat, Bramble Vest, Executionner, etc.), which usually have a gold efficiency around 80%. However, those other components usually have a passive that's more generically useful, or are normally part of your core itemization and don't delay your power-spikes.

That's one sign there may be an issue, but that's not enough by itself.

Perma CC4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H8dl56KU,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-05-15T11:52:26.761+0000)

Because for 1300 golds it provides 35mr (item 1057 = 720 golds and only provides 5 more mr) 25 AD(item 1036x2.5 = 875 golds) and a free shield.

If the shield was only on Maw, but buffed, I wouldn't be against it, but this item is simply overloaded in this current state (most of the time it's a free win for the enemy midlaner if he rushes it, even if he's 2 kills behind against a mage)

^Literally what I was going to say LOL. People dont realize how stupidly broken this item is regardless of comparing it to other items. It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too gold efficient and oppressive.

AHeroNamedHawke4 votes

{quoted}

^Literally what I was going to say LOL. People dont realize how stupidly broken this item is regardless of comparing it to other items. It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too gold efficient and oppressive.

I'm really glad you scrolled all the way to the end of your thread to find the guy agreeing with you

This is the kind of thought provoking and meaningful discussion we need on our public forum

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

Well he had to scroll past your lying about the stats of the items first, so you know.

Votable Jester5 votes

While I seriously dislike Hexdrinker, you can't seriously add Nullifying Orb into it as though it's part of the item.

Also that Seeker's would be better than Zhonya's (look at the cd difference).

MuffledGarbage5 votes

"B-but Muh Assassieeens are so wweeeek"\

STFU mages have been screwed over by your superior itemization for YEARS

T4underbolt2 votes

Meanwhile 0/7 support can stop 10/0 assassin from doing his job. But yeah. Mages have so hard time laning vs meele champ that they can poke.

MuffledGarbage2 votes

Dawg, that's advocating for Assassins to win 2v1 against support + ADC

stop that, get some help

T4underbolt1 votes

You should.get some help. If I'm literally 10/0 I expect to kill at least one enemy. If literally 0/7 support with 2/3 ADC can stop me from doing it by just brainlessly clicking 2 buttons then something is wrong. This is why there is no solo carrying. If fed assassin can be stopped so easily with no skill expression by bot lane who is behind. And people like you supporting that state of the game just make things worse because riot is less eager to change that. Now they put some changes but it's just barely a grain of sand on the dessert. They need to bring back solo carrying back from s3/s4

MuffledGarbage3 votes

HMMMM

S3 + S4 was an assassin meta

Seems I found The butthurt assassin main why you think Assassins shoulda been made stronger

T4underbolt1 votes

S3 and S4 needed just few tweaks to certain assassin to make them less oppresive and we would have most of the champions balanced. Do you know why its better to have assassin meta than the sht we have now? Because its literally impossible to make any plays and carry. At least during assassin meta even when assassin was fed you could stop him and collapse him with team effort. Now it takes one button click to deny a fed assassin any kill. And btw. Talk to me when you leave bronze.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

lmao now you're going into rank-shaming. All that does is lower your argument's credibility and make yourself look like you have issues you need to deal with

Most assassins before the Assassin-update were stat-checks

Talon, Rengar, and Fizz

The only thing they lost to was being outnumbered

so have 2-3 assassins on one team and oh look now assassins match numbers and GG

It's WAY more likely today for an assassin to be able to deepward an opponent, for the opponent to react to the assassin jumping them and for the opponent to have a fair chance of beating the assassin

ADCs are currently in that stat-check state in which they beat everything that physically can't deal with their stats

Assassins are balanced right now(Barring itemization such as duskblade), the counters of assassins are SLIGHTLY overperforming(barring ADCs being overpowered)

Understand?

Step Sis Lux4 votes

Its prob getting buffed on pbe xD

Perma CC5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H8dl56KU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-14T18:17:28.396+0000)

Its prob getting buffed on pbe xD

Yea yikes... I dont understand riot at all.

AirKingNeo7 votes

probably because the item sucks, its upgrade scales like shit, and no one builds it.

THE RlVER KlNG7 votes

its funny how pretty much everything you say is the opposite of true

AirKingNeo7 votes

Really? And you have data to back it up?

At least I have the raw fact that Maw's scaling isn't very high (by a look at gold efficiency AND scaling on shield being low) AND its low buy rate.

1.3% buy rate. http://www.lolking.net/items/ Low as fuck buyrate on everyone who should be able to buy it https://www.op.gg/champion/talon/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/zed/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/yasuo/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/jayce/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/graves/statistics/jungle (doesn't even buy lul) https://www.op.gg/champion/fiora/statistics/top https://www.op.gg/champion/kled/statistics/top

You really wanna fucking saying it's the opposite of truth? Is the evidence opposite of truth?

Z3Sleeper5 votes

Downvoted for stating facts backed with evidence. What a world.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

An item designed to be a counter has a low pick rate because it is only purchased in those situations. The statistics that show it is a low pick rate item without that context are totally meaningless.

AirKingNeo3 votes

excepts mages have on average high pickrates than assassins

therefore assassins should be taking hexdrinker more often?

Nyarlathοtep3 votes

Hexdrinker Needs to be nerfed

Hexdrinker Needs to be reworked. Ftfy

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