What can be done about Karma?

SilverSquid··28 votes·3,358 views

_HEADS UP: If you do not care strongly for Karma or don't want to learn about her design history/future, please move along. This is a lot to read. Feel free to skip to the discussion on her skills at the bottom part and let us know in the comments which parts of Karma you want to keep and which one should be most likely be removed/changed. If you do NOT want Karma to be changed, let us know, but please read this post first! _

So, Karma is not going to be included in the upcoming mage-update mid year. This might come as a surprise to some, as the main concern of this update was to give mages more distinct roles in overlapping areas (no matter how healthy or unique their kits already felt by themselves). Karma does suffer arguably the most from it. Compared to other mages, who fight in a certain area for dominance, she doesn't even have an area. If "little reason to be picked over any other champion in a category" would be a competition, Karma would win multiple medals. She is a poke mage, but any poke mage pokes better. She is a support mage, but any support is more useful. She has a lot of damage for a support, but any damage support does more damage than her.... You get the picture.

So why didn't Riot adress her? One answer is, that she doesn't fall into the category they are focusing on this time (pick mages/sustained damage mages). The other answer comes as a question: Do they have a reason?

Does Karma even need change?

Yes and no. Karma is in this curious situation of falling short at everything, but being balanced nonetheless. She can win games, make some plays, has counter play to her and overall feels fair. Her shortcomings only really become apparant in higher levels of plays when her lack of specificity starts showing and her inability to thrive/carry in any area becomes a good reason to never pick her. But then again, in high level play the champion pool becomes smaller and smaller anyways and just because a champion isn't on "top" doesn't mean s/he isn't "good".

However this all was true before Riot tried adressing her over a year ago in the heavily debated 5.10 patch. Next to some quality of life changes, they once again tried improving on her mantra. Some people agree that this was a good change, and some heavily debate this. Essentially, the Karma-effect happened again: Whenever Riot tries to adress Karma, to give her a push into a certain direction, the community splits and falls into chaos.

This results in a particularly confusing situation for Riot, because they can not find out whether the changes did achieve what they intended, or if they did the opposite. I have never seen any coherent thread in which enough upvotes were collected to support an agreed upon opinion on her. At best, a thread breaks the 10 votes mark, and that's it.

Why is that?

Karma's problematic fanbase

As I said, Karma's fanbase is split. Extremely split. Which is weird, since it's already small anyways. But let me give you a short overview to what happened.

Old Karma (before her first rework) had a very unique kit. It was unappealing to most people because of some bland abilities and a design that didn't seem to put her anywhere. But eventually, some people did fall in love with her unique second resource system (Mantra). And as she wasn't forced to go anywhere, people who mained her became incredibly flexible and just played her wherever, adopting a playstyle that felt very personal. So even in the beginning Karma players were united by how different they were.

At this point, no matter what Riot would try to do, they would at least piss off some players. People who played her tanky would be pissed if she became a mage, people who played her support would be pissed if she lost too much utility for fighting power, etc... She did need a rework, that was for sure, but in attempting it, Riot played a losing game.

NOTE: This might be analogous to the upcoming Cass rework. It's really hard to find a good solution, if everyone asks for completely opposite stuff.

The thoughts behind her rework

Karma had two main problems; she felt unappealing because of how mantra gutted her other abilities and how she needed people to understand her kit to make full use of her speedup (W) and AoE heal (RQ). However, nobody understands a champion's kit they never see, so the spells ALWAYS underperformed. The solution to the latter problem was adressed by making them independent of other players. Ironically this problem would've solved itself if Karma just became more popular. Today's abilities, like Bard's cookies, Thresh's lantern, Kalista's ultimate, ... also need your allies to understand them propperly. But the meta was different back then, and so was Riot's design philosophy.

The problem with her Mantra was a bit more complex. Having it at level 1 meant, that its power had to be kept under control, to make laning against her bearable. Having TWO of them at level 1 gimped their allowed power to a point that they barely felt more impactful than other base abilities, whereas the non-mantra'd abilities felt even weaker. So they decided to remove one of those charges, to allow Karma to at least feel like having gamechanging moments. ######Full reasoning for the changes can still be found on her wiki site.

Very understandable, as you can see. And they had success! Karma stopped being a laughing stock ("Karma?Who?") for the community and her playerbase increased immediately. However, two problems did arise: First of all, her original fanbase felt betrayed, because so much of her thematic and character was scrapped (complex ult, lvl6 spells, tether mechanic, bait power,...) in order to appease the masses. She felt like a better champion, but like a worse Karma. Secondly the mantra'd abilities were asked to only feel better and were still available at lvl1.

As a result, mantra'd abilities only superficially appeared as ultimates, but not in value. For example, her RQ damage was ridiculous, but was kept in check because it was a colliding skillshot, that could have 2/3rds of its damage evaded. Additionally it was packed onto Karma's most damage dealing spell, to increase the illusion of dealing massive damage with ONE spell, when it actually was two. The stern politician Karma, that felt weaker than she actually was, was replaced by a shiny more mainstream mage, that had abilities that felt stronger, than they actually were.

This leads us to the next problem.

Perception of Karma's power

The average player perceives Karma as stronger, than she actually is, due to this behaviour. Only thinking, that most people tell you she is "okay" should then already indicate something about her actual state. On the bright side, Karma at least has some counterplay to her now, and Karma fans would finally not be ridiculed for picking her. So that's a plus!

As a downside, it made any critique of her playability in the boards instantly appear missinformed, because any complaint about her feels to the average player like somebody doesn't know what s/he is talking about. "I played against dozens of Karma's and they hit like a truck with RQ and are really useful with RE, and heal 40% of their hp with RW!!!!". The arguments of Karma players who try to make a quick controversial point usually drown in downvotes, whereas elaborate explanations are usually too long to be read by people who don't agree already anyways.

Add to that, that well meaning Karma players usually follow it up by a "rework suggestion", that goes against how 90% of the Karma players use or see her and you can see why the posts on the forum regarding Karma usually don't have a lot of positive votes. Most people don't care, those who know Karma from playing against her think it's missinformed and Karma fans can't agree with each other.

How Karma is meant to be played

This is probably one of her weirdest weaknesses. Karma needs a lot of mana, cdr, ap, penetration and tank stats to use all of her skills effectively. But not all skills profit from these equally and you can't get all of them. In the process Karma players usually focus on different parts of her kit to make it work for them. This sounds great in theory, as it makes her customizeable and adaptable, but this fantasy falls short. Because getting enough of one stat usually renders another part of her kit useless. But as Karma is all about her Mantra, it means that she needs to use her whole kit to actually perform well. Which no build allows her to.

The current most successful solution is to go glass cannon, sprint around with E on yourself and spam RQ. This is so far away from what she used to be and what she potentially could be, that it drives some Karma players insane and makes them spam the boards instead of playing her.

But what do they want? What can even be done?

How to change Karma?

I think Riot lost interest in touching Karma. They haven't found a good solution for what to do with Mantra yet, and whenever they touch her kit, the disparity in her community become stronger. If you don't know what you do, get shouted at no matter what you do and things appear allright anyways, why make the effort? In the end, there is enough to be done in Lol.

This point is understandable, even if it isn't acceptable for the Karma mains out there.... which in turn is understandable too. The only thing we can do, in the meantime, is try to focus on working together and brainstorming over what can be done. What identity she can receive, which abilities she needs and doesn't need, which ones are problematic. In the end, we must admit that some parts of her kit have to go, and some Karma players will miss those parts. The more the community can agree onto something, the more likely is it for Riot to be able to tackle this issue. And if they won't start this conversation, we can! I'll make a head start, but please join me in the comment section.

Karma's passive

I don't think I've seen a single Karma rework suggestion, in which it wasn't changed. Surprisingly there is the consensus, that this passive is underwhelming. It feels like it was intended as her ultimate's passive that was used as a placeholder for a real passive. Either way, if Karma gets touched again, it most certainly MUST include her passive. Any propper passive adds another aspect to a champion, that works with the whole kit and encourages a certain playstyle.

For example, her passive could be used to make her a potent jungler by simply making it interact with jungle monsters. The frequent mantra use in jungle would help her clearspeed, survivability and would allow her powerful early ganks. It would also be the first meta mage-support in the jungle, finally giving her her nieche. However, this is unlikely to happen; making Karma a jungler ignores how 99% of Karma's like to play . Putting aside, that it wouldn't work with her lore anyways, Karma's fanbase just can't handle yet another split.

Karma's Q

While the base version of this is a useful and certainly unique-enough spell, the mantra'd version is the real problem. You might enjoy chunking carries from afar as much as you like, but you must admit that it's bad design to pour 80% of a champion's damage into a long ranged poke burst spell that also slows.

Karma's W

This is the basespell, that is most frequently asked to be changed. Sometimes because people want the old, unique tether back, instead of the poor-man's-version of LeBlanc's tether. And sometimes.... You see, it just doesn't fit her character or kit. If Karma has one spell that asks her to be at pokerange and one that asks her to cuddle, then neither her, nor the enemies know where they are supposed to be when fighting.

This also sends the most mixed signals in terms of what to build. It wants Karma to be close, it asks her to be tanky. Especially since it has a casting time of 0.5s, using the heal in a clutch moment, when you are squishy, becomes nearly impossible. Surprisingly often you can see the mantra and W go on cooldown, but dying before getting the heal, feeling cheated by the game. Considering the frequency of ignite, morellos and the availability of executioners, the missing%hp heal becomes less and less impressive.

Overall, this spell fits Karma so badly, it almost certainly needs to go. It would be a pity, if Karma didn't have a tether, but I have seen a lot of interesting tether suggestions, that could replace it. Sharing damage is a common theme, but also generally the ability to tether to allies seems to be requested a lot. If this returns, we need to consider, that this shouldn't only profit duo-lane Karma, but also needs to have uses for solo-Karma.

Karma's E

So, this is currently the spell, that makes Karma viable as a support. The problem is, the mantra effect of this is basically a combination of talisman and locket. In terms of design, is it good that the only unique utility a champion brings is something, that most supports can buy anyways? They even fare considerably better (40% speed for 3s VS 60% speed for 1.5s // 345 AoE shield vs 205+0.4AP) and can be used on a support with a "real" ultimate.

The other issue is, that a lot of Karma fans miss her shieldbomb. It was a unique damage spell and part of her identity for 4 years. When removing it Riot argued, that it might become too obnoxious in teamfights, if it procd the improved passive too often. This made me wonder a bit; is it really a good design choice to remove a core identity of a champion to improve his power? Intuitively I would say no, but I am not a game designer after all.

Karma's R

Okay, real talk: Karma's mantra must change. Either what it does to the base abilities, at what frequency or with how many charges. We must admit, that this makes for a problematic early game and needs a fix. Either this is intended to make her lvl 1-6 her power window (what it barely does) and let her fall off purposely on lvl 6+, or we drastically decrease what her mantra'd abilites can do at lower levels (to even the curve). We could allow her abilities to level differently, not only in stats (like increasing explosion radius, longer tether ranges, etc.). We must admit, that making spells feel like ultimates, but not perform as some is like taking morphine; it fixes things only superficially. We must either embrace, that Karma will never have an ultimate (Jayce, Elise and Udyr might want to have a word here) or that it does perform like a tri-ultimate, that should come at a higher cost.

A dude on the EU boards once suggested - if you really want 2 charges back - one could allow Mantra to double charge abilities. So she would either cast normal mantra (40s cd) to enhance a spell with a different effect, or use two charges (80s cd) to create an ultimate level spell. Personally I think it's rather elegant, to both reintroduce some of Karma's complexity, but still allow her to perform "real" ultimates. However, it would make Karma VERY complex (this can be good or bad) and HARD to balance. Because not only do all mantra abilities have to be equally strong/useful, but also double mantra'd abilities need to compete with each other AND two single mantra'd abilities. It would throw Karma out of a balanced state, but undoubtedly in a more interesting one. Another thought I had : If this would be too strong for early game, you could let her unlock the second charge at lvl6. This would keep her unique feeling, but even her power curve compared to other champions.

Summing up

If you are still reading this, I must congratulate you on your patience and durability. You are the 1%, one of the real die-hards and deserve a pat on the back, inspiring applause or a hug. Feel free to use this coupon the next time we meet in person and tell me which you want to redeem.

Please let me know which abilities of Karma you want to stay at all cost, which ones should change, which ones should be removed entirely. Remember to keep it civil and respectful, and lets try to work on a consensus! Also please upvote if you want more people to join the discussion!

Thanks :)

156 Comments

Aeolian Melodies3 votes

First of all, congrats on making such an extended and thoughtful thread about her. You clearly put a lot of thought into this.

I did like old Karma a lot (yes, I'm that kind of player), and didn't play the new one nearly as much. The reason why I left her out wasn't because she felt weak - arguably she feels stronger now than she did pre-rework - but because she felt boring and bland. Her Q is a low CD semi-long range skillshot that slow. R gives it a circular AoE that slows and deals damage after a short while (long enough that most people can walk out of it). Her W is a short range tether that eventually snares. R gives HP to Karma while she deals damage. Her E is a shield with decaying MS, R makes it team-wide. Her passive is a boring "hit people for reduced CD" thingy.

She feels boring, flavorless, and generic. I prefer champions that have a define feel to them, champions that have original mechanics (and they don't need to be overly complicated, I mean, I love Sona), and Karma just doesn't cut it anymore.

I think her best role is support now, since they removed shield-bombing I feel she simply does not have enough damage to be a relevant mid laner, however as support she faces the major problem that she lacks hard CC, which every currently popular support has (with the exception of Soraka, who makes up for it by having a buttload of sustain). Heck, hard CC is so important to the support role to make plays and peel that champions that are not supports get played bot lane due to their CC Annie Brand Kennen Shen . As support, once the laning phase is over her best asset is R-E, making her quite good in a "rush down" comp, however if I was planing a rush down comp, why didn't I just play Nami with Talisman or Righteous Glory?

Move her passive to her Mantra definition, and give her an actual passive. Make W a stun instead of a snare, or make it silence then root (so at least people can't break the tether with ease with their dash/blink), then maybe she has something going. I mean, the stun might be too much, but if freaking Soraka can have a silence+delayed root on an AoE, why couldn't Karma get one on her W?

SilverSquid1 votes

And there's already the first mindless downvote sigh Thank you for your kind comment though!

Yes, her Mantra currently fails to make her unique enough and she has nothing else. No mechanic that can be perfected, no unique ability or utility. And I think everybody agrees that passive is just... lame.

Yeah, a buff to her W would help her supporting, but if it can guarantee the root, you can also guarantee hitting the RQ. With a silence this would mean 0% counterplay. Personally, I just don't think the current W fits her kit at all. It was probably the worst kind of tether version they could've added to her kit. It doesn't have the ingenuity of the old tether and doesn't do anything on its own.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, a buff to her W would help her supporting, but if it can guarantee the root, you can also guarantee hitting the RQ. With a silence this would mean 0% counterplay. Personally, I just don't think the current W fits her kit at all. It was probably the worst kind of tether version they could've added to her kit. It doesn't have the ingenuity of the old tether and doesn't do anything on its own.

Well, it would not be guaranteed snare since she does not have any other immobilize in her kit, and people can still walk out when tethered; in its current state, I feel it is too easily broken even when she casts it from close range and they don't use any dash/blink to get out. Self-casting E seems to be the best way to proc the damn thing, which is odd for a support.

SilverSquid1 votes

Self-casting E seems to be the best way to proc the damn thing, which is odd for a support.

Good point. You need to give up your best support spell to nearly guarantee hitting a weak root, that takes longer to apply than it lasts, which still is your best CC. I mean, I did play her support for all of Season 4&5, but saying it like this feels incredibly stupid.

The thing is, the E speed boost is enough to guarantee hitting it, as you have superior movementspeed and they cant use their mobility/CC spells. Not saying current W is any good, but I can't see Riot adding the silence this way.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

Good point. You need to give up your best support spell to nearly guarantee hitting a weak root, that takes longer to apply than it lasts, which still is your best CC. I mean, I did play her support for all of Season 4&5, but saying it like this feels incredibly stupid.

The thing is, the E speed boost is enough to guarantee hitting it, as you have superior movementspeed and they cant use their mobility/CC spells. Not saying current W is any good, but I can't see Riot adding the silence this way.

I don't think they would, they've been on a witch hunt for targeted silences. Out of her 3 spells, though, this is the one that feels the most underwhelming and the least Mantra-worthy. It needs some love one way or another.

SilverSquid2 votes

Because targeted silences have 0% counterplay and are thus boring, from a gameplay design. I am also not sure whether it fits Karma's thematicly^^.

The point about not being mantra-worthy is true tho. It was your highest trading damage against mobile targets before 5.10. Now it's only usable for the root, which is still 2s at level 13 (because it's leveled last). Solo Karma doesn't profit from it the root, duo Karma can't hit it reliably.

I am still wondering if the person who decided shieldbomb should go for a better passive and damage should be removed for a longer root even had played Karma before. I thought "hurting enemies and protecting allies with the same spell" was Karma's endgame fantasy, and not "literally not doing that - more often!"?

IxtaliKing3 votes

Those are some pretty spot on points you made there. I think one of Riot's biggest issues with Karma is that they don't want to commit her to a particular lane, and I think it's about time they focused her around mid and support. Karma has picked up some new players who like her because they see her as a "kite mage" like Ahri, and so they're content with her being an RQ bot. Here's how I would change Karma:

Passive - New passive, adjust current passive to accommodate the shield bomb and move it to ult. One thing Karma players have some kind of concensus on.

Inner Flame/Soulflare - This spell is fine, Soulflare is a bit front loaded but also fine because it has tons of counter play.

Focused Resolve - Revert AP ratio from .9 to .6. I think the purpose of this spell as a whole needs to change, I'd say giving this spell a static root duration of 1.5 at all levels and offering an ally targetting function be a more appropriate direction. Tethering enemies for 2 seconds to trigger root and ally tethering for 5/6 seconds of increased % damage or attack speed. They could even add a passive to focused resolve that retains half of the buff when the tether ends while the ally is within 1000 units of Karma, for example; 20% attack speed when tethered, passive 10% when tether ends.

Renewal - Remove additional CC component and restore damage component, the 3.25 second root at level 16 feels more like a meaningless gimmicky bragging right, than a cohesive asset to her kit. Karma does not need to compete in the CC department because it's not what she's picked for, she sucks for CC as both a mage and support. Karma should be picked for good damage and strong utility, let high damage and strong cc be Morgana and Orianna's distinctions in their subclass. Renewal was great before 5.10 because it acted like an equaliser, it sustained her and dealt good damage which meant she be used effectively to counter assassins like Zed and Fizz.

As well as increasing whatever bonuses Focused Resolve gives to the target ally, it could also have an on hit heal for a flat amount + missing hp.

Inspire - This spell is fine.

Defiance - Remove the "super mega shield" and bring back the shield bomb, this is the one thing from pre-rework Karma that shouldn't have even been on the table when considering changes to her. This spell would have given Karma excellent synergy with juggernauts and divers, this spell is what made her distinct. It might also work well to have the shield increase based on the target's missing hp.

With these changes Karma can be an anti assassin utility mage who has strong synergy with Juggernauts and Divers, and also has her depth and duality aspects restored.

Catastrop3 votes

Just give her back her fans and I'll be satisfied. I loved those fans, they were stylish...and deadly. On a more serious note, I really think the ult should be reverted to a charge system and her passive completely revamped. Right now, there's hardly any accomplishment that comes with doing something with her. With the charge system, you could easily be useful throughout the entire teamfight because you had the option to either use the charges to both do damage and sustain your team or offer some utility while doing damage. With the rework she could still do this with Shield Nuking but with that being taken out, she either completely commits to offering DPS or just supports the team while throwing some damage. She could do both but she just ends up feeling awkward and stuck in the middle of a 2nd support and eh mage role.

SilverSquid3 votes

Yeah, I always enjoy those fan-weapon-types. But honestly, I don't know where I'd put them on Karma :-/.

The 2-charge system definetely had its downsides, but how it asked the player to... well, choose wisely when to spend them made the player feel as wise as she was supposed to in her lore. Quite ingenious imo.

To me she was unique and interesting, because she always offered her damage and some utility. She could slow the enemies and deal damage, or protect herself and deal damage, or protect the team and deal damage. But this only worked if the enemies made themselves vulnerable to it, by being too agressive. Thematically quite on spot with her character design.

A shame this was gutted in 5.10

In terms of gameplay this was a bit problematic though. Currently I am more in favour of a "damage manipulating mage", because it would be unique in LoL and it would fit her design quite well.

roflSong3 votes

**Classic Karma had a duality that dissolved when they revamped her. **

She had a **damage **spell that could aid her allies and an **aid **spell that could hurt enemies. She combined that with the ability to keep allies nearer enemies, and a passive that could **masterfully **bait. _The thing about Classic Karma that most people never worked out was that she was best both with **and ** against **melee **champs. _

Like Ryze, Swain, and Vlad, she was one of a few mages who liked being up close and personal. She excelled at it, and in a way that focused **assisting **her team in fights instead of just doing raw damage or having hard cc. She had such versatility in where to go and what to do because of the **duality **of her spells, the help/hurt that happened **simultaneously **rather than having to choose, like Lulu does with Whimsy and Help, Pix! That Classic Karma was so niche was due to there were far fewer melee powerhouses for her to work with. (Fiora was a welcome breeze of change. What a beautiful and deadly combo! But I digress.)

Her original rework meant that her damage/heal became a min-max damage-only spell. Now, if you don't mantra, it's weak and easily missed/dodged, or if they hide behind minions and you've mantra'd it then you're out of luck.

Her shield turned into a min-max as well. Either it's a good shield for one or a better shield for many. And with the latest changes it can't even hurt anymore, you just have to hope that your shield gives your teammate enough time to kill the enemy off themselves.

The new tether is left out of touch with her (now) kiting style, and they gutted it's slow and move speed boost to fluff up her other spells. It's an O Shi* spell that is too late to use to save you by the time you are in range. If they want to take her from up front and make her a kite mage, that's... acceptable... as long as her whole kit acts like it. But it does not. Her tether is a complete disservice, but I feel that her rework was done in an era when Riot was trying to make changes that kept things largely the same. I don't think the concept of scraping a spell was in their sights back then like it is now. Riot was trying to change without changing. For example, we had how many visual updates before they stopped releasing classic skins? Karma Sejuani Trundle (LeeSin)

_And I cannot stress this enough, I am still **livid **that they took her unique fan weapons away. There was **zero reason **to take her fans and make her shake her jazz hands at everyone like the vast majority of mages. I understand that a decision was made and they did not have the resources to reanimate all of her spells once the community saw and spoke out. But it would be deplorable for her to get a another rework if the fans to not come back. _

IxtaliKing3 votes

It seems to me the best way to unite Karma players is behind her fans, shield bomb, new passive and pre 5.10 tether with an ally tethering function added. Whether that tether behaves more like soul bond with a different buff than ms to the ally is to be debated. Any arguments about Karma being "Overloaded" are invalid, she is the "Enlightened One", having many ways of approaching situations and rewarding WISE decisions is what she's about.

Finally in regards to those who for whatever reason want Karma to remain exactly as she is, they cannot and should not be taken seriously in any discussion regarding the future of Karma. Riot can go make them another homeless generalist champ with no identity if that's what they want, these people have no respect and/or understanding of Karma as a character at all. Riot should have more respect for the old Karma mains and those who care for her as a character and show us a little more consideration. Ignoring the issues won't make them go away.

Evenstar2 votes

Someone give this man a cookie.

Warden Karma2 votes

It seems to me the best way to unite Karma players is behind her fans, shield bomb, new passive and pre 5.10 tether with an ally tethering function added.

I think so too. At least in those 4 Points, the Karma Community is mostly united.

So practically:

Fans added.

Passive: For every 0,5% maximum Health difference between your allies (including you) and the enemy Champions within 1000 Range, you gain 1% increased Shield, Heal and Damage. This Bonus Caps at 25% (meaning a 50% Health difference).

Note: That means you only get a Bonus if you+your allies have a lower maximum % Health than the enemy. I think that suits her more as she will "even" the situation with this Passive rather than to "turn" it, so more like a Balance theme (hope you got what I mean).

W: To make it castable on allies means, we have to chop off some power (look at Lulus abilities which can be enemy7ally targeted they only have 1 effect). It would be possible to only make RW castable on allies though. And I think for what it should be doing... everyone would want to have something different.

Hmm.. Ok one suggestion that works with the rest of her kit would be: Enemy: After 2 Seconds the enemy is rooted for 1/1,25/1,5/1,75/2 Seconds. The bounded enemy will suffer a 50% increased Slow from Innerflame/soulflare (hitting it with Q will slow them for 37,5%/75% instead of 25%/50%.) (Maybe shorten the time the root needs to pull off when hitted by Q/RQ? Or adding adding Damage to Q/RQ when got hit while bounded.)

Ally: uhmm... maybe adding Armor/magic resistance? not sure Passive: If your bounded partner gains a speedbuff, you will also gain the same and vice versa.

Hmm actually like the W empowring your Q slow and sharing (your) MS ^^

RW: Root/ Damage when enemies are touching the thether? Enemy: The %Missing health selfheal Ally: If you shield your ally you will also be shielded for the same value and vice versa.

RE: Deals 80/160/240/300 (+70% AP) magic Damage around the target, granting allies around half the value as shield, while the primary target will get the Bonus to its Shield. All allies gain a 60% Movementspeed buff for 1,5 Seconds. ** R:** Gains a mini Gathering Fire (like 1-2 Seconds instead of 2-3 or so)

BastionKross3 votes

As someone who has never played old fan-using Karma, I only have experience with new Karma.

New Karma is the embodiment of the word "generic". She pokes, she shields, she CCs a bit. Well, that just described anyone from Sona to Lulu to Janna. But unlike Karma, those guys have niches. Janna is the ultimate peeler, Sona has AoE buffs out the wazoo, and Lulu is the utility mage. And they can all poke to different degrees of effectiveness. Karma can be all three at the same time, but not nearly as well as the more specialized picks. She's a jack of all trades without a role of her own.

But unlike the other champion that's League's premiere jack of all trades LeeSin Karma's stats and kit are gimped to make up for her versatility. That makes her both balanced, and ineffective, all at once. If you want to peel, why pick Karma over Janna? If you want a utility mage, Lulu does it better. If you like using the RE combo as Karma in teamfights, why not just play Sona? There's almost nothing left in Karma's kit that can't be done better by another champion.

The easiest way to solve the problem is to come up with a niche and change Karma's kit to fill that niche. But which niche? Karma fans will never agree, because Karma is so versatile that her mains play her umpteen different ways. So at some point you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that you're not going to please everybody here; not even close.

I don't play Karma enough to make suggestions on what niche to make her or what changes need to be made, but I felt that the things I said above are the core issues she has and must overcome before she has her own place in League of Legends.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Well, they could start by building her around her initially intended lane - Mid. As a utility mage she was nice before 5.10, all she needed was a new passive and an ally function for her W/RW. As a support there is no niche for her to have, however, as a mage could have a similar niche to Lissandra; anti-assassin, but with aoe utility instead of aoe cc. That's what old Karma was after all.

Warden Karma2 votes

Hi there,

I am die hard Karma fan and you might remember me as I regulary post a Thread about Karma. I agree it is very hard to come with a "perfect" Karma since everyone basically wants something else. Also Karma's current kit has a lot of "hidden" or not "hidden" Problems, such as her basic Q paling when compared to other primary damage sourced of a mage (see Lux E). Its the same with her other basic Abilities, her W is a dealyed CC and that is "meh" cause often enough it feels like eternity to pull off as you need the snare now, her Mixed Shield-Ms is worse compared to other mixed Shield/heal-MS boosts.

Currently, I am working on a new "Mega-post" which also discusses why Karma's basic Abilities pale in comparison to similiar Abilities/kits. (and doing some new potential concepts for her - only needs to be colored).

At the Moment I try to fuse new Karma and old Karma Kit for an example Rework - and since I found your Thread I might share a little thoughts (a part of what i have got so far).

(Summarized)

I am curiuos how far there is agreement or disagreement with this.

[**Identity: **]

A versatile Mage, who can combine Abilities to powerfull effects and even the chances to win if her Team is behind, becoming more important as the battle proceeds.

Short Overview: Basic Abilities: Tweaked from New Karma Mantra Abilities: And mix of Old+ New Karma's Mantras

Basic Abilities should work together, Basic Abilities should support Mantra'd Abilities. Mantra'd Abilities should "have the Spirit of a resilience" (a karmatic Aspect) and all Mantra's should deal at least around medium Damage.

[Passive:]

Should make Karma's kit actually feel karmatic. Increases the Damage, Shield and Heal of Karma’s Abilities by 2% for each 1% difference between your team and the enemy Team within 1000 Range. This Bonus caps at 25%.

Why not simply based on missing % Health? Because the Passive is meant to make changes “equal” for both teams; %missing Health would increase the Values even when Both teams are at 25% Health or worse: you would always “want” to be low health (one of the reasons her old Passive was removed).

[Q]

A mini Soulflare with only 25% slow and a Detonation Damage of around 20/ 40/ 60/ 80/ 100 (+20%AP)

Why a Mini Souldflare? to hit Q you have to go in an "akward" position; this can be seen as a "bait": risk being harassed or come closer to her, potentially increasing your and her damage. Note: The dotantion can not hit itself, so its more of a "indirect" buff for her W. Also the little slowing field works better with the rest of her kit.

[RQ]

Like Heavenly wave (yes it becomes conic, passing though minions, but a bit shorter), but also leaving the slowfield, which detonates (same damage). It only heals Karma for a base + missing Health, but one more ally Champion for each enemy Champion hit.

Why? Cause I like Heavenly wave and I think its important and a great Ability to emphazise Karma's theme.

[W]

Like New Karma's, exept that the tether binds after 2/1,9/1,8/1,7/1,6 Seconds.

[RW]

Can be casted on allies (and Minions/pets) and lasts for 6 Seconds. If the target is an enemy, it get rooted normally from the basic w. Enemies touching the bound are damaged and rooted briefly.

Why? I think the old tether mechanic is very unique and with proper visuals/ effects it will feel good to use.

[E]

Unchanged

[RE]

Increases Shield value of the Target and grants AOE MS. Deals the Shieldvalue as AOE damage.

[R]

1 Mantra. Grants 1/1,5/2 CDR for Mantra when damaging enemy Champions.


For "Poking": A good Karma will go for Q+RE or bait you to come closer for W+Q or even go close and do her full combo of W+Q+RE. (I know Karma wont be any longer able for doing that long range poke burst RQ with these changes, but still she can poke a bit)

Your Team is low Health in battle and/or you need more zoning? RQ You need AOE CC? RW You need a fat single target shield and/or Burst Damage and/or a engage/disangage? RE

You can combine a lot of basic Abilities and basic abilities with Mantra'd ones.

I hope you got a little picture of what I wanted to say and how this example kit would interact with itself. Got a little long though.

EDIT: We may need a "Karma Discussion forum" for that, like an group of (die hard) Karma mains, who discuss why and how she should be changed. I think its impossible for one to consider everything and its easily to run alone in a bad idea etc. I am convinced if we work together, we will come to a very good post with very solid arguments and very good Ability Ideas, maybe even new Concepts (like Model etc.) No really I think a united group would be able to reach so much more.

#Karma fans unite!

SilverSquid1 votes

Oh hey there. No, I don't know you, but I've only switched to the NA boards about a week ago. I checked your profile and your posts seem to generally create a lot of upvotes. In EUW I felt like I was the only one posting about Karma, it's great to see some thought and effort put into her by other people!

I don't think Riot will take any of our countless rework suggestions, but we can only hope that one day they will maybe get inspired by one aspect. Or at least they can infer what the community wants. Regarding specifics:

Increases the Damage, Shield and Heal of Karma’s Abilities by 2% for each 1% difference between your team and the enemy Team within 1000 Range.

I like the teambased approach to this. It seems to make more sense. However, there are some problems with this approach; Is it %hp or total hp? %hp seems to make more sense, but even then, wouldn't a 50%hp tank be of more use than a 80%hp ADC? Considering her passive just needs a 12.5% difference for full effect, a 75%hp tank, 100%hp Karma would trigger it against two 100%hp targets.

Additionally, it asks Karma to stand in the middle of two teams to maximize this, right? Is that a good place for a squishy mage? It's also really hard to visually convey the amount this passive would add, which makes it feel a bit clonky. You can't propperly predict how strong your abilities will be.

A mini Soulflare with only 25% slow and a Detonation Damage of around 20/ 40/ 60/ 80/ 100 (+20%AP)

I actually like her basic Q. You just feel good for landing it. You are right though, it's a bit awkward as your main damage tool, but I think playing around with mantra should make up for it. But.... opinions^^...

Your damage values are also reeeaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllyyyy low? Are they only a ~third of the life values on purpose?

It only heals Karma for a base + missing Health, but one more ally Champion for each enemy Champion hit.

If it's a cone it's already hard enough to hit everybody anyways. As it affects both enemies and champions it already asks you to hit as many of both as possible. I don't think the extra condition is needed.

I am currently a fan of making RQ a mix of old and new RQ, but not with the cone approach; I'd make RQ a targeted skillshot (think Lux E) that deals current%hp damage and heals missing%hp. It makes Karma's damage less awkward, has an aspect that you can always improve upon, and has this "equalizing" feeling, you are talking about. Also propper aim/timing instead of walking up to people makes more sense for a mage.

Like New Karma's, exept that the tether binds after 2/1,9/1,8/1,7/1,6 Seconds.

That's a first. I've never thought about reducing the binding time. It would both increase the dps, which makes sense, but also works with the increased mobility lategame. I mean, I don't like W at all, because it fails to deliver the tether feeling, but I like this idea! It's so simple, yet effective.

Can be casted on allies (and Minions/pets) and lasts for 6 Seconds. If the target is an enemy, it get rooted normally from the basic w. Enemies touching the bound are damaged and rooted briefly.

Is the total damage increased? Does this tripple the total damage if it lasts three times as long? Does the rest stay the same? Does it still heal missing%hp? Does it do anything if targetting an ally?

Increases Shield value of the Target and grants AOE MS. Deals the Shieldvalue as AOE damage.

I guess the AoE shield is removed? Erm... don't make the damage dependant on the shield value. First of all, shields always shield more than damage spells deal damage. Secondly I think it's better if the mantra values scale with MANTRA levels and not with BASIC ABILITY levels. Otherwise she can't use all three mantras in lane, because the non-leveled would underperform (flexibility ftw). So pre-5.10 values should suit you (up to 300+0.6AP damage, up to 150+0.3 AoE shield).

There is something else I'd like to mention. Old Karma had a nice ingenuity in her kit; her mantra unlocked different spell rotations. Q-W-RE would be 3 damage spells. But RQ-W-E could be completely used for defense, without harming a single opponent. This could be done because mantra changed what spells were useable for. That's why I despise that currently her RQ and RE just give you more of the same stuff. It's just not the same.

We may need a "Karma Discussion forum" for that, like an group of (die hard) Karma mains, who discuss why and how she should be changed.

I think there had once been a Karma community), but they were only focused on her old kit. I dunno what happened to them, but maybe they gave up? EDIT: hold on a second, that was YOUR post, holy noodles :D We already talked back then^^!!!!! Either way: yes community please.... I'd just love it if we could get some discussion with Riot going ._.

Evenstar1 votes

Silver, Shyndora and I didn't give up LOL. It just so happens some time after brainstorming, I got busy with job offers and had to appear infrequently on the thread. Shyndora was playing around with many ideas and and came up with lots of brainstorming, but some of them were not thematic of her. She also came up with ideas of having Karma store bonus AP on her passive and the entire concept was pretty confusing because it demanded too much things. She also thought of switching Q's skillshot in an AoE, putting in R->E's mantra effect to have knockback. My job interview got the better of my time and I stopped contacting her for awhile, I suspect she's busy with her degree at the moment.

As far as votes go, I think that was the most upvote a Karma thread ever got post-rework and in to 2015.

SilverSquid1 votes

Yeah, I just saw, you are still working in that thread. I assumed you stopped because you wouldn't answer two of my posts there.

Evenstar1 votes

I have steered away from "rework Old Karma" in to more of "Why Karma can' be reworked." Understanding her current problems were more rewarding than attempting to just force Riot in reworking her a second time. As much as I want to demand for a second rework with her old kit as a basis for improvement, I have currently pooled my attention on to understanding why she's not being looked at. Which brings us to her talk of a confusing identity, lack of niche and just overall a heap of mess.

SilverSquid1 votes

So, just like me, you ended up at the root of things. But isn't this the best way of having an interesting discussion with Riot anyways? Adressing the issues instead of forcing ideas upon them?

PS: I'll still love brainstorming about what could be done :P

Evenstar1 votes

On the contrary, instead of having nowhere to go, our ideas were all over the place, courtesy of Shyndora who did a ton of thought and brainstorming, unfortunately it was so vast that we ended up going nowhere, and started losing a bit of direction. Shyndora and I were only a 2 man team, for that one week, I actually contacted her and requested for her Skype ID, we then worked on a reimagined kit for Karma using her old abilities and tried improve it. We did a 12 hour rotation due to time zone differences, I monitored the thread on the morning, Shyndora monitors the thread during midnight.

On top of that, we did lack a bit of context at that time. It was just solely focusing on her kit and less about her problems, so the moment one or two people downvoted the thread, Shyndora immediately messaged me on Skype with new ideas just to get the votes back up. We had idea and wanted to stick to her old kit, but we lacked the courage to stand up for ourselves. Shyn herself had never play Old Karma too so she was a bit left behind when it came to how she wanted to justify her ideas, but I'll say this, the girl has ideas and she liked Old Karma so much, she created a Warcraft 3 model based on her, tweaking codes here and there and achieving a Warcraft version of Karma, which was cute.

There's a lot of factors like I said, I stopped attending to said thread because I was attending job interviews. I'm a fresh grad with a degree and I was looking for jobs, I worked on Karma with Shyndora last year because I felt that I had the free time. It was nearing the year end, job opportunities were getting lesser so I thought I could use my free time to help reviving the Karma rework again. Our main goal was to rally up Karma fans who were dedicated to the cause, but I don't recall seeing the fans being as active now.

Ever since the immobile mage update was teased, I saw a sudden rise in Karma-related threads. I also noted players like you, KingKold93, Hiemal, Inquisitor Karma, and a few much more supportive players surfacing. What we lacked in, you had it. I admire your courage of being able to keep your Karma threads constantly updated and every day you spend a few hours typing a new Karma thread on gameplay just to get people's attention.

Furthermore, even though I could write, you've definitely put everything that I wanted to say in a better form, so these days I pool my free time and willing attention in making arguments more convincing, explaining what are Karma's problems, and doing myself and everyone else a favor by compiling threads and what not. Eventually, I'll be starting my work and I won't be as active anymore, but I hope to be around, able to take time off to hop in and be present when Riot starts talking about Karma. I'm 23 and I'm already off the League demographics for most parts, my life goals are different and my attention with League has decreased over the months, so it's practically up to you guys to keep things going if Riot starts touching on Karma.

If you want to get in touch with Shyndora, I'd be glad to pass you her Skype ID. Right now, I think our biggest issue is gathering Karma fans in to one spot and presenting ideas a group.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I used to look at you and Shyndora's Karma threads on here before I really started posting properly (was shy lol). The biggest issue I noticed is that suggesting the Karma rework be basically undone got people's backs up, so it couldn't really go anywhere. For me reworked Karma was the 1st thing I saw about the game and in part drew me in, so I liked it. When I learned about the original Karma and saw how passionate people were about it I could see why.

So in a very Karma like way, I'm looking for the path in-between (lel). I'd like to see fans or at least a fan back on Karma, I'd like to see an ally tether function and the shield bomb that cannot be stressed enough it seems. Reworked Karma mains in general and new Karma players have become accustomed to the current Q/RQ, so even though Heavenly wave was a good spell and perfect thematic fit for her it has too much opposition. Karma's new Q/RQ was seems only justified by her lore, but it's cool.

Evenstar2 votes

I think now that you, Shyndora and Silver are well acquainted, you guys can consider setting up skype chatrooms to brainstorm, and call in the rest of the Karma fans you know.

Vistha Kai2 votes

NOTE: This might be analogous to the upcoming Cass rework. It's really hard to find a good solution, if everyone asks for completely opposite stuff.

Wrong. Repertoir asked a question which was already answered multiple times for over a year. Also, people are actually really united when it comes to Cassiopeia. "Being E-spambot is bad." Now, how to exactly deal with the situation? This is where dozens if not hundreds of ideas come and it's completely understandable to have different opinions on matters like this. This isn't a "1+1=?" type of problem afterall.

Nobody ever spoke about Karma until Riot pulled the relaunch out of their a-hole.

Now, a part of both cases is pretty similar.

The fact Riot completely didn't give a shit.

SilverSquid1 votes

Also, people are actually really united when it comes to Cassiopeia. "Being E-spambot is bad."

I didn't read too much into the comments about Cass, so you might be right. I think the post showed quite fittingly what I was talking about though.

Nobody ever spoke about Karma until Riot pulled the relaunch out of their a-hole.

Well, Old Karma was a problem in terms of counterplay and playability. Pre-5.10 rework in fact did have "room for improvement" as Riot put it. But not many of the changes would've made it, if Riot had just worked with the community, because both reworks tried to make her more playable, but did poop on her character design and uniqueness.

I do believe with some more communication she could've indeed become better and could've kept her uniqueness.

Vistha Kai3 votes

I do believe with any communication...

There we go.

Pre-5.10 rework in fact did have "room for improvement" as Riot put it.

Did they? If I recall correctly the justification for the relaunch was "we did absolutely everything and we couldn't salvage anything".

SilverSquid5 votes

I do believe with any communication...

Heh. Fair enough! I mean, there at least was some one-way-communcation via twitter.... who doesn't love one-way-communcation?

If I recall correctly the justification for the relaunch was "we did absolutely everything and we couldn't salvage anything".

I've read the patchnotes so many times now, I think I could recite them out loud without problems. I mean, other than getting an aneurysm. "Right now, [Karma is] someone we've put on our radar as an opportunity to improve."

My favourite parts are those:

"we just wanted to highlight more of Karma's unique strengths (utility and control)" Yes, because actually her unique strength was dealing damage while offering utility at the same time. Which you removed. Nice highlight.

"....Karma does a number of things well (mid-range poke, movement-based team engagement, solo lane dueling) (...) While these changes do reduce some of Karma's dueling threat...." TECHNICALLY we did highlight it, by removing it!

"we're trying giving her access to an end game fantasy" Whose Karma ever had the endgame fantasy of dealing massive damage with a shieldbomb... right? Haha..... right?

"note on removing the damage on Mantra'd W / E - a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?)" And now RQ is just best in lane and RE is best in a teamfight. Instead of having it dependant on matchups, line of sight, health percentages, builds, engages, teamcomps.....Context!

"much stronger utility potential in R-W / R-E" Yes, because having a 300+0.6AP nuke and passive procs is less useful, than having a 20 better main shield and a 55+0.1AP better AoE shield.

I am sorry, I am getting salty, but whenver I have to think about them again, I feel so pissed off....

IxtaliKing3 votes

"Super root? Mega shield?"... and what? Super poke? You'd almost think Karma theme was the trinity, as opposed to duality. Reading that gets me "super" salty everytime too lol. Karma fans are almost unanimously united behind giving her a new passive, returning her shield bomb and giving her her fans back. So riot can start there, and make history for the 1st time they've ever admitted they truely messed up and they're gonna fix it by undoing what they've done. I bet that Rickless never even liked Karma, that's why he did her like that.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Ah, I see.

I was thinking about whole relaunch, while you were talking about last nail in the post-rework Karma's coffin.

And yeah, the person responsible for those changes had no freaking idea who Karma actually is.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol I love the way you put that. Yeah my issue is with 5.10, instead of taking a direction with Karma that would have brought her little closer to her roots, they chose gimmicks with the excuse of increasing her mantra diversity. Objectively speaking, the 5.10 changes failed at its main objective tackling something which wasn't actually an issue.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Not only failed, but did the exact opposite.

Especially considering Q became practically the only way to reduced Mantra's CD in teamfights.

delonix2 votes

It's obvious that you care a lot about Karma, but I'm not really understanding why she needs to be changed at all. You do a good job of covering why she shouldn't be changed in the "Does Karma even need change?" section and the following section. I also think that while the Karma community is (or at least was) heavily split on the 3.5 rework, the 5.10 changes debate was very civil and constructive and the consensus was that the changes didn't really give her a clear identity, but they were overall nice QoL changes to have.

Perhaps the problem is that in spite of the work you clearly put into organizing this post, it still comes across as disorganized. There's no clear argument about why Karma still needs changes. When I read "I think Riot lost interest in touching Karma," that seemed totally out of the blue to me. I thought everything leading up to that suggested that Karma was in a good place despite her lack of clear identity and it was the schism in the Karma community that made it look like people were actually unhappy with her. Beyond this, I think that Riot hasn't "lost interest," they just have no real reason to try to fix what isn't broken.

I do agree with you that Karma doesn't have a distinct role, but I both enjoy her well-rounded kit personally and think that it's necessary to balance against each champion having a hyper-specific role to fill.

You also don't differentiate very clearly between the 3.5 rework and the 5.10 changes, which might confuse someone with less background knowledge about Karma. And then suddenly the end of the post is a rework suggestion for Karma, which is something you argue early in the post is something that divides the Karma community.

Finally, and this is more of a nit-picking thing, I'm not sure "glass-cannon mage" is "the current most successful solution." GraveInvitation is a Karma main who finished season 5 in diamond, and unless I'm mistaken, he or she still builds fairly tanky.

As far as the rework suggestions go, I'm not convinced that anything needs to change, or even should change. I think Karma is fine just the way she is now. She might not have a clearly defined role, but that allows people to build her in different ways, play her in different roles, etc., in short, some of the things people usually talk about as being good about Karma.

IxtaliKing5 votes

I see what you mean about the clarity, for me personally my big beef is with the 5.10 changes; they were unnecessary, uncalled for and they trashed her identity. Karma is actually my favourite champ and hurts me to the core that they already tried to fix something which wasn't broken in 5.10. If I could have my way I'd just say revert her to pre 5.10. The super shield is unnecessary, the shield bomb was better, it was iconic, it was unique, it was Karma. The super root is nothing but a gimmick, Karma was about duality, now she's about trinity with a Mantra for super damage, super cc and super utility. I understand that some people might not see the issue or might enjoy her the way she is, I can even still enjoy her the way she is, but right now she just isn't Karma. There is no argument I have seen or could even imagine that can justify this current iteration of Karma. The 5.10 changes may have been okay for some who just don't care either way, but for most of us 3.5 and pre-rework Karma mains she's been deleted from the game, there's NOTHING left of her.

Illgore2 votes

Hi SilverSquid, ty for this great post, everything you said is soooo true that it hurts..^^ I for myself am one of those few rare people who can say that Karma was the 1st champ that I unlocked back in end of S1. I was so in love with the "old Karma kit" that I still hold a grudge against the rework. Don't get me wrong, I like the new Karma kit too, but it's not Karma anymore. More like Karmas sister or cousin..^^

Back on topic, as you said I also think that the old kit would fit atm very well, seeing how other new champs work and depend on team/enemy knowing your kit. I for myself wished only for a lil root for the Mantra W at the end, for her old kit. Even without that change, I would be happy just the see her old kit comes back.

On the other Hand if I where to change her new kit, the only thing that comes into my mind are her passive and the fact that she is so stat hungry. Why not solve both of them together? give her passive any of her desired stats, either:

  • some kind of Manareg
  • or her old Bait passive: low Hp > more AP
  • or give her some CDR, so she can focus on other stats to build.

Yeah, Karma is in a really messed up state due to how different her fanbase sees her new kit and how it should be. The only real solution I see is a really difficult one. If Riot really wants to satisfy as much of Karmas Fanbase as possible, they need to bring back old Karma while keeping the new one. Sounds impossible (lore whise)? Maybe not, you could say that old Karma has disappeared somehow (kidnapped, lost memory or something like that). And since Karma has an important position and Ionia tries to show no weakness, they put one of her relatives who looked similar to her into her role, to keep things going. And now, the true Karma could come back, to regain her position in Ionia. The new Karma would need a name change thou, but I guess that would be the least problem here^^.

What do you think mates, would you love to see 2 Karmas?^^

PS: I hope my English is comprehensible..^^

edit: imho what RIOT should have really done back before the rework: The biggest problem of old Karma was the low pickrate and therefore the lack of understanding her kit for her teammates (the community). What she really needed was some kind of commercials like they did with "the odd one" playing and showcasing Maokai (another low pick hero at that time). Riot should do more of that kind of stuff for the less played heroes to solve problems like that.

Aezanthya2 votes

Karma should be an utility mage. Not a support.

They're trying so hard to make her fair in both roles and are failing miserably.

Her mantra Q needs to change. It does a lot of damage yes, but against a good team... you'll rarely ever hit their squishies with it.

AhhShucks2 votes

I just want shield bombs back, I don't give a shit what they do with the rest of her abilities. Shield bombs were so much fun.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Tbh if we could get the shield bomb back, I'd never complain again lol. Would be a big win in itself, at least Karma would then be bringing something of her own to the game.

Pawn of hearts1 votes

no she good just the way she is. leave her be.. just make her more sexy period. by that I mean change the splash art and all the crapy other splash art.

IxtaliKing5 votes

Lmao you don't even play her, and I wonder why that is...

Pawn of hearts1 votes

{quoted}

Lmao you don't even play her, and I wonder why that is...

because she ugly, my sis actually play her so I play her form time to time, when she in the worst situation where she cant win so she ask me to play, but I gotta say she have alot of damage.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Yeah, her RQ is super front loaded. But if you miss it gg, RQ is everything to her now (damage wise). That's the flawed design we're discussing here.

Pawn of hearts1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, her RQ is super front loaded. But if you miss it gg, RQ is everything to her now (damage wise). That's the flawed design we're discussing here.

yes you are ight "damage wise" she have damage but it will be useless if it miss, since she only have 2 damage ability. the allied buff is nice, make her to be able to have sivir ult at lv 2 if desired, which also give shield to a single target /or the entire allied if she choose. she also have root which lock a target down for her q to be easily hit, and set up kill. overall I love her ability, the only problem she has is the lack of "sexy skin" and splash art in my opinion LOL.

IxtaliKing5 votes

If you played her before the 5.10 patch you'd see why most of us are mad at her current state, she was a lot more fun and had many ways approaching situations (as an "Enlightened One" should). Right now she might be balanced/healthy, but she's not Distinct, she's not Cohesive and she's certainly not true to her theme.

You're right though, her splashes definitely need updating, her Sun Goddess splash is horrific and doesn't look even remotely similar to the in game model. The in game model looks good though.

evilsforreals1 votes

I really appreciated your insights into Karma. She is very dear to me, and I'm actually solely playing her on a new account while i'm in Korea.

I feel that Karma's strength could very well be in her versatility, if they gave her Mantra'd ultimate's more variety.

I also play Heroes of Newerth, and they have a character similar in kit-style to Karma named Aluna

Q- A chain stun that stuns up to 4 people, increasing the stun per person, and stealing attack speed from them W-A long range skillshot that reduces damage per enemy hit E-A movement speed boost that allows you to create a mimic that walks back, and you can reactivate the ability to teleport to the mimic. R-Empowers her next basic ability. Gains 1/2/3 charges. The charges have a long refresh cooldown.

So it's the same concept as Karma, but they really made each empowered spell unique.

Empowered Q doubles the number of enemies that can be stunned, retains the attack speed steal longer, and DOUBLES the stun on the last person struck, meaning an enemy can be stunned up to ~5 seconds.

Empowered W makes the skillshot global, and removes the damage reduction when hitting a target.

Empowered E increases the movement speed boost, and if you teleport to the mimic, you gain several seconds of invisibility.

They took the concept of empowering abilities, and really made each one a worthwhile and unique choice. Even if you don't use one empowered ability, each one still has the ability to be useful in a number of ways.

Warden Karma1 votes

Since the Karma Community is so splitted I think, granting Old Karma a second rework might be the best step to do.

So all in one: New Karma stays new Karma, a new Champion, more based on her originally concept is released.

I know the Name and Background problem here but still it might be the best way.

Karma would be the first Champion to be reworked in two different Champions then.

SilverSquid2 votes

scratches head

I am not really convinced, but you wanna give me a head start on what you imagine it like? I mean, the core difference, the nieche's they fill, the rough skill setup?

Evenstar1 votes

Uh oh, Shyndora is going to suggest making another Karma again, here we go ._.

Warden Karma1 votes

Says the one who does not even accept another Champion wielding fans in league :P

Evenstar1 votes

I think we can have Fan Karma in league, I just don't think we need to make way for another Karma, it complicates everything and only makes the original Karma fanbase feel even more under prioritized. Why have two Karma when you can have one?

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