are just the three that come to mind right now, but you know something that's funny? These are the champions people tend to classify as the worst champions to play against across almost all levels. These three champions, no matter the elo, are almost universally hated.
There's obviously something with the design of the "Fighter Assassin" class combo that makes them extremely frustrating to play against. Any thoughts?
ZT Xperimentor5 votesHecarim? I thought you were going to mention riven or fiora or ekko; any of those 3 I'd say are more frustrating to deal with than the horse. And each of those 3 have similar playstyles to fizz & yasou too. I concur on the other two though; sustain damage, burst damage, mobility, crowd control, safety, & the ability to deny counterattacks.
Michael Sykes1 votesthe only problem with Hecarim in my opinion is his extremely good early game pressure - and maybe that his e can't be flashed
TequilaZombie1 votesYou can't flash out of Auto Attacks man. It's like asking to be able to flash out of Udyr's bear stance.
Michael Sykes1 votesyeah I know. The e mechanic works with an aa (but as far as I know, it has an on-hit too?), but that feels somehow unfair because it is so important
TequilaZombie1 votesIt deal bonus on hit damage (I wonder if it could possibly be abused with a 
) and knocks up away. But it is still an auto attack. The fact that it is so important is why you can't flash away from it.
Otherwise riot could just make it as a mix between a Rammus Q and a Sejuani Q maybe? You activate the ability, get the mov speed, press it again you dash towards your cursor damaging the first champion struck?
Michael Sykes1 votesThat would be a good idea - I am not sure if there are different mechanics in the game that could make the ability feel similar (only one activation).
At least I am sure that a flashable Hecarim e would make him a (more) balanced champion
TequilaZombie1 votesThey could do what they did to Fizz Q, but it doesn't really allows you to change targets.
Michael Sykes1 votesa German caster, "Letsreadsmallbooks" had the same idea. It would be interesting to see which mechanics Riot is able to include
TequilaZombie2 votesMaybe implement a point of no return on his Auto. He gets the mov speed and works just as it does today, once he gets in a 300 range of the target champion he dashes towards it, unable to change it. Then they can apply the Fizz's Q mechanic without changing how he works.
LordGeovanni1 voteswish you could flash out of a 2k crit from the adc but unless its kalista its not happening also if you get enough speed to out run the projectile for a while it disappears and applies the moment you slow down idk if wind wall or unbreakable can even block it at that point
ZT Xperimentor2 votesI always thought of hecarim as a reverse jax, strong early game but falls off late game. He seems most effective in drawn out fights, not the 5 second team wipes we've been playing since preseason. That's why I inquired about him being labeled abusive.
Michael Sykes1 votesyes, and it is nice that there are strong early game champions and those with a stronger lategame - it makes LoL more interesting. But at the moment he is too oppressive, while Riven, Fiora and Ekko are relatively weak
ZT Xperimentor1 votesBut what about when you catch up in items & levels? Hecarim isn't nearly as problematic is he? I'd still rather fight a fed hecarim than the cheapness that is fiora & ekko; at least hecarim can't outright prevent you from being able to defend yourself, at least hecarim couldn't build total tank and still solo entire teams.
Michael Sykes1 voteswell, Hecarim goes tanky after Trinity Force and still does a lot of damage. Of course a lategame-oriented champ like Fiora scales better, and of course Ekko can be very frustrating to play against, although he falls off (both ap and tank Ekko are early-midgame-oriented) - but Hecarim can snowball a whole team so hard that the game ends before i.e. the adc becomes strong - at least when the Hecarim player knows what he can do. And at the moment he is slightly too good at doing this
ZT Xperimentor1 votesAny champion can snowball their team as long as they communicate & cooperate; which is often a rare thing these days since most people play for themselves. And if a triforce is all he has for offense, then he's only threatening at melee range. The similarity here is that hecarim is mobile, yes he can gank fast, but he can't be in 2 places at once. Like malphite, don't group up; either split-push against him, counter initiate when he ults in, or focus him down before he can initiate.
Michael Sykes2 votesI totally agree with you - and I never said that there don't exist counter-tactics. It just can be very frustrating in soloqueue, when the team does not work together perfectly. Additionally you have to admit that he is a contested pick in pro play where the teams are well-coordinated - but obviously because of his backline dive and his ult
ZT Xperimentor2 votesI wasn't saying hecarim isn't a problem either; I was saying that he isn't as abusive as others when they get similarly ahead. However I'm never impressed with the 'pro' games, that's all they've always done, is abuse whatever mechanic & gimmick they can find. Yet one commonality I've noticed over the years, is mobility; trying to make plays with ghost & flash, picking the most sticky or elusive champions (leesin, kassadin, so-on), ext. A more obvious champion for that difference of elite vs normal play, is kalista; she can practically tag team all 5 enemies in the esports scene; but in conventional play she's either oppressive or worthless, partially depending on her teammates, as well as player skill. Since she's such an unusual marksmen, most people don't want to take the time to master her, but because of her kit's slight reliance on a teammate, some supports don't want to deal with that either.
Michael Sykes1 votesyeah, that is actually true - although I think that Fiora is not a good example, since she is easy to shut down during the early-midgame compared to other champions. I mean, you could also take Vayne as an example, she has a similar winrate and scaling - when both are ahead, they are not very fun to play against. But seriously, it is rare that those champions get ahead early.
of course the pro's to like mobility - it offers great safety and objective control, jumping over walls or just disengaging is an essential part for them. Champions like Azir have been nerfed to the point they are not really viable in the normal play because of their strengths in pro play
ZT Xperimentor2 votesI'd say fiora is easier to shut down in teamfights than anywhere else; as a 1v1 is a chore since she can entirely negate one of your abilities. Yet I'd say fiora scales harder than vayne as she can increase her percent hp true damage; but like ekko is still frustratingly effective even built tanky. You'd be surprised; remember riot was getting bored with people taking their time, and forcefully sped it up. You die as first blood, generally you're returning to lane 2 levels behind ontop of being short 500 gold; and towers aren't nearly as protective as they used to be either.
When there's that kind of discrepancy on a champion between 'pro' games (showing off insane strength) vs common games (feeling laughably weak); the champion should be up for a rework. Because clearly the champion design is faulty, it's not hitting the right marks. Example, they buffed leesin for what, the fifth time, entirely because he wasn't being successful in normal games.
RcGjWO640w2 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H0wkEvEA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-21T15:24:58.805+0000)
Hecarim? I thought you were going to mention riven or fiora or ekko; any of those 3 I'd say are more frustrating to deal with than the horse. And each of those 3 have similar playstyles to fizz & yasou too. I concur on the other two though; sustain damage, burst damage, mobility, crowd control, safety, & the ability to deny counterattacks.
That's my point, though. It's like almost all fighter/assassins feel flatly impossible to deal with. Ekko, Riven, Irelia, Fiora, Kha'zix, Rengar and way more. All of them fighter/assassins and all of them feel like absolute nightmares to deal with. Even some of the Fighter/Tanks like Darius, Garen, Hec, Aatrox just feels so futile to ever try to fight them.
Out of curiosity, I started looking up tips and guides on how to deal with them and most of them literally follow the same tune of, "Don't let them get ahead", "Don't give them an opportunity to use their bullshit" and "Stay away and pray you can outplay them".
It's hilarious that the entire ideology surrounding playing against these champions can be summed up in the phrase, "hope that they can't".
TequilaZombie1 votesWell, the whole point of Juggernauts like Darius and Garen is the Kite or Die gameplay.
Hec just abuses his early damage burst. Deny him that early on and he's a watered down Malphite when it comes to late game.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesAh alright, the way you worded it was like those 3 in particular stood out significantly instead of the group. I agree the assassin fighter combination champions are a chore to deal with even if they're behind. I've made a comment a while back mentioning how futile it is playing against these frustrating assassins, along the lines of ''even if you're ahead, you struggle to keep a lead because they snowball so easily and significantly''. I'd say this class of hyper champions should be entirely reworked, they should have damage, mobility, or safety; not more than 1 of those three.
The tanks like garen, darius ext, I don't think are as troublesome due to how much excessive armor/resistance penetration & burst damage there is available this season. The majority of people that exclusively complain about tanks, forget there's items that reduce healing ontop of the piercing itemsets.
GuardAbuse2 votesWell he's usually okay except right now trinity force is broken on him. I do hate Fizz and Yasuo though. I don't think champs should have so much safety, burst, mobility, and sustained damage. They're too well rounded. Having a little defense is fine on an assassin 9kat w and dmg reduction on e), but yasuo's shield AND windwall together are not fair. One or the other please x.x
ZT Xperimentor2 votesOh yeah I forgot that has been a problem before, the triforce I mean. There's been a few champions that were too bursty with a triforce in the past, which is part of why it's stats are fairly low; frankly I'd say it's passive effect should have a 5 second limitation on it's passive effect, not a 2 second one, that's quite spamable. I concur about assassins having too much safety though; the whole point of risk vs reward is to be punished!
Ralanr3 votesHecarim is actually fighter/tank. Fizz is assassin/fighter.
You got Yasuo correct though.
The combo combines high damage with dueling power, which is incredibly frustrating to fight sometimes.
RcGjWO640w1 votesHecarim is actually fighter/tank. Fizz is assassin/fighter.
Hecarim's burst damage is crazy high right now and Fizz is a Fighter/Assassin. I didn't really care about the order. It's just the fact that the two class' are together. Hecarim is actually in a really OP spot just because of how impossible it is to actually deal with him.
Ralanr1 votesI'm not saying Hecarim isn't doing a lot of damage now, it's just that your relating factors aren't working in relating them.
Sahn Uzal2 votesHecarim has always dealt a fuck ton of damage though, even before he became ''OP''
I'd put Riven in his spot tbh
EDIT: I'm not claiming Riven is OP, I'm claiming she feels aweful to play against and is hated by many.
Ralanr1 votesShe's actually a fighter/assassin also.
As is Vi, Pantheon, and Irelia.
RcGjWO640w1 votesMy point though. I main Vi jg and rarely do I not just stomp heads with her. Even in a god-awful loss I still end up coming out better than anyone else on my team with her.
RcGjWO640w2 votesWith all of this being said, I'm not going to say at all that these champions are broken. Some of them are definitely overtuned in the current meta, but none truly feel unbeatable. At has been mentioned in other comments, though, counter playing these champions relies more heavily on capitalizing on their mistakes rather than you simply being better.
One thing I think most people can agree on though, is that almost all of these champions don't feel fun to play against, which technically should go against Riot's design philosophy. Fizz is never fun to play against. He's annoying and even if you're 45-0 dumpstering him, there's never a point where you're not muttering under your breath every time he pulls his little combo on you, "fuck Fizz", because that's just how it feels.
Getting ganked by Hecarim or a Vi from fog of war to get combo'ed on and blown to half health before you can even dream of flashing just isn't fun. I admit. I play a ton of Vi. She's my favorite champion in the game, but even I admit that there is no point where you feel like you're having fun playing against her. She's a big, mean bully who's going to CC you for 30 years and pound your shit in. She comes from nowhere. Q+Flash+R to cross like half the map in 3 seconds and be locked on your ass preparing to dunk you straight into the nearest dumpster if she can, especially if she has help.
It would be interesting to wonder about changes Riot could make to make these champions more fun and less frustrating without taking away their goals and power. Maybe it's just a dream, though. More than likely with this role being consistently hated to play against, it's just the nature of the beast, as it were.
Critmaster Garen2 votes
There's obviously something with the design of the "Fighter Assassin" class combo that makes them extremely frustrating to play against. Any thoughts?
sure, people only hate playing against fighters ...
QuantumPanther1 votesI've never actually had problems playing against Yasuo. I like playing LeBlanc into him. It works for me because I'm just as mobile as he is, and my CDs are really low as well. TBH, Fizz, Riven, and Irelia have always been the banes of my existence
TequilaZombie2 votes
I couldn't care less about any other champion. Those 3 can ruin my day.
Ralanr2 votesFighting Fiora top as Sion just puts me in a serious mood. No fun allowed.
TequilaZombie3 votesHey, I'll just play some 
to relax. Ok, my Q is completely useless now.
Ok then, 
it is. Ohh look, my third W proc with Thunderlords doesn't do jack shit now? Okay
I'll just play a tankier champion, 
maybe? Never-fucking-mind.
You know what? I'll just farm with 
. Wait what? She counters me?
And that's how I became a mid laner.
Hyperiön1 votesTop lane is literally a farm fest, with who can get the first kill to snowball out of control. Hence why I was never a top main.
Ralanr1 votesYeah...it's either that or sandbag the lane
TequilaZombie1 votesWe just punch each other while in reality we both just want to sit and farm.
Ralanr1 votesUnless you're a top lane snowballer like 
etc. Then they're too focused on trying to kill you.
Vekkna1 votesI honestly just don't understand
On his ganks, he leaps out of the fog with some kind of knockback and you're just dead before you have control of your champ. You look at the death recap and there's huge mixed damage from like 3 skills. I don't understand how he's doing 3 abilities worth of damage in a single dash animation.
Squidward Dab1 votesDid he have red buff and spirit of the dread on cuz that's probably why there was a mix of AP, AD, and true damage but yea fuck Hecarim stupid horse
LU Vanilla Rice 1 votesThey are universally hated because people don't know how to counter them properly and feel they are "op" because they can kill you quickly. It can be quite frustrating if you are playing a champ that is countered by them, but proper counterplay and ganks can make up for it. People hate them because they think they are "op", but in reality they aren't.
Vekkna2 votesThis subclass (eg Yasuo, Panth, Yi, Lee, Fizz, Riven, Fiora, Jax) is universally hated because
You can't efficiently counterbuild combinations of hybrid damage, % health damage, and armor shred
Your success or failure depends more on their mistakes than on your good play
They can usually initiate trades and negate retaliation
You never really know when you can beat them in a fight; it looks like a safe engage or a winning fight, but then they go untargetable, cc lock you, blow you up, negate your ult, or start healing for absurd amounts.
Their mechanics sometimes win fights by accident, eg Panth's shield refreshing right before taking a turret shot that would have killed him, or Fizz waveclearing with E at the moment you flash-Tibbers from the fog. There are a lot of those moments, and they feel completely illegitimate.
LU Vanilla Rice 1 votesOkay, I can't tell if you yourself think this subclass of champions is overpowered, or if you're objectively trying to list characteristics of them (some of which are funny, by the way :D). Judging by your diction, I'd say the former. But, basically they are hated because people think they're overpowered.
Vekkna1 votesDo you know what the word "diction" means?
I don't think they're inherently overpowered, just inherently frustrating.
LU Vanilla Rice 1 votesI do know what the word means, and if you do too then you would understand what I am talking about and why I said that.
Putting that aside, however, I was just making sure. They can be frustrating at times, but it is a lot less frustrating if you know how to play against them.
Moesnd1 votesHecarim is not a constantly complained about and problamatic champion. He is just currently strong. Hecarim and yasuo are in two completely different boats
Critmaster Garen1 votesHecarim is not a constantly complained about and problamatic champion. He is just currently strong. Hecarim and yasuo are in two completely different boats
the reason why yasuo is perceived as a frustrating champion to play against is mostly because he has very complicated mechanics. if you want to know how to counterplay him in a duel, youll have to at least read up on his abilities and pay a higher than usual amount of attention to small details. (like keeping in mind which units he already dashed over, counting the stacks on his q, remembering the fixed dash distance on his e).
a lot of people dont even read the tooltips of the abilities for the champions theyre playing themselves.
but this is not really the fault of the champion. design wise, yasuo is generally regarded as a masterpiece of a champion, at least by a lot of higher ranked players. both visually and mechanically.
Moesnd2 votesThat has nothing to do with my point. Yasuo is constantly complained about (im not complaining about him i think hes balanced) while op says that hecarim is universally hated and the worst to play against. Just because a champion is a bit strong or fotm does not mean they are a problamatic, cancerous champion