Why should I even bother mastering a mechanically complex champion?

SaltyToplaneGoat·Jan 15, 2016·19 votes·1,698 views

I mean, my enemy is just going to pick or or any other badly designed melee ball of stats and win anyways with WAY less effort. Why should I even bother? And it's not like they just kill you, nonono that would be WAY to easy, they also must have the potential to eradicate your entire team while going solo.

The very concept of a melee damage carry is flawed. To be even viable he need a gapcloser ot sticking power - but the moment he sticks he just straight up murders you. If then they take only an absolute minimum of mechanical skill... I have no problem with getting outplayed. That was a opponent's skill and I have to aknownledge that. What I do not tolerate is some dumbass just mashing the right mouse button and raking in free kills because some years ago a certain company sucked at designing melee champs properly.

53 Comments

RISE Shlack123Jan 15, 20167 votes

I know this is somewhat of a salt thread, but here's my two cents anyway:

If you're simply looking to climb as fast as possible, or you're relatively new to the game, then it's better to play less mechanically-intensive champions. If you've hit a plateau in your climbing, or you're having to face people better with champions that strongly counter the easier champs, then you need to learn harder-to-play champions.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 15, 20163 votes

I'm neither new nor am I just "playing for the win no matter what even if it's not even fun for me".

It's just a question that bothers me because it just seems unfair. Why is a champ that requires maybe four functioning braincells to randomly alling potentiall stronger than one that requires skill, strategiy, planning and tons of practice?

Well from a design perspective the problem is easily identified: the strongest damaging move of these champs is spammable(more than once per second), not dodgeable and resourceless. Oh and might as well nuke you for 800 per hit. And as if that is not enough, the entire kit resolves just around making the rightclicking stronger and/or easier.

Maybe if crit wouldn't exist, it would be less of a problem as you could actually react to something like that jumping at your face.

JariJan 15, 20161 votes

In Yi's case, hitting CC screws him over.

In Irelia's case, she benefits from being smacked around. Knockups and knockbacks are not on her passive.

Not to mention the higher you climb, the worse these easy champs become. I see a lot more Yi's in Bronze than I think I would in diamond, because in diamond people know how to fight against you.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 17, 20161 votes

Implying the Yi will just stand there and let himself be hit by the cc I actually need for the enemy mid or ADC.

I just wonder how high I have to climb. I can understand such stuff happening in bronze. Or even in silver. But in gold? Oh comeon...

JariJan 17, 20161 votes

A Yi that is good will wait for the perfect time to go in, usually when you all already blew your CC and got distracted by the other team. Plus you say, "the cc I actually need for the enemy mid or ADC." If Yi's killing you because you used all of your cc on the enemy marksman, then Yi's playing how he should. I believe the better question is, why is all your cc going towards one target?

There's even champions that just decline Yi's assassination easily. Kayle, Kindred, Bard, and Tahm are just a few I can think of quickly that can stop Yi's assassination without exactly having to CC Yi.

Or in the words of your marksman, PEEL!

RISE Shlack123Jan 16, 20161 votes

As frustrating as these champions can be, they do have specific counterplay that you have to learn. And I've been in your shoes thinking that champs like Yi are way too easy and stomp way too hard if fed. But the key is not to feed them in the first place. A couple of kills is one thing, but 5+ is another. Eventually you have to learn how to play around every champion in the game because you'll see them all if you play long enough.

Learn how to counter champions that frustrate you. The ones that are mechanically easy to play have very specific weaknesses that you have to learn how to exploit. What will set you apart from those above and below you in the ranked ladder will be how well you deal with champions like Master Yi or Irelia.

DediguiseJan 15, 20165 votes

Because mechanically challenging champions are fun. Remember fun?

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 15, 20163 votes

I like playing because it's fun, but getting crushed by someone who just puts way less skill than you into the game because he chose the implemented "easy mode" really drains the fun out of my matches...

Lao Fu the TigerJan 15, 20161 votes

To be fair, as far as skill ceiling goes Yi is way way up there. He just so happens to be relatively simple to pick up as well.

Different champs do different things and serve different purposes.

www GOHAM orgJan 15, 20164 votes

mechanically complex champions tend to be more difficult but possess a higher skill cap than the champions you refer to. Thus, while you may be struggling to get the hang of a mechanically complex champion, in the long run you will be able to dominate if you master these such champs. Hence why you do not see Master Yi or Warwick being played in the LCS.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 15, 20161 votes

The problem is, even when mastering said champion, the difference in strenght to the missdesigned easy-buttons of the game is basicially minimal as they have a certain minimum of viability despite their easy use. At the same time you cannot make the complex champ bat-shit OP as that would completly disrupt higher levels of play.

Simply nerfing these champions can only be a temporary solution tho, they all need a rework. And before that they should all be reduced into "Yorick state".

Hayaishi2Jan 15, 20164 votes

Yi should be gutted.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 15, 20161 votes

True words were spoken.

JariJan 15, 20161 votes

You know what's even better words to speak?

A champion under no circumstances should ever suffer a gutting. A champion deemed as a problem by Riot will get nerfs to their kit or an item they commonly build to try and keep them in line. I'm going to put a list down here.

Aatrox Alistar Amumu Anivia Annie Ashe Azir Braum Chogath Ekko Galio Gnar (mega version) Gragas Heimerdinger Irelia Janna JarvanIV Jax Jinx Kindred Leona Lulu Lux Malphite Malzahar Morgana Nami Nautilus Orianna Pantheon Poppy Rammus Renekton Ryze Sejuani Shen Skarner Sona Swain TahmKench Taric Teemo Thresh TwistedFate Udyr Varus Vayne Veigar Velkoz Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing Xerath XinZhao Yasuo Zilean Zyra

Every one of these champs (a few left out because unreliable) can stop Yi in his tracks in performed correctly against him from killing team members with a minion wave 100% stopping it. Take note I'm saying team, not themselves. Then, when Yi is CC'd, he's easy pickings.

Also as of making this comment Wukong's icon is showing up as a filled in square between WW and Xerath.

Remlap1223Jan 15, 20164 votes

Yi needs to be given real counterplay outside of "pick someone with hard CC or get 1v5 pentadunked."

Chrome RavenJan 15, 20163 votes

playing anything vs Garen just makes me reaffirmed that riot is hitler reincarnated.

working my ass off to outtrade as Riven while this piece of shit Garen just presses q and e and runs around me just makes me super happy for riots balance team.

Dominick DestineJan 15, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chrome Raven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-15T04:25:20.995+0000)

playing anything vs just makes me reaffirmed that riot is hitler reincarnated.

Of all the mentioned characters, Garen overwhelmingly has the most counter-play....

Chrome RavenJan 15, 20162 votes

please be bait..

Dominick DestineJan 15, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chrome Raven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T04:49:57.036+0000)

please be bait..

Yours is. Mine wasn't.

YumaS2AstralJan 15, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chrome Raven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-15T04:25:20.995+0000)

playing anything vs just makes me reaffirmed that riot is hitler reincarnated.

working my ass off to outtrade as while this piece of shit just presses q and e and runs around me just makes me super happy for riots balance team.

When Riven is remotely viable, she is oppressive as hell. What you are describing is exactly how most people playing champions other than Garen feel when playing against Riven.

LadyRenlyJan 15, 20162 votes

because SHAME ON YOU for using a simple champ!

If you play one, we will find you, and we will rework you..

The DeckownerJan 16, 20162 votes

yi's level of stupidty is nothing compare to tryndamere.

usually when a yi got fed it's because bot lane were being stupid, but a tryn can just stay top keep farming and do a shit load of dmg with the free crit chance and a bullshit ultimate.

ChocadillyDooJan 15, 20161 votes

I'm a game designer and I strongly agree with what you're saying here. With that said, though, I do think that the characters you have in mind all have updates on the way. I personally wish they would move all the resources they have devoted to new characters onto the re-work team until characters like Yi and the gang are all made to be interesting to play. In the mean time, we just have to endure it.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 15, 20163 votes

The specific champion pool for this group is actually not that big anymore. Irelia Jax MasterYi Tryndamere Shyvana XinZhao Warwick - not all of them are on the same degree of problematic, but all of them are just "righclick and stat nonsense + an occasional gimmic". Sadly not all of them are worked on right now...

I'd rather play against Zed, Riven and Lee - the accursed three according to the boards - at once in a game than against any of these if I'm honest.

Also, as I stated in anothe reply, the very concept of crit is one of the problem's roots. If melee carrys wouldn't have so massive damage spikes they wouldn't be as toxic to the game...

DorkunedAurasJan 15, 20163 votes

You realize of the melee caries you listed, Xin and WW aren't considered such, shyv is borderline, while the other three definitely qualify.

Also, you complained about crit, yet only two of the listed one use crit, while Xin occasionally ish, with Jax and irelia enjoying the occasional Triforce crit.

Mr VulcanatorJan 15, 20161 votes

I honestly don't know how people have fun with Yi considering that he has one ability that he uses in combat.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 15, 20161 votes

Either the illusion of being good or actively abusing the champ for free win - it can't be the champ, for that he is too badly designed.

Baron of BreadJan 15, 20164 votes

If you only use one ability as Yi in combat you are missing out on a good bit of power.

TotalJerkJan 15, 20161 votes

Well timed Alpha strikes and Meditates are the difference between winning and losing a fight against a player that is actually good.

Baron of BreadJan 15, 20161 votes

I don't know Irelia very well so I can't dispute that effectively, but I do know that Yi can be mechanically intense. Sure it doesn't take a whole lot to be reasonably effective on Yi at least at low levels of play, but once you start getting into high levels you can see some impressive moves from Yi.

YumaS2AstralJan 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-01-15T04:16:43.703+0000)

I don't know Irelia very well so I can't dispute that effectively, but I do know that Yi can be mechanically intense. Sure it doesn't take a whole lot to be reasonably effective on Yi at least at low levels of play, but once you start getting into high levels you can see some impressive moves from Yi.

Yi is a champion that is easy to play at a basic level. However, he is hard to master completely.

Compare him to Zed, which is the opposite. To play the basics of Zed is incredibly difficult. However once you learn that part, there is not much else to learn.

I am PacmanJan 15, 20161 votes

This is a bit of a salt thread but I'm also gonna put my two cents in.

"pick someone with hard cc or get 1v5 pentadunked"?

You should always have someone with some form of hard cc on your team, all roles have many champs to choose from with hard cc and practically every support does.

None of the champs mentioned in this thread so far can do shit without either a shit ton of farm or by getting fed, and if its because they are fed then (talking about MasterYi Tryndamere Jax ) they have to be able to do lots of dmg or else they bring nothing else. Sure jax has a bit of utility but these champs are melee adc. They are designed to carry the game if ahead and uncontested.

More complex champs can achieve a lot more when either behind or even and generally can have way more impact on fights. Some great examples are Orianna Azir Ekko Fiddlesticks Thresh Syndra Gragas Gnar . Notice that each of these champs has some form of cc or major damage which can heavily influence a fight even when behind.

There is also the factor of fun, some people find them fun others find more complex champs fun. I personally love Jax (and would argue that he is not to be compared to Yi as he requires some skill.

who even plays half of these champs anymore, I mean maybe they are used in normals more because they cant get their asses hardcountered and they get used more in lower elos because they pubstomp hard when ahead but I honeslty dont remember the last time i saw trynd, shyv, or ww. hell i have only seen xin because my friend played ap xin.

SaiannaJan 15, 20161 votes

Imo it's not that they are badly designed.. It's just how well they work with sated devourer.

So in that case even though you hate and blame "easy" champions while main culprit for that hate is badly designed item.

I've played against lots of Yis and all I can say is: Stun. I know not everyone has reliable stuns or sometimes stuns are used against other targets.. But that's pretty much all you have to do to kill him.

In Irelias case.. She was always that weird tank-assassin-fighter-bruiser-wtf type of champion. You gotta really wreck her hard in lane or/and bully her 3v1

But in the end you dislike sated devourer. SD is friend of all AA-based champions with built in AA bonus damage (like true damage)...

Dominick DestineJan 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-15T02:46:36.192+0000)

The very concept of a melee damage carry is flawed.

Fiora

UirayaJan 15, 20161 votes

Champs like Yi and Katarina who can get roflstomped in lane or counterjungled hard still trip and fall into a triple kill ONCE and suddenly their team is back on top. It's absolutely ridiculous. At no point should a 0/6 Yi be your primary target at all times, but he ALWAYS IS. You either save cc for him or you lose, and that's absurd.

And the worst part is that their mains choose to be scrubs. Bullshit champs like these will never work in any real setting; all they're good for is pubstomping. All they're going to do is win via bullshit until their mmr gets high enough that it doesn't work anymore, and then get salty as fuck and ragequit because they don't know how to play anything else. Choosing to be scrubs, instead of getting better and winning via talent. Why?

HoboMcJoeJan 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Champs like Yi and Katarina who can get roflstomped in lane or counterjungled hard still trip and fall into a triple kill ONCE and suddenly their team is back on top. It's absolutely ridiculous. At no point should a 0/6 Yi be your primary target at all times, but he ALWAYS IS. You either save cc for him or you lose, and that's absurd.

And the worst part is that their mains choose to be scrubs. Bullshit champs like these will never work in any real setting; all they're good for is pubstomping. All they're going to do is win via bullshit until their mmr gets high enough that it doesn't work anymore, and then get salty as fuck and ragequit because they don't know how to play anything else. Choosing to be scrubs, instead of getting better and winning via talent. Why?

If you're blowing everything on an 0-6 yi either he is almost full build or you are doing something wrong.

Also, I used to be a kat main. She's very difficult to play in lane, and if she gets stomped most of the time she stays weak except in really low elo. If she trips and falls into a triple kill, you're also doing something wrong. Even if this does happen, it won't be enough for her to suddenly one shot everybody or anything. The reason I'm not a kat main anymore is because I learned hard champs, which you seem convinced easy champ mains can't do.

The DeckownerJan 16, 20161 votes

kat has manaless harass with q... if she face a melee champ she is a nightmare.

HoboMcJoeJan 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2016-01-16T17:14:04.663+0000)

kat has manaless harass with q... if she face a melee champ she is a nightmare.

Not really. After the zed buffs, he will usually win that lane. A skilled yasuo will beat a kat because of the windwall. The only ad matchup katarina should win is talon and that still isn't a guranteed one. Maybe she does good against varus mid if that is still a thing, but I haven't played a lot of kat recently.

The DeckownerJan 17, 20161 votes

why do u even consider zed a melee champion :(

and yasuo is a direct counterpick.

if u think about kassadin, talon, khazix, and other melee champion i dont remember, they get rekt by kat badly.

HoboMcJoeJan 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H3Xd16ds,comment-id=000d0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-17T00:41:11.414+0000)

why do u even consider zed a melee champion :(

and yasuo is a direct counterpick.

if u think about kassadin, talon, khazix, and other melee champion i dont remember, they get rekt by kat badly.

Talon can win, but you're right that at an equal skill level he would probably lose, although it wouldn't be a stomp.

I haven't seen enough kha mid to really know who would win, but after his buffs it's very possible that he could win.

In what world does katarina counter kassadin? I don't even understand why you would think this. Kassadin counters katarina hard.

The other mid you might be thinking of is varus, and yeah katarina would probably win there.

The DeckownerJan 18, 20161 votes

kha is very easy to poke down, and kassadin dont have his silence anymore while very vulnerable to pokes too.

TotalJerkJan 15, 20161 votes

"Mechanically challenging" champions often have far more options in any given situation than simple ones. Look at Zed or Orianna compared to Warwick or Xin Zhao.

The DeckownerJan 16, 20161 votes

xin zhao can actually insac

MunchCrunchLunchJan 15, 20161 votes

because standing far away and clicking the right button is a lot harder for ranged champions while your team protects you. being a mele carry. your team isn't gonna do shit for you. they are not gonna peel. you go there. you are vulnerable to be killed and crowd controlled. flawed logic

HellioningJan 15, 20161 votes

Because you enjoy playing the champ? Because you hate those kinds of characters? Because there are forms of counterplay and skill besides skillshots and complicated abilities?

DealthJan 15, 20161 votes

I agree that old champions need reworked. I know a lot of people will hate me for this one, but I think Lux is in desperate need of one. Her 3-second snare is too frustrating especially when she starts to snowball and can 3-shot you after landing one skill shot.

Master Yi actually has a decent skill cap though. That doesn't mean hes to play (hes not), but he has a lot of potential. He can 1v5 if he uses his Q and W correctly to avoid all burst damage (the cooldown reset on kills helps with this).

Master Yi used to be (even more) terribly designed. He had a 100% AP ratio on his Q as well 400% AP ratio on his w... It looked something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H35fns14HXM

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 17, 20161 votes

Ah yes I remember AP Yi. A champion as rotten as his playerbase back then... it seems like some champions really seem to cause toxic behavior in adition to theit toxic play style...

WyrmbladeJan 15, 20161 votes

What's funny is that if you look at OP's match history, he made this thread directly after losing to Yi.

Summonerrr 1Jan 17, 20161 votes

The real problem is riot acknowledged that they balance more for High-Level play than for the average player.

Very. Bad. Move.

When you admit that you balance more for competitive play and less for fun, when you realize you have a large majority that plays for fun/recreation more than pure competition, you must also realize you have a very large constituency of people that are pissed off because of how you make your decisions.

If you don't realize this you're either dumb or someone's controlling you that doesn't care.

You tell me which one is Riot.